Tf Revisited

InexorableInexorable Join Date: 2002-09-28 Member: 1360Members
<div class="IPBDescription">looking back at old changes</div> Waaaay back in the initial release version of NS, Sentries were generally seen as insanely dominant. I'ld be hard pressed to say why, other than the fact marines could often seem to field 30 sentries, and HMG/HA marines constantly.

In any case, this perception of dominance led to the adjustment on the TF that if it went down, so did all the nearby turrets. My personal feelings on the matter was that sentries were seen as powerful simply because nobody knew how to handle them, after all the game had only been public for a few short weeks.

Now that the majority of players have gotten the feel of the Kharaa down (and hopefully there's still a few of us left who remember the good ol' days when you needed to take down all the sentries before you could yell out "X location clear!"), do you feel it's still a good idea? I can empathize with anyone that feels sentry farms are hard to take down with 1 hive, especially on pub servers. But I've had the feeling ever since this change that sentries are basically 19 RP lumps of coal for all the good they do. You can spend 150+ RP to keep out one Skulk (5 turrets MIN), or I can spend 6 RP on Cara for 3 Skulks and take down your entire sentry farm in less than 30 seconds.

Am I the only one who misses the old days?
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Comments

  • Frogg2Frogg2 Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4867Members, Constellation
    Yep TF+Turrets pretty useless since it doesnt take much for a few skulks to take one TF down
  • ThansalThansal The New Scum Join Date: 2002-08-22 Member: 1215Members, Constellation
    TF+Turrets+PLAYER = hard

    seing how as automated bases are somthing that Flayra didn't like the idea of, you are not suposed to set up an TF and turrets in a hive and then forget about it, you have to freaken watch em or else you will loose (that was the point)
  • IncitatusIncitatus Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4316Members
    Isn't it more intuitive or 'realistic' to have the turrets go down with the TF?
  • OlljOllj our themepark-stalking nightmare Fade Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10696Members
    the tf just makes ammo and gives turrets its intelligence, energy.
  • Ben128Ben128 Join Date: 2002-06-21 Member: 808Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TF+Turrets+PLAYER = hard

    seing how as automated bases are somthing that Flayra didn't like the idea of, you are not suposed to set up an TF and turrets in a hive and then forget about it, you have to freaken watch em or else you will loose (that was the point) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well put dude. THEY are not <b>supposed</b> to be make and forget bases. They are just a defense, you need to have people to have them secure. And a mix of mines and turrets are best anyway. I usually go for a TC with 3 turrets in triangle formation with mines around the tf and near the turrets.
  • InexorableInexorable Join Date: 2002-09-28 Member: 1360Members
    Don't think I'm going for place and forget bases... but in a lot of cases completely sealing off a room with CCs is cheaper and more effective than a sentry field.

    You're usually going to have to build about 6 sentries to cover any mini-base (That's just minimal coverage, fewer sentries and you're probably going to have a blind spot), but the Kharaa are only going to have to destroy 1-2 of them in order to bring the whole thing down. So a minimal firebase costs 139 RP, but only has something like 2000 HP. And that's just what I'm getting at. The 50 turret carpets of yore are obviously too strong, but is is possible that taking down SG fields is too easy now?

    That is an interesting idea with ammo though. I'm sure it would be incredibly difficult to code, but if all the sentries had a bit of ammo stored in them which the TF replaced constantly, that would allow the TF to go down for a short period of time without the entire field shutting down immediately. If you couldn't get another TF up quickly all your sentries would soon run out of ammo, but at least it would be more of a deterrent than the "Kill one sentry and yell 'Hive X is clear' over voicecomm" of today.
  • QuestionQuestion Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9180Members
    Turrets ARE 19 res lumps of coal.

    Turret accuracy is SO bad a skulk can run through a room with say......6 turrets in it,and it wotn get hit.Okay,so its only for "deterrance".

    But its just TOO easy to take down sentry turrets.....granted,theres supposed to be a marine there,guarding the place,but its generally very easy to kill him first without getting hit by the turrets (just keep moving and they can hardly hit you).Lets say 2-3 carapace level 3 skulks,they rush in,take out the marine guard and at LEAST manage to severly damage the place before reinforcements pour in through the portal.

    I find it ironic how 0 res marines arent supposed to kill 54 res fades,but 0 res skulks are supposed to kill 100+ res outposts.

    A carapace level 3 skulk can take a turret down to red HP just by sitting there and chomping on it.What happens if the skulk strafes and bites?Goodbye turret.

    I would have to say.....OCs > Turrets.Sure you cant make 50 of them in one place,but you rarely see 50 turrets in one place in REGULAR games anymore.OCs just do more damage,have more HP,can be auto-healed and combined with webs......although turrets are hitscan,you can hardly see a difference in accuracy between OC and Turrets.

    Turrets arent worth 19 res IMHO.More like 15.THEN you might be able to get enough turrets to prove a serious threat.
  • Harry_S_TrumanHarry_S_Truman Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9568Members
    Yep, I agree 100%, turrets are basically worthless. I've been meaning to do a quick caluclation in some games to see what % of kills they actually get. The saddest part is that they are completely vulnerable to a 0 rp skulk, whereas "walls of lame" are more than a match for any 0 rp Marine.

    OC's are much better than Turrets. Make Turrets independent of the factory again, that's the BIG drawback. It's a hinderance enough that you have to build the factory to make the turrets, but why should you need it after they are built? Then if the skulks want to strafe bite each turret down, let em....but it shouldnt be a free ride with the TF.

    I too think this was too hasty of a change in the system.
  • ThansalThansal The New Scum Join Date: 2002-08-22 Member: 1215Members, Constellation
    look, if a skulk manages to kill the marine and then take out the TF then the marines didn't play right. When that marine dies/the base gets attacked multiple marines should be showing up really soon or else you deserver to loose it, it is the way Flay wanted bases to run.


    Also if a skulk can take down a mrine with out getting hit, shame on the marine, he should have had himself fully coverd with sentry fire and he should be able to track a skulk well enugh so that the turets would take it down. Meh what ever
  • hoju2hoju2 Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6873Members
    I think that to keep the TF and <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> 's viable, there should be upgrades you can purchase at the Proto/Arms Lab that make them more accurate or hurt more or something, like the Turret upgrade system in Team Fortress. This should be balanced so that the Marines will be upgrading their turrets at the same time the Aliens are getting Lvl 2. abilities like Umbra, which makes turrets "basically 19 RP lumps of coal"
  • KMOKMO Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7617Members
    Arms Lab weapon upgrades do upgrade sentry damage.
  • XCanXCan Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5904Members, Constellation
    I would say a TF with 3 turrets go down MUCH easier to a skulk than a single OC to a marine. It takes what 6 bites for the skulk to bite down 1 turret and that leaves the TF completely bare. And there are special tricks that the skulks can use to bite down this turret without getting hit. (no it's not an abuse)
  • TenSixTenSix Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7932Members
    Turrets arent useless, its just people rely on them WAY to much. They DO stop skulks and lurks, you can't kill a TF as a skulk or lurk before the turrets kill you. If you put the TF in the open in a bad spot, and dont have it covered on all sides, then it deserves to be taken down.

    Also, I think of them more as an assist then as a defense. LMG + Turrets firing at something do more damage then just the LMG, therefor it makes it easier to kill things that come into that area.

    Also think of it this way: If its required to have a TF to put down turrets in the area, then why on earth would the turrets be able to function WITHOUT the TF? There would be no reason to mandate a TF before turrets.
  • civman2civman2 Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6116Members, Constellation
    TenSix, by your logic, If I kill your observatory your motion tracking should go away, and your PGs should stop working, and if I kill your chair, do the spawns stop spawning?

    I think that the two changes suggested in this thread that would have the most positive effect on gameplay are:

    A: Reduce turret cost. In 1.04 TFs went down from 25 to 20, a good start, but 5 res off of a 120+ res outpost isn't much. Make turrets cost 16 or 15. That means you can get like one more turret for every five. This will just give these outward posts like one more turret to shoot at the skulk, or a welder to heal them.

    B: Prototype lab turret upgrade. I like this one. I've always thought the P-type lab needed more stuff in it. A 40-50 res upgrade that made the turrets track better (maybe spin faster?) would be very good. Part of the reason a skulk can strafe around a turret or run through a farm is cuz the turrets don't track too fast. Make them spin faster and i guarentee you'll see a noticeable impact on the effect of your turrets.
  • TempusTempus Join Date: 2003-01-21 Member: 12540Members
    Turrets are NOT useless. People don't like to use them anymore because they are more concentrated on rushing. But Marines alone are not enough to defend a hive or base, just as turrets alone are not enough. You need both.

    And turrets should not be expected to defend a res node. In fact, turrets should only be somewhere where there's a phase gate. That usually means the base, a hive, or an important forward position.
  • ZennZenn Join Date: 2003-02-01 Member: 12970Members
    edited February 2003
    This is funny, obviously most of the posters here are the types who stand in the marine tunnels saying "go aliens guys, geez!" while never actually going aliens themselfs.

    If anything, turret farms are TOO powerful right now. If you make the turrets work without the TF, you'd never see aliens win another game. If I was the comm, I'd cap about 4-5 res towers, and just start turreting my way to the hives like there was no tomorrow, and if they didn't have at least 3 fades, there would be nothing the aliens could do about it. I play aliens a lot, mostly cause I don't like waiting in the cramped marine line with 7 other people and would rather have some fun, and I can say, from personal experience, that turrets farms are damn near impossible to take down if the comm has any idea what he is doing. I like the way turrets work right now personally, they are suppose to be helping fire, not 5 turrets that defend perfectly at all costs. If anything, I'd like to see the cost of the TF increased again to 25.

    If you make turrets too strong, you don't give aliens a chance to ever stop the 2 hive lockdown, which is nearly impossible to stop as it is. Moreover, you don't give skulks a chance to do ANYTHING once turrets go up...bringing up the before mentioned "turret crawl".

    Keep it the way it is.
  • Digital-LimitDigital-Limit Join Date: 2003-01-20 Member: 12501Members
    I just think turrets cost waaaaay too much... EG. 19 + 19 = 38 which also = >TF. To appropriatly cover the TF in itself you need 3 turrets... if you have to spend more than the TF to not even have full coverage yet, you have a bad deal. It is almost a waste these days to even bother with TFs. All they do is act as a distraction on pubs from the aliens destroying your phase -_-
  • HeistHeist Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7922Members
    Although turrets are somewhat ineffective against skilled alien players, they are quiet valuable as a deterrent. When placed correctly they can hold a base for valuable seconds (say 20 - 30) and allow marines to scramble in defense.
  • StormLiongStormLiong Join Date: 2002-12-27 Member: 11569Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Heist+Feb 11 2003, 05:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Heist @ Feb 11 2003, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Although turrets are somewhat ineffective against skilled alien players, they are quiet valuable as a deterrent. When placed correctly they can hold a base for valuable seconds (say 20 - 30) and allow marines to scramble in defense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That is of course when marines DO listen to you and realize the outpost is being taken down. I think most comms on pub servers really on turretss cos they cant totally rely on marines to be phasing in time when the mass skulk rush comes.

    The way i overcome this when I comm is to try to anticipate a mass skulks rush by looking at my minimap (when it works and I remember to look at it ;p) and see where most of teh red dots are going. When I feel they are heading to an outpost with a phase, i quickly tell my marines to start phasing ther fast.
  • os_mongoos_mongo Join Date: 2003-02-06 Member: 13197Members
    but why make it so that aliens can hide inside the turret factory... that's just plain silly get rid of that and it seems fine to me.
  • Vertigo-1Vertigo-1 Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6483Members
    How's this for turret cost?

    2x the number of marine players. Maybe a minimum cost of 10.

    That's really the most important factor in all this, because I've played in large and small servers and the difference in turreting is clear. If the marines can spare one guy to sit in a turret field and maintain it, that base will be nearly impossible to break. If the marines are so short on players they can hardly assemble a scouting team, they're gonna need a lot of turrets, because the repairman ain't coming for a while.

    The exact numbers would need to be tweaked, but some variance could give marines help they desperately need in small games, and make a handicap for the larger games they tend to win most often.
  • HeistHeist Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7922Members
    I think the problem with a dynamic cost.. other than the coding.. is that a true balance would be impossible. The number of players changes frequently and you could exploit this by leaving for the ready room and coming back in after the tf is built.
  • OrcristOrcrist Join Date: 2002-12-18 Member: 11050Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--civman2+Feb 11 2003, 04:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (civman2 @ Feb 11 2003, 04:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> TenSix, by your logic, If I kill your observatory your motion tracking should go away, and your PGs should stop working, and if I kill your chair, do the spawns stop spawning?

    I think that the two changes suggested in this thread that would have the most positive effect on gameplay are:

    A: Reduce turret cost. In 1.04 TFs went down from 25 to 20, a good start, but 5 res off of a 120+ res outpost isn't much. Make turrets cost 16 or 15. That means you can get like one more turret for every five. This will just give these outward posts like one more turret to shoot at the skulk, or a welder to heal them.

    B: Prototype lab turret upgrade. I like this one. I've always thought the P-type lab needed more stuff in it. A 40-50 res upgrade that made the turrets track better (maybe spin faster?) would be very good. Part of the reason a skulk can strafe around a turret or run through a farm is cuz the turrets don't track too fast. Make them spin faster and i guarentee you'll see a noticeable impact on the effect of your turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Both sound like good ideas IMHO... But on the other hand, the Marine side is designed for defense (the players), so in some way this sides buildings should be less offensive & more offensive (siege turret), and the marine buildings more defensive (OC's are a **** to take down...) as skulks are quite offensive. Make sense?
  • ZennZenn Join Date: 2003-02-01 Member: 12970Members
    edited February 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--civman2+Feb 11 2003, 04:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (civman2 @ Feb 11 2003, 04:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> TenSix, by your logic, If I kill your observatory your motion tracking should go away
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sounds good to me, you kill a D chamber (and only 3 are up), aliens lose a level of carapace. I always thought taking down Obs and Arms Lab should be more important to the game, as it stands, once the Arms Lab finishes upgrading to full, most GOOD comms, recycle it for res. You should lose the abilities on marines if you lose the buildings, would make the lone skulk base rush better, would balance out bigger games more, damn, I like this idea, lol.
  • OrcristOrcrist Join Date: 2002-12-18 Member: 11050Members
    The manual explains it otherwise - it's an upgrade to the ships technology.
  • ZennZenn Join Date: 2003-02-01 Member: 12970Members
    Hear that?

    Notice to all comms- build two arms labs, upgrade quickly, then recycle them both. Happy hunting.
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited February 2003
    (offtopic) You need an Arms Lab to drop Grenade Launchers.

    (ontopic) Turrets are going to be tweaked in 1.1; my personal opinion is to remove their dependence on the Factory. We'll let you know.

    (edit) The argument that 3 turrets + 1 player = HARD is actually a point AGAINST the current system. Flayra doesn't want NS to be a passive game - it may be fun, but not as fun as assaulting a hive. Flay would rather not force either team to NOT be where the action is.
  • ZennZenn Join Date: 2003-02-01 Member: 12970Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(offtopic) You need an Arms Lab to drop Grenade Launchers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Didn't know that.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(ontopic) Turrets are going to be tweaked in 1.1; my personal opinion is to remove their dependence on the Factory.  We'll let you know.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Then you guys best upgrade skulk bite to about 500 damage, or Turret farms will never fall, just my feeling on it...
  • Boy_WonderBoy_Wonder Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8226Members
    Or better yet this totaly **** this game up and make every sentry as good as the TFC Sentry. Hello! No matter how hard things are or easy we learn to get past each challenge. Unless its too insane. Other then that if you practice and put your mind to it you can do more **** then you expected. Honestly folks the human race learns to adapt fast at a hard paced lvl, try it and stop bitching!
  • Silver_FoxSilver_Fox Spammer Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 34Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    bah

    sentries are a joke now.

    all I can say is "You reap what you sow" - enjoy it guys
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