blah ok yeah I forgot about damage absorbed by the armor and just did the straight math of the rest, my mistake there. The fact still remains that a skulk with full celerity can be as effective(if not more in some situations) as a carapace skulk....sure you may not be able to do it at this given time. Then again think about how often you do it? i imagine you(from the way you speak and many others in the community) rarely just go celerity skulk and the few times you do you havent given it time to adjust to it...merely still trying to play as a carapaced skulk. Simply saying Carapace skulk is the only effective method because you personally have only had luck with it is a very closed minded view on things.
<!--QuoteBegin--Wildcard+Feb 16 2003, 04:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wildcard @ Feb 16 2003, 04:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> blah ok yeah I forgot about damage absorbed by the armor and just did the straight math of the rest, my mistake there. The fact still remains that a skulk with full celerity can be as effective(if not more in some situations) as a carapace skulk....sure you may not be able to do it at this given time. Then again think about how often you do it? i imagine you(from the way you speak and many others in the community) rarely just go celerity skulk and the few times you do you havent given it time to adjust to it...merely still trying to play as a carapaced skulk. Simply saying Carapace skulk is the only effective method because you personally have only had luck with it is a very closed minded view on things. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, celerity is NEVER better than carapace. It is <b><i><u><span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>NOT</span></u></i></b> a play style. You <b><i><u><span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>CANNOT</span></u></i></b> dodge enough bullets which would otherwise hit with your pretty celerity. Just like sensory, movement just does not cut it for a first chamber. Sure you can win with it, but only against a stupid/bad enemy team. Ok, you might classify an average player as not stupid, but the average player is stupid IMO. Sure it CAN work against average and worse players, but it will NEVER work in a pug or clan match setting, or even a server with a bunch of good regulars.
Wow, that post provokes a part of me that wants to take a large blunt object and smash it into a certain monkey's face...but we've gone through many o' thread with that same issue and it has gotten us no where except to clarify the fact that monkey is hell bent on forcing everybody to use defense first over and over again. I think we all get your point, but generalizations like <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, celerity is NEVER better than carapace.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> then putting down sensory is horrible to put in these forums. Ok then, in your eyes it works against stupid/bad teams. So let us use it agaisnt our "stupid/bad" teams and save us the pain from hearing you scream defense. It (meaning varied chamber order) obviously works and is enjoyable for a lot of us so stop making your "concrete facts" trying to ruin our game. Not everyone feels the same way so stop forcing your ideals on us.
By the way, I am NOT a sensory/movement crusader that feels that defense is horribly inadequate. Defense works quite well, and since that's what almost all servers do nowadays, I'm all but forced to use it all the time. I repeat- I use defense, I like defense, I DON'T like brash generalizations and direct put downs on things that you may see as less viable, but obviously others feel different and you refuse to recognize it, inferring they are less of a player than you. So cut it out.
Amen
(waiting for the loaded response pointing out my fatal errors and how I must play with "n00bs" and once again forcing DEFENSE ONLY down my throat)
Last time I checked, I never told anyone that they have to play with a certain order, but it is factual that a certain order is best.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...but we've gone through many o' thread with that same issue and it has gotten us no where except to clarify the fact that monkey is hell bent on forcing everybody to use defense first over and over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, anyone with any common sense realizes that sens and movement are not as viable first chambers. If you dont like reality, then by all means, stay off in your dream world.
I say what I say to enlighten those who want to win, and also to ignorant people who believe that mov or sens are the best choices for first chamber.
If you play a skulk correctly both Movement and Sensory are viable first chambers(Sure it makes it harder to make WoL's OMG NoooooO!1111), a cloaked skulk hanging from the ceiling is 10x as effective as a carapaced skulk rushing the marines. Hell Celerity works better for ambushing than Carapace does.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cregore+Feb 16 2003, 07:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cregore @ Feb 16 2003, 07:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you play a skulk correctly both Movement and Sensory are viable first chambers(Sure it makes it harder to make WoL's OMG NoooooO!1111), a cloaked skulk hanging from the ceiling is 10x as effective as a carapaced skulk rushing the marines. Hell Celerity works better for ambushing than Carapace does. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Negative. A cloaked skulk is less effective than a carapace skulk waiting to the side of a doorway for the marines to walk though. With sensory you have half the hitpoints, and you gain just a portion of a second of reaction time. Celerity makes you a tiny bit faster, which is NOWHERE near as good as living as long. D->M->S (or even just skip the s and still be able to place DCs or MCs if the marines retake a hive)...
So you're saying being invisible and waiting for the marines to pass is worse than being visible and in plain view?
If the marines are as good as the ones you claim to be playing with... Cloak would be far better because they could look right at you and miss you, if you had Carapace they'd chew you up.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cregore+Feb 16 2003, 07:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cregore @ Feb 16 2003, 07:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you're saying being invisible and waiting for the marines to pass is worse than being visible and in plain view?
If the marines are as good as the ones you claim to be playing with... Cloak would be far better because they could look right at you and miss you, if you had Carapace they'd chew you up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No. You have it all wrong. -See with sensory, you HAVE to hide in an out of the way spot, and not in the middle of the passage in order to not be seen. Skulk waits for marines to move a bit and think the room is clear. Skulk rushes the tiny distance to the marines, marines hear, turn, and start shooting. 9 hits to kill skulk right in the middle of the marines. -Carapace skulk hides by doorway, listens for marines about to come around the corner, skulk jumps out right when they are about to get through. 19 hits to kill skulk right in the middle of the marines.
Now, you tell me what is better. 19 hits to die or 9. Yeah, carapace > cloaking.
Then if the comm scans (moron if he did not), and cloaked skulks are no longer cloaked... GG aliens.
that's funny, seeing as I almost always near the top with my adren + regen combo...
I laugh at people who don't know when to pick a fight...the only time where I can see carapice being of use is if you're going on a base-hitting run without large reinforcements. With regen 3, if you can get behind structures for just a few seconds, it can bring your health back to a point where you can escape without dying from one shot.
Not to mention the fact that if you die at exactly the right time with regen, you <b>can</b> rise from the dead. It's happened to me twice, the screen went sideways when I died and then went normal again. I was confused, then realized I had regenerated the instant I "died" and was spared. I killed the marine.
In my opinion, a skulk should get any traits available that allow long term survivability when behind lines, as well as escaping quickly. Which is why I take regen, and when two hives goup, adrenaline. I can parasite until I'm near death, then leap away, pulling off 4 leaps in rapid succession, practically flying away. Regenerate and repeat. When every single marine is parasited and you can set up ambushes well in advance, that little extra armor doesn't mean that muchs, at least not to me. But I don't play rambo skulk; the marines expect it more, and killing two or more before they know what the hell is going on really lowers morale and frustrates the commander.
<!--QuoteBegin--Canadianmonk3y+Feb 16 2003, 04:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Canadianmonk3y @ Feb 16 2003, 04:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No. You have it all wrong. -See with sensory, you HAVE to hide in an out of the way spot, and not in the middle of the passage in order to not be seen. Skulk waits for marines to move a bit and think the room is clear. Skulk rushes the tiny distance to the marines, marines hear, turn, and start shooting. 9 hits to kill skulk right in the middle of the marines. -Carapace skulk hides by doorway, listens for marines about to come around the corner, skulk jumps out right when they are about to get through. 19 hits to kill skulk right in the middle of the marines.
Now, you tell me what is better. 19 hits to die or 9. Yeah, carapace > cloaking.
Then if the comm scans (moron if he did not), and cloaked skulks are no longer cloaked... GG aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Didn't I say above a doorway? And with Carapace if you jump in the middle of marines you're gonna be paste in a matter of milliseconds if the marines are any good, with luck you might get one...
Now with Cloak, depending on what the marines are doing you will definately get one, maybe 2(If there's 3-4 there), what I mean is... if they're busy shooting at O towers or something they're not going to be able to hear you; Although the same applies to Carapace, but with Cloak you can hide almost in broad daylight(IE: off to the side of the room and they'll run right by).
The only reason Cloaking is viewed as useless right now is because by the time you get it they marines have Motion Tracking(that's if you follow the standard D>M>S Strat)
Off the start Movement would own, hell Normal skulks without upgrades marines own Unupgraded marines if you surprise them.
It all depends on your playing style, yes it's risky to not do a D Chamber right off the bat... but who cares? I don't play Aliens a lot becuase you do win 70% of the time as alien as long as you have a good Gorge(or good skulks to protect a mediocre gorge)
I probably play marines 60% of the time and aliens 40% and I spend about 1/2 the game as a Fade when I'm alien and the other 1/2 as Skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Last time I checked, I never told anyone that they have to play with a certain order<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then explain this...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, celerity is NEVER better than carapace. It is NOT a play style. You CANNOT dodge enough bullets which would otherwise hit with your pretty celerity. Just like sensory, movement just does not cut it for a first chamber.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but it is factual that a certain order is best.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is nothing "factual" about people's playing styles. Everyone is different, which explains why you like defense first, because you aren't so good with the other two chambers to start off with. Other people however, are able to take a celeritized or cloaked skulk and just rip the marines a new one. Now, just because you can't kill marines without carapace, does not mean that there are skulks who can take down marines with celerity/cloaking.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, anyone with any common sense realizes that sens and movement are not as viable first chambers. If you dont like reality, then by all means, stay off in your dream world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mmmmmmmm, flamebaiting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I say what I say to enlighten those who want to win<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can win with movement or sensory first just fine, so I don't need your "help."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and also to ignorant people who believe that mov or sens are the best choices for first chamber. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, more flambaiting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->See with sensory, you HAVE to hide in an out of the way spot, and not in the middle of the passage in order to not be seen.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or, sit in the middle of the room/hallway, marine bumbs into you, attack twice, dead marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then if the comm scans (moron if he did not), and cloaked skulks are no longer cloaked... GG aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The comm will run out of money eventually, skulks should still be running aboot killing resource nozzles. Also, observatories have 1000 health. For comparison, spawns have 2000 health. Rush the observatory kill it, make the commander waste 25 res on another observatory... An even bigger kick in the sack is when you kill the observatory with motion tracking researching.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, you tell me what is better. 19 hits to die or 9. Yeah, carapace > cloaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only for life expectancy during prolonged firefights...Thats where its advantages end. Luckily, cloaking is designed to make them as short as possible.
Much as it pains me I'm going to have to semi-agree with Monkey.
Sensory while immence fun (we won a game the other day with it against a marine team that wasn't THAT bad.) Just plain isn't as good as carapice because it don't upgrade you in many situations you need it.
Movement is better (as it upgrades you for all the situations your likley to face). But in my oppinion defence is better than movement.
With sensory you are markedly reduced in your ability to assult anything. You HAVE to ambush.
I killed 5 or 6 skulks solo in the corridor outside power subjunction 3 by trapping the aliens gorge in the res node area and then waiting there.
The gorge went nuts the skulks poored in and I blew them away in the long corridor.
They were coming in 3 or so at a time.
Now as soon as the marines start spreading around the map you're not going to have ANY chance of containment cos they can get up phase gates.
So, the question is this:
When the marines have spred out and captured positions with phase gates. How do you remove these phase gate instellations with sensory?
The answer is of course that while its possible sensory helps you not one iota so you may aswell save the 30 res and get the 2nd hive faster.
To what Crisgo said: None of those quotes is me directly saying that people HAVE to use D-M-S. Sure they are truthfully saying that it is better, but it is still not saying that they HAVE to. Oh, and I dont mind if I invite flames. I love idiots replying to these threads with no ideas what they are talking about, it just makes me laugh while I write my replies. Stupid people are funny.
Then I just have to laugh at Cregore's logic... Rofl. Somehow being in the exact same situation with carapace is worse than being in the situation with cloaking... HAHAHA
In case you can't figure it out, situation: Skulk near doorway, listens for marines. Marines are heard, skulk flashes out just as they are about to enter. -Skulk is now in the middle of the marines with the ability to take 18 lmg hits.
Skulk is cloaked in some position, be it ceiling, wall, other out of the way area. Marines walk in. Skulk waits a bit for the marines to think the room is clear and then attacks. Since the marines are not directly looking, they hear the sounds, and it takes about the same amount of time to react as it takes for the skulk to close the distance. -Skulk is now in the middle of the marines with the ability to take 8 lmg hits.
How the hell could sensory work better there? And if the commander scanned, you would be visible and just like a normal skulk.
Also, NO, normal skulks ARE NOT as good as normal marines. Try telling any decent clan that, and they will laugh at you just as hard as I am.
Did you not read what I said? I think that carapace and Cloaking both have their uses, but sneaking up on the marines vs Jumping in their midst... Who do you think will last longer?
Sure you get 19 hits, but if there's 3 people shooting you that's only 6 1/3 shots a piece with an LMG.
And unless you're in a clan, you bringing up clans doesn't mean ****.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cregore+Feb 16 2003, 11:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cregore @ Feb 16 2003, 11:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Did you not read what I said? I think that carapace and Cloaking both have their uses, but sneaking up on the marines vs Jumping in their midst... Who do you think will last longer?
Sure you get 19 hits, but if there's 3 people shooting you that's only 6 1/3 shots a piece with an LMG.
And unless you're in a clan, you bringing up clans doesn't mean ****. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am talking about moving once you are uncloaked. IN BOTH CASES THE MARINES KNOW YOU ARE THERE! THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THAT YOU HAVE OVER DOUBLE THE EFFECTIVE HITPOINTS WITH CARAPACE
Before you attack with cloaking you have to jump into their midst. Unless they have their sound turned off, they have JUST AS MUCH WARNING as a skulk shooting out from a doorway.
And about your clan remark. I am unable to play on weekdays, which is when all the good leagues have their games. If I was able to play, I would be in [TAKEN], one of the top NS clans. As it is, I ring once and a while and am very good friends with some other clan players too.
It really depends on the situation, I prefer Celerity or Cloaking over Carapace and have had success with it.
Edit: NS for CAL looks like they'll be playing on Saturdays <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And as for Clans: I used to be in one of the best clans in North America for RtCW.
^^ The above statement is as meaningless as your reference to that NS clan.
Hmm.. Monkey, maybe you are not FORCING people to use your strategie, but being more polite would help less harsh replies.
For me, I'm ok with ANY chambers, cuz I suck as a skulk <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
And you people all talk like : DC = carapace only.. where is REGEN? for quick attacks. WHere is Redemption? For when you're a fade and not many RT.
WHere is SILENCE with Movement? ( IMO, silence is better then carapace, cuz they CANNOT hear you like you said monkey, and silence is better then cloack. My opinion, not FACTS).
I don't care that Monkey has a differing opinion, everyone's opinion is valid; I do care that he seems to try to make it personal by insulting people, or badgering them into taking his opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cregore+Feb 16 2003, 11:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cregore @ Feb 16 2003, 11:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It really depends on the situation, I prefer Celerity or Cloaking over Carapace and have had success with it.
Edit: NS for CAL looks like they'll be playing on Saturdays <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And as for Clans: I used to be in one of the best clans in North America for RtCW.
^^ The above statement is as meaningless as your reference to that NS clan. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a matter of fact, [TAKEN] only recently joined CAL, and I have talked a bit with Howler about joining once I get my computer is fixed.
And why is my statement about a clan meaningless? Mine has some relevance to NS, while yours does not. I have played/watched high caliber games, and know what I am talking about for NS.
And to Tanathos Yes, I could be a little less harsh, but I really could care less. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Oh, and you try to keep having to explain to newbies, inexperienced people, or the sadly misinformed that DCs first are the best way to go for months. Regen and redemption sadly are not up to par. Yes, silence is the best upgrade for movement, but if the marines have MT or even just have a rear-guard, your upgrade just turned to crap. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I personally look forward to 1.1 when all chambers will be equally viable. Also, if it somehow adds any weight, even <b><i><u>Flayra</u></i></b>, the main force behind NS admitted that sens and movement first needed a boost, and stated that they would be more balanced in 1.1.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cregore+Feb 16 2003, 11:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cregore @ Feb 16 2003, 11:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If they're one of the top clans for NS how come they're just entering CAL now? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because of CAL and it's loose rules. None of the effective rules have really been enforced as of a while ago, such as: IRC channel Clan server Clan website Sufficient players
CAL was infested with half-**** clans who just put their name down and would never show up for a match.
That was the reason [TAKEN] did not join... Too much hassle.
Very good reason, but anyways... we've strayed off topic.
If you wish to continue this conversation you can PM me, or you can view my profile and get some contact information <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Movement doesn't suck as a first chamber, for these reasons...
<b>Adrenaline</b>:
Gorges have near unlimited heal spray, get a few gorges together, and gorge rush the marine base. While Lerks can fire near unlimited spikes, which in the early game, takes out armor unupgraded marines VERY quickly. Gorges can heal each other and everyone else, so the team take less damage.
<b>Silence</b>:
One of my faves, as a skulk, it means most of your surprise attacks are more likely to succeed. Most good players are dependant on their headphones to find their target, with silence, you take away one of their senses.
<b>Celerity</b>:
While not as useful as the other two upgrades, it allows gorges to cover ground faster and allows skulks to get past turrets before they lock on to you. Particularly great for taking out bunny hopping marines who can sometimes match the speed of a non-celerity skulk while jumping backwards.
<b>Combine all three</b>
Now imagine using a combination of all three upgrades at level 3. It will allow you to have a couple of gorges with unlimited heal spray, a few lerks with adrenaline, a couple of skulks to run circles around marines. Now if this team marched into the Marine base, you could in theory win the game no problem. The gorges could set up a Movement chamber outside the base for emergency escape should the hive get attacked, and if this is really well organized, you'd be laughing.
Adrenaline-gorge rushing does not work all that well. If one marine targets one gorge instead of the nearby for or five, he can take it down pretty easily healing or no. Gorge rushing is a joke tactic that can be done against inept opponents, nothing more.
Silence is only good for sneaking up to marines. That means, to gain any advantage, you have to run at the marines from behind. When they are on their way somewhere, one rear-guard cancels your silence, as the group has 360-degree visibility. Then if the marines research MT, silence turns worthless.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
A few gorges? At the beginning of the game? I don't think so...
Lerks without ANY defense upgrades? (Doesn't have to be cara, I like regen for Lerks as well) Takes what? 12 or 13 shots from an lmg to kill the lerk? Plus, how are you going ot get lerks in the beginning anyway with your 12 res per alien?
Silenced skulks...are good. I wished they would negate motion tracking tho. But still good because not everyone gets MT.
No one does early base rushing anymore. Mines, Mines, Mines!
Movement chamber, celerity, gives a 30% increase to the already semi-fast skulk. Silence give complete silence. Adrenaline gives infinite energy.
Silence, motion tracking usually isn't researched that early in the game (usually 3 minutes, or when the next hive is building), and all the best marines use the alien footsteps to determine EXACTLY where enemies will be, silence destroys that advantage. Not to mention lerks with silence are near impossible to track without doing several 360s.
Gorges (with celerity) can run from enemies better (as good as redemption), lerks have infinite flight/spikes (very effectivity in the hands of a good player, seeing as he can finally fly and spike at the same time), skulks run quite fast, faster then marines can track it (even good marines).
Certainly, with carapace you take more hits (much more) then non-carapace, and you can ram into turret factories eventually destroying them, also, if you're hive rushed, the hive will heal while being pummeled. But, movement can help just as well (considering the gorge put movement chambers...say in the hive location it was saving at).
Rushing and rushing works surprisingly good with carapace, however, bunny-hopping with celerity works just as good (if not better), depending on how well YOU dodge and the marines aim, but being forced to adapt to playing differently doesn't work good for people (even me).
If you've played defense-movement-sensory all your NS gaming career, and suddenly someone builds movement first, you and your whole team (assuming they've also played the same pattern) will most likely fail, because they don't know how to use celerity effectively, haven't learned hit-and-run with silence, or how to use the lerk as a combat air flyer effectively. And, seeing how NS is a team game, one cannot play by himself and get good at a particular chamber-order.
People first played with all the chambers and defense first had the low learning curve, so, everyone chooses it and gets better at it, neglecting the other chambers.
Only one game did I play movement first, did we win? Nope, because of too many skulks rushing directly at marines hoping for a kill or not realizing that if marines are rushing hives, then its time to choose celerity to get their and defend faster, not to choose the same silence upgrade over and over strictly because you used to choose carapace over and over.
Me myself rarely died, because I could circle strafe marines and dodge turret fire very easily(with celerity), not to mention I caught up to them very quickly chomping them to bits and jumping away. But seeing as I rarely play with movement first, I didn't exactly know what I was doing, nor did my team but, it was apparent that marines were caught flat-footed (not expecting skulks to appear from no where biting their backs with silence, or super fast skulks moving too quick to hit). Which is why we had another advantage.
Sensory however, really has nothing of importance, cloaking is okay, but you'll suffer a painful mid-game.
But with movement, you can easily build defense chambers next. Going defense first now will be efficient enough because people underestimate the potency of chambers and play with them wrong (apparent when people try to use silence to take out turrets, then say its worthless because it doesn't help).
This is just what I've noticed about movement first and why people hate it (underestimate it).
Hey, maybe just maybe, if we mention all the "1337 clans" we're all in, people will start to listen to us more!!! ...nope
Monkey, believe whatever you want and by all means, obviously it has been working for you so keep using it again. Congrats to you and your "taken" friends.
But please, PLEASE instead of calling people "ignorant" and the like, and if you're so sick of trying to convince "newbies" that you are always right and there's really only one true way to play the game then by all means stop. You create your own argument. Instead of plain laying out the facts you see and saying nicely, "that's why i like to use defense first, your results may be different." You badger us all with offensive comments and personal slams. Let us learn on our own that everything but carapace is "horrible". The rest of us here can trade the DIFFERENT(!) way of doing things and actually get some varied information here. I'm beginning to think you get some sick, creepy pleasure out of the argument(s) that you create...
P.S. - For the love of god please, ns developers, make 1.1 asap to silence these arguments...
<!--QuoteBegin--Torgo27+Feb 18 2003, 03:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Torgo27 @ Feb 18 2003, 03:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hey, maybe just maybe, if we mention all the "1337 clans" we're all in, people will start to listen to us more!!! ...nope <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That was the exact point I was making when I brought up GAT(My old RtCW Clan).
<!--QuoteBegin--Torgo27+Feb 18 2003, 06:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Torgo27 @ Feb 18 2003, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> P.S. - For the love of god please, ns developers, make 1.1 asap to silence these arguments... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with that quote.
However, my arguments are only against those that think of sensory and movement as viable first chambers, which they are not. Both are extremely easy to counter and do not even help much when you have them versus good players. If you mean I should start contributing strategies and stuff, I will not because they have already been said, and unlike some other people, I dislike posting what has been posted many times over. (At least when not replying to someone who says sens or movement are good, since they are not and posting the same evidence to the contrary over and over is necessary.)
I say I like defense first, but I also support why I say it.
In short, movement and sensory are easily countered.
A cloaked skulk gets a few tenths of a second's jump on marines over a carapace skulk.
Celerity sucks and moving 30% faster wont do jack ****.
Silence WOULD be good if marines did not have a rearguard. Otherwise... No.
In case you never read my other posts besides the purposeful flamebaiting, there you go.
Comments
No, celerity is NEVER better than carapace.
It is <b><i><u><span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>NOT</span></u></i></b> a play style.
You <b><i><u><span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>CANNOT</span></u></i></b> dodge enough bullets which would otherwise hit with your pretty celerity.
Just like sensory, movement just does not cut it for a first chamber.
Sure you can win with it, but only against a stupid/bad enemy team. Ok, you might classify an average player as not stupid, but the average player is stupid IMO. Sure it CAN work against average and worse players, but it will NEVER work in a pug or clan match setting, or even a server with a bunch of good regulars.
Ok then, in your eyes it works against stupid/bad teams. So let us use it agaisnt our "stupid/bad" teams and save us the pain from hearing you scream defense. It (meaning varied chamber order) obviously works and is enjoyable for a lot of us so stop making your "concrete facts" trying to ruin our game. Not everyone feels the same way so stop forcing your ideals on us.
By the way, I am NOT a sensory/movement crusader that feels that defense is horribly inadequate. Defense works quite well, and since that's what almost all servers do nowadays, I'm all but forced to use it all the time. I repeat- I use defense, I like defense, I DON'T like brash generalizations and direct put downs on things that you may see as less viable, but obviously others feel different and you refuse to recognize it, inferring they are less of a player than you. So cut it out.
Amen
(waiting for the loaded response pointing out my fatal errors and how I must play with "n00bs" and once again forcing DEFENSE ONLY down my throat)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...but we've gone through many o' thread with that same issue and it has gotten us no where except to clarify the fact that monkey is hell bent on forcing everybody to use defense first over and over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, anyone with any common sense realizes that sens and movement are not as viable first chambers. If you dont like reality, then by all means, stay off in your dream world.
I say what I say to enlighten those who want to win, and also to ignorant people who believe that mov or sens are the best choices for first chamber.
Hell Celerity works better for ambushing than Carapace does.
Hell Celerity works better for ambushing than Carapace does. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Negative.
A cloaked skulk is less effective than a carapace skulk waiting to the side of a doorway for the marines to walk though. With sensory you have half the hitpoints, and you gain just a portion of a second of reaction time.
Celerity makes you a tiny bit faster, which is NOWHERE near as good as living as long.
D->M->S (or even just skip the s and still be able to place DCs or MCs if the marines retake a hive)...
If the marines are as good as the ones you claim to be playing with... Cloak would be far better because they could look right at you and miss you, if you had Carapace they'd chew you up.
If the marines are as good as the ones you claim to be playing with... Cloak would be far better because they could look right at you and miss you, if you had Carapace they'd chew you up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. You have it all wrong.
-See with sensory, you HAVE to hide in an out of the way spot, and not in the middle of the passage in order to not be seen. Skulk waits for marines to move a bit and think the room is clear. Skulk rushes the tiny distance to the marines, marines hear, turn, and start shooting. 9 hits to kill skulk right in the middle of the marines.
-Carapace skulk hides by doorway, listens for marines about to come around the corner, skulk jumps out right when they are about to get through. 19 hits to kill skulk right in the middle of the marines.
Now, you tell me what is better. 19 hits to die or 9. Yeah, carapace > cloaking.
Then if the comm scans (moron if he did not), and cloaked skulks are no longer cloaked... GG aliens.
I laugh at people who don't know when to pick a fight...the only time where I can see carapice being of use is if you're going on a base-hitting run without large reinforcements. With regen 3, if you can get behind structures for just a few seconds, it can bring your health back to a point where you can escape without dying from one shot.
Not to mention the fact that if you die at exactly the right time with regen, you <b>can</b> rise from the dead. It's happened to me twice, the screen went sideways when I died and then went normal again. I was confused, then realized I had regenerated the instant I "died" and was spared. I killed the marine.
In my opinion, a skulk should get any traits available that allow long term survivability when behind lines, as well as escaping quickly. Which is why I take regen, and when two hives goup, adrenaline. I can parasite until I'm near death, then leap away, pulling off 4 leaps in rapid succession, practically flying away. Regenerate and repeat. When every single marine is parasited and you can set up ambushes well in advance, that little extra armor doesn't mean that muchs, at least not to me. But I don't play rambo skulk; the marines expect it more, and killing two or more before they know what the hell is going on really lowers morale and frustrates the commander.
-See with sensory, you HAVE to hide in an out of the way spot, and not in the middle of the passage in order to not be seen. Skulk waits for marines to move a bit and think the room is clear. Skulk rushes the tiny distance to the marines, marines hear, turn, and start shooting. 9 hits to kill skulk right in the middle of the marines.
-Carapace skulk hides by doorway, listens for marines about to come around the corner, skulk jumps out right when they are about to get through. 19 hits to kill skulk right in the middle of the marines.
Now, you tell me what is better. 19 hits to die or 9. Yeah, carapace > cloaking.
Then if the comm scans (moron if he did not), and cloaked skulks are no longer cloaked... GG aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't I say above a doorway?
And with Carapace if you jump in the middle of marines you're gonna be paste in a matter of milliseconds if the marines are any good, with luck you might get one...
Now with Cloak, depending on what the marines are doing you will definately get one, maybe 2(If there's 3-4 there), what I mean is... if they're busy shooting at O towers or something they're not going to be able to hear you; Although the same applies to Carapace, but with Cloak you can hide almost in broad daylight(IE: off to the side of the room and they'll run right by).
The only reason Cloaking is viewed as useless right now is because by the time you get it they marines have Motion Tracking(that's if you follow the standard D>M>S Strat)
Off the start Movement would own, hell Normal skulks without upgrades marines own Unupgraded marines if you surprise them.
It all depends on your playing style, yes it's risky to not do a D Chamber right off the bat... but who cares? I don't play Aliens a lot becuase you do win 70% of the time as alien as long as you have a good Gorge(or good skulks to protect a mediocre gorge)
I probably play marines 60% of the time and aliens 40% and I spend about 1/2 the game as a Fade when I'm alien and the other 1/2 as Skulk.
Then explain this...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, celerity is NEVER better than carapace.
It is NOT a play style.
You CANNOT dodge enough bullets which would otherwise hit with your pretty celerity.
Just like sensory, movement just does not cut it for a first chamber.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but it is factual that a certain order is best.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is nothing "factual" about people's playing styles. Everyone is different, which explains why you like defense first, because you aren't so good with the other two chambers to start off with. Other people however, are able to take a celeritized or cloaked skulk and just rip the marines a new one. Now, just because you can't kill marines without carapace, does not mean that there are skulks who can take down marines with celerity/cloaking.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, anyone with any common sense realizes that sens and movement are not as viable first chambers. If you dont like reality, then by all means, stay off in your dream world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mmmmmmmm, flamebaiting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I say what I say to enlighten those who want to win<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can win with movement or sensory first just fine, so I don't need your "help."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and also to ignorant people who believe that mov or sens are the best choices for first chamber.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, more flambaiting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->See with sensory, you HAVE to hide in an out of the way spot, and not in the middle of the passage in order to not be seen.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or, sit in the middle of the room/hallway, marine bumbs into you, attack twice, dead marine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then if the comm scans (moron if he did not), and cloaked skulks are no longer cloaked... GG aliens.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The comm will run out of money eventually, skulks should still be running aboot killing resource nozzles. Also, observatories have 1000 health. For comparison, spawns have 2000 health. Rush the observatory kill it, make the commander waste 25 res on another observatory... An even bigger kick in the sack is when you kill the observatory with motion tracking researching.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, you tell me what is better. 19 hits to die or 9. Yeah, carapace > cloaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only for life expectancy during prolonged firefights...Thats where its advantages end. Luckily, cloaking is designed to make them as short as possible.
Sensory while immence fun (we won a game the other day with it against a marine team that wasn't THAT bad.) Just plain isn't as good as carapice because it don't upgrade you in many situations you need it.
Movement is better (as it upgrades you for all the situations your likley to face). But in my oppinion defence is better than movement.
With sensory you are markedly reduced in your ability to assult anything. You HAVE to ambush.
I killed 5 or 6 skulks solo in the corridor outside power subjunction 3 by trapping the aliens gorge in the res node area and then waiting there.
The gorge went nuts the skulks poored in and I blew them away in the long corridor.
They were coming in 3 or so at a time.
Now as soon as the marines start spreading around the map you're not going to have ANY chance of containment cos they can get up phase gates.
So, the question is this:
When the marines have spred out and captured positions with phase gates. How do you remove these phase gate instellations with sensory?
The answer is of course that while its possible sensory helps you not one iota so you may aswell save the 30 res and get the 2nd hive faster.
BlueGhost
None of those quotes is me directly saying that people HAVE to use D-M-S. Sure they are truthfully saying that it is better, but it is still not saying that they HAVE to. Oh, and I dont mind if I invite flames. I love idiots replying to these threads with no ideas what they are talking about, it just makes me laugh while I write my replies. Stupid people are funny.
Then I just have to laugh at Cregore's logic... Rofl.
Somehow being in the exact same situation with carapace is worse than being in the situation with cloaking... HAHAHA
In case you can't figure it out, situation:
Skulk near doorway, listens for marines. Marines are heard, skulk flashes out just as they are about to enter.
-Skulk is now in the middle of the marines with the ability to take 18 lmg hits.
Skulk is cloaked in some position, be it ceiling, wall, other out of the way area.
Marines walk in. Skulk waits a bit for the marines to think the room is clear and then attacks. Since the marines are not directly looking, they hear the sounds, and it takes about the same amount of time to react as it takes for the skulk to close the distance.
-Skulk is now in the middle of the marines with the ability to take 8 lmg hits.
How the hell could sensory work better there?
And if the commander scanned, you would be visible and just like a normal skulk.
Also, NO, normal skulks ARE NOT as good as normal marines. Try telling any decent clan that, and they will laugh at you just as hard as I am.
I think that carapace and Cloaking both have their uses, but sneaking up on the marines vs Jumping in their midst... Who do you think will last longer?
Sure you get 19 hits, but if there's 3 people shooting you that's only 6 1/3 shots a piece with an LMG.
And unless you're in a clan, you bringing up clans doesn't mean ****.
I think that carapace and Cloaking both have their uses, but sneaking up on the marines vs Jumping in their midst... Who do you think will last longer?
Sure you get 19 hits, but if there's 3 people shooting you that's only 6 1/3 shots a piece with an LMG.
And unless you're in a clan, you bringing up clans doesn't mean ****. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am talking about moving once you are uncloaked.
IN BOTH CASES THE MARINES KNOW YOU ARE THERE!
THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THAT YOU HAVE OVER DOUBLE THE EFFECTIVE HITPOINTS WITH CARAPACE
Before you attack with cloaking you have to jump into their midst. Unless they have their sound turned off, they have JUST AS MUCH WARNING as a skulk shooting out from a doorway.
And about your clan remark. I am unable to play on weekdays, which is when all the good leagues have their games. If I was able to play, I would be in [TAKEN], one of the top NS clans. As it is, I ring once and a while and am very good friends with some other clan players too.
Edit:
NS for CAL looks like they'll be playing on Saturdays <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And as for Clans:
I used to be in one of the best clans in North America for RtCW.
^^
The above statement is as meaningless as your reference to that NS clan.
Hmm.. Monkey, maybe you are not FORCING people to use your strategie, but being more polite would help less harsh replies.
For me, I'm ok with ANY chambers, cuz I suck as a skulk <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
And you people all talk like : DC = carapace only.. where is REGEN? for quick attacks. WHere is Redemption? For when you're a fade and not many RT.
WHere is SILENCE with Movement? ( IMO, silence is better then carapace, cuz they CANNOT hear you like you said monkey, and silence is better then cloack. My opinion, not FACTS).
I do care that he seems to try to make it personal by insulting people, or badgering them into taking his opinion.
Edit:
NS for CAL looks like they'll be playing on Saturdays <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And as for Clans:
I used to be in one of the best clans in North America for RtCW.
^^
The above statement is as meaningless as your reference to that NS clan. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a matter of fact, [TAKEN] only recently joined CAL, and I have talked a bit with Howler about joining once I get my computer is fixed.
And why is my statement about a clan meaningless? Mine has some relevance to NS, while yours does not. I have played/watched high caliber games, and know what I am talking about for NS.
And to Tanathos
Yes, I could be a little less harsh, but I really could care less. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh, and you try to keep having to explain to newbies, inexperienced people, or the sadly misinformed that DCs first are the best way to go for months.
Regen and redemption sadly are not up to par.
Yes, silence is the best upgrade for movement, but if the marines have MT or even just have a rear-guard, your upgrade just turned to crap. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I personally look forward to 1.1 when all chambers will be equally viable.
Also, if it somehow adds any weight, even <b><i><u>Flayra</u></i></b>, the main force behind NS admitted that sens and movement first needed a boost, and stated that they would be more balanced in 1.1.
Although I'm just getting into the HL/NS community, in the RtCW community CAL was/is the place to be for Leagues.
Because of CAL and it's loose rules.
None of the effective rules have really been enforced as of a while ago, such as:
IRC channel
Clan server
Clan website
Sufficient players
CAL was infested with half-**** clans who just put their name down and would never show up for a match.
That was the reason [TAKEN] did not join... Too much hassle.
If you wish to continue this conversation you can PM me, or you can view my profile and get some contact information <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>Adrenaline</b>:
Gorges have near unlimited heal spray, get a few gorges together, and gorge rush the marine base. While Lerks can fire near unlimited spikes, which in the early game, takes out armor unupgraded marines VERY quickly. Gorges can heal each other and everyone else, so the team take less damage.
<b>Silence</b>:
One of my faves, as a skulk, it means most of your surprise attacks are more likely to succeed. Most good players are dependant on their headphones to find their target, with silence, you take away one of their senses.
<b>Celerity</b>:
While not as useful as the other two upgrades, it allows gorges to cover ground faster and allows skulks to get past turrets before they lock on to you. Particularly great for taking out bunny hopping marines who can sometimes match the speed of a non-celerity skulk while jumping backwards.
<b>Combine all three</b>
Now imagine using a combination of all three upgrades at level 3. It will allow you to have a couple of gorges with unlimited heal spray, a few lerks with adrenaline, a couple of skulks to run circles around marines. Now if this team marched into the Marine base, you could in theory win the game no problem. The gorges could set up a Movement chamber outside the base for emergency escape should the hive get attacked, and if this is really well organized, you'd be laughing.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Adrenaline-gorge rushing does not work all that well. If one marine targets one gorge instead of the nearby for or five, he can take it down pretty easily healing or no. Gorge rushing is a joke tactic that can be done against inept opponents, nothing more.
Silence is only good for sneaking up to marines. That means, to gain any advantage, you have to run at the marines from behind. When they are on their way somewhere, one rear-guard cancels your silence, as the group has 360-degree visibility. Then if the marines research MT, silence turns worthless.
Celerity just sucks.
Lerks without ANY defense upgrades? (Doesn't have to be cara, I like regen for Lerks as well) Takes what? 12 or 13 shots from an lmg to kill the lerk? Plus, how are you going ot get lerks in the beginning anyway with your 12 res per alien?
Silenced skulks...are good. I wished they would negate motion tracking tho. But still good because not everyone gets MT.
No one does early base rushing anymore. Mines, Mines, Mines!
Silence give complete silence.
Adrenaline gives infinite energy.
Silence, motion tracking usually isn't researched that early in the game (usually 3 minutes, or when the next hive is building), and all the best marines use the alien footsteps to determine EXACTLY where enemies will be, silence destroys that advantage. Not to mention lerks with silence are near impossible to track without doing several 360s.
Gorges (with celerity) can run from enemies better (as good as redemption), lerks have infinite flight/spikes (very effectivity in the hands of a good player, seeing as he can finally fly and spike at the same time), skulks run quite fast, faster then marines can track it (even good marines).
Certainly, with carapace you take more hits (much more) then non-carapace, and you can ram into turret factories eventually destroying them, also, if you're hive rushed, the hive will heal while being pummeled. But, movement can help just as well (considering the gorge put movement chambers...say in the hive location it was saving at).
Rushing and rushing works surprisingly good with carapace, however, bunny-hopping with celerity works just as good (if not better), depending on how well YOU dodge and the marines aim, but being forced to adapt to playing differently doesn't work good for people (even me).
If you've played defense-movement-sensory all your NS gaming career, and suddenly someone builds movement first, you and your whole team (assuming they've also played the same pattern) will most likely fail, because they don't know how to use celerity effectively, haven't learned hit-and-run with silence, or how to use the lerk as a combat air flyer effectively. And, seeing how NS is a team game, one cannot play by himself and get good at a particular chamber-order.
People first played with all the chambers and defense first had the low learning curve, so, everyone chooses it and gets better at it, neglecting the other chambers.
Only one game did I play movement first, did we win? Nope, because of too many skulks rushing directly at marines hoping for a kill or not realizing that if marines are rushing hives, then its time to choose celerity to get their and defend faster, not to choose the same silence upgrade over and over strictly because you used to choose carapace over and over.
Me myself rarely died, because I could circle strafe marines and dodge turret fire very easily(with celerity), not to mention I caught up to them very quickly chomping them to bits and jumping away. But seeing as I rarely play with movement first, I didn't exactly know what I was doing, nor did my team but, it was apparent that marines were caught flat-footed (not expecting skulks to appear from no where biting their backs with silence, or super fast skulks moving too quick to hit). Which is why we had another advantage.
Sensory however, really has nothing of importance, cloaking is okay, but you'll suffer a painful mid-game.
But with movement, you can easily build defense chambers next. Going defense first now will be efficient enough because people underestimate the potency of chambers and play with them wrong (apparent when people try to use silence to take out turrets, then say its worthless because it doesn't help).
This is just what I've noticed about movement first and why people hate it (underestimate it).
...nope
Monkey, believe whatever you want and by all means, obviously it has been working for you so keep using it again. Congrats to you and your "taken" friends.
But please, PLEASE instead of calling people "ignorant" and the like, and if you're so sick of trying to convince "newbies" that you are always right and there's really only one true way to play the game then by all means stop. You create your own argument. Instead of plain laying out the facts you see and saying nicely, "that's why i like to use defense first, your results may be different." You badger us all with offensive comments and personal slams. Let us learn on our own that everything but carapace is "horrible". The rest of us here can trade the DIFFERENT(!) way of doing things and actually get some varied information here. I'm beginning to think you get some sick, creepy pleasure out of the argument(s) that you create...
P.S. - For the love of god please, ns developers, make 1.1 asap to silence these arguments...
...nope <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was the exact point I was making when I brought up GAT(My old RtCW Clan).
I agree with that quote.
However, my arguments are only against those that think of sensory and movement as viable first chambers, which they are not.
Both are extremely easy to counter and do not even help much when you have them versus good players.
If you mean I should start contributing strategies and stuff, I will not because they have already been said, and unlike some other people, I dislike posting what has been posted many times over. (At least when not replying to someone who says sens or movement are good, since they are not and posting the same evidence to the contrary over and over is necessary.)
I say I like defense first, but I also support why I say it.
In short, movement and sensory are easily countered.
A cloaked skulk gets a few tenths of a second's jump on marines over a carapace skulk.
Celerity sucks and moving 30% faster wont do jack ****.
Silence WOULD be good if marines did not have a rearguard. Otherwise... No.
In case you never read my other posts besides the purposeful flamebaiting, there you go.