Lets all just sit down, eat a cookie, and drink a nice warm cup of SUYF. Cool off you guys.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->second, the universe IS infinite, but that doesn't mean that there is *stuff* in all the infinity. Basically there is no end to the nothingness of space.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there is infinite nothingness, how do we know that it's there at all, and the boundary hasn't stopped, thus making the universe finite?
I'm afraid that at present moment, I'm not as well equipped to deal with this argument as the rest of you, but I will throw this out there.
If you believe that the universe is infinite in time, and that it always has been, how much less plausable is it that God always has been?
If you believe that the univers is finite, and has had a definate beginning, then how did it begin, how was it created? Enter the God theory.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
this is a problem just like the chicken and the egg. Both are equally elusive to disprove. The problem is that mankind has a long history of making up things like God figures to explain things we don't understand. That is where my attention is focused in the debate.
<!--QuoteBegin--z.x. bogglestiensky+Feb 22 2003, 08:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (z.x. bogglestiensky @ Feb 22 2003, 08:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Quidam+Feb 22 2003, 11:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quidam @ Feb 22 2003, 11:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->all you did was prove my point boggle
/edit after some thought, i decided to make a response anyway.
your young man example is irrelevant; it does not prove anything, so i will view it as a red herring.
"consider the options"? so clearly, i should act through my self-preservation instinct, and life my life as i wish, do what i want, then let jesus die for me so i can go to heaven safe and sound.
that is pure idiocy. that is exactly what causes corruption in churches, and look just how corrupt it is!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) What was your point?
2)My young man example (btw, did you actually read it?) was actually based on an idea I got from a book, "A Sneaking Suspicion" by John Dickson: "...if you realise you're about to fail maths at school, you would be foolish not to take it more seriously and spend more time at your desk in preparation" (pg 92)
3) But do you really feel that that is the best way to repay someone who died for you? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> my point was that your young man example was the perfect analagy for MY rapeist/murderer example. watch: "...if you realise you're about to fail maths at school, you would be foolish not to take it more seriously and spend more time at your desk in preparation"
into: if you realise that the bible says that rapeing and murdering women will send you straight to hell, then you would be foolish to not "give it up" in the final moments and plegde undying, eternal devotion to god.
[hypothetically]does the outlaw in my example care that jesus died for him? no, he just wants the good life.
<!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Feb 22 2003, 09:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 22 2003, 09:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is that mankind has a long history of making up things like God figures to explain things we don't understand. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> unfortunatly, true
most likely explanation for the how religeon was created-people didn't want to think about "how they got there"
easy answer? an all-knowing, all-seeing, omnipotent "God" did the job and we must live our life in devotion to him.
<!--QuoteBegin--SmokeNova+Feb 21 2003, 08:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmokeNova @ Feb 21 2003, 08:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So far as i've seen (not to tread on Chrisianity or anything Legionnaired) Buddhism is the only religion that doesn't actively go out and try to convert. When was the last time you heard of a Buddhist congregation going out and singing Christmas Carols?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually I have seen Buddhists out there(in the world) trying to convert ppl. Ever hear of the Nichern Shoshu(hope I spelled that correctly)? The are very similar to hardcore evangelican Xtians. Standing out on street corners handing out pamphlets and such. But your main point of 'not all religions are out to convert ppl' is correct. In fact some religions believe that proselytization is bad and is a mindset of the weak-minded.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Feb 22 2003, 04:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Feb 22 2003, 04:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> At least we were educated enough to know that witches were made of wood. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, even in those backward times. Those people somehow managed to clearly see that witches were made of wood. Oh my, if they hadn't written it down we might not know such things today!
Although yes, we do create things to explain what we dont know. And you know what, that's true, but the same goes along with scientific theory, believe it or not, alot of scientist out there spit a lot of lies that they call fact. The funniest thing is that its almost always contrary to what they say.
As to religion and God. If indeed he does exist, there was definite beginning of man and the relationship of God was very real. But this leads me to believe that from what history has taught us there is a God, since events have been written down there has ALWAYS been religion. That leads to the point that at one time there was a real relationship.
From what i believe to be true were talking about the Adam and God. And from the creation of man, there has always been this belief that there is a creator. And as time goes on, people stray away from that because of the intervention of Satan, people began to rather do whatever they want rather than even recognize God. They would rather rape, kill and steal because it's "So much easier and fulfilling" . Biblically it is noted many examples of the above. Which leads us to today, where we have posts of religion, and because of the gradual decay of morality where its cool to get drugged up, bang a chick and get a disease along with all the other consequences that leads to.
As to the contradictions of scientific theory we have the "Law of Biogenesis" that seems to be true and is true in every circumstance. Then we have these theories of evolution which has no solid fact that has built itself upon, only exceptions and possibilities. So to the, "which came first. the chicken or the egg?" Im going to mix some religion and some scientific fact. God created animals so i would say chicken. But also, for the egg to exist, because of the law of biogenesis there MUST be 2 chickens to produce that egg. So there ya go, chicken came first. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
One last thing, People always believe that God and science are mutually exclusive, which is absolutely wrong, because if there is INDEED a God, (which i believe) then then God created Science. Which sure would explain alot because of the complexities of the world.
One last thing, People always believe that God and science are mutually exclusive, which is absolutely wrong, because if there is INDEED a God, (which i believe) then then God created Science. Which sure would explain alot because of the complexities of the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As a paleontologist (well I'm studying to be one ) I'm glad to finaly find someone else you doesn't seem to think science and religion aren't mutualy exclusive. I'm really really sick of being told I'm going to Hell for advocating in evolution. That actualy has happened to me twice, once when this old guy sat next to my on the bus, lectured me about how I should read the bible more, and then noticed I was reading <u>Origin of Species</u>.......and the other time was back in high school when I gave a brief presentation about evolution of birds from dinosaurs (which may or may not be true....). I am as disgusted by the prevelent opinion with in the scientific community that religion is for people who are hideing from the world (yes, not all scientists would say that, but it has been said to me). To me science and religion are more or less the same thing, a way to explian the world around you., and there is no reason why you can't have both (show me one place in Darwin's body of work where it says "God doesn't exsist", I like to think of evolution as the hand of God) or why one is better than the other.
That was well said Sirius <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
One thing that boggles me is why millions of people experience NDE's, I mean, there has gota be some truth in them right? Sometimes looking around the beautiful world with my eyes gives me a sense of awe, because a randomness of design (God?) caused it to happen this way. The only way we shall ever figure this out is the very day we die.
I think a good reason why so many people doubt in God is because he seems so inactive at the moment. I mean if God wanted to, why he could strike down Suddam Huesein with a lightning bolt shaped in a finger or show his true power and glory.
It seems to me the wonder days back in Babylon, Egypt, Alexandria, Jesus, the bible (that is if you believe they existed) are gone. The world seems boring as it is, there is no sense of adventure or curiosity that was felt back in the "old" days. The surprising and sad thing is people are being more constrained in their own homes and limited to doing things and that is probably how the term "boring" was created (jk).
With the advent of new technologies and with Science at our side, who needs a God, right? Now that we have basic human rights and more knowledge. To me, the only way that a non believer will accept God is by experiencing his love and joy. I think God is "dormant," because we are more complicated than we were thousands of years ago, that we refuise to believe in him, because we have found ways to explain his non existence.
Life may be a test, If there is indeed a God of omnipotence, he is probably watching us very carefully and planning something great.
I believe in order for someone to come to a conclusion that God does exist, one has to *believe* and set aside all his thoughts. It requires a lot of faith and dedication. If I remember correctly, Jesus said that anyone who wants to be a disciple of him has to set aside everything, become like children (simpleminded), and carry a cross.
God will probably reward those with simple minds and open hearts by showing them his love, which they will experience through the Holy Spirit and so forth.
-Euoplocephalus, to you and everyone else, has anyone noticed how the creation of the world and universe run in correct chronological order with evolution, somewhat? correct me
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Euoplocephalus, to you and everyone else, has anyone noticed how the creation of the world and universe run in correct chronological order with evolution, somewhat? correct me <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what you mean there, are you saying all evolution has been building up to producing us? Evolution doesn't follow a straight line as such, it's extreamly random. If you look just at human evolution there are dozens of homonids who never survived for more than a few thousand years, offshoots that died off as their environment changed or were outclassed by another species. Evolution produces more dead ends than success stories, and even the most adaptive creatures still can fall prey to wild environmental changes. We are possibly the most adaptive of all the species that have ever come into being simply because we can alter our environment to suit our needs. We are still vunerable to environmental changes though; the El Nino effect here in Australia has devestated many farmers.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
edited February 2003
Last I checked, there are still people that believe they're being abducted by aliens every night. Should I give them credit too ?
[sarcasm]I mean, that's a lot of people. they couldn't all be making it up could they ? I mean, that's only something that happens nowadays. It couldn't have possibly happened when mankind was still putting faith in the healing power of smashing in a person's skull with a rock and twiddling with their brain because they had a headache.[/sarcasm]
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+Feb 22 2003, 09:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Feb 22 2003, 09:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Then we have these theories of evolution which has no solid fact that has built itself upon, only exceptions and possibilities. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats a bit of stretch. There isn't any scientific disagreement that evolution occurs. The disagreement is over the mechanisms and timeframe.
<!--QuoteBegin--Quidam+Feb 22 2003, 06:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quidam @ Feb 22 2003, 06:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> into: if you realise that the bible says that rapeing and murdering women will send you straight to hell, then you would be foolish to not "give it up" in the final moments and plegde undying, eternal devotion to god.
[hypothetically]does the outlaw in my example care that jesus died for him? no, he just wants the good life. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *Sigh*
I <i>REALLY</i> didn't want to do this, as I know that it's just going to open up a big can of worms, but I feel, given the circumstances, it addresses the argument. I guess I'll have to bust out Hebrews....
Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
This passage is open to many interpretations, one of which being that if you keep on sinning after you've become a Christian, then you go to hell.
This, of course, is wrong; If you have to not sin to still go to heaven, then you are maintaining your salvation by law, and therefore, you are not being saved by grace anymore. According to Christian teaching, the grace of God is the only reason you get into heaven, your asking for the love and the forgiveness of Christ. So, this cannot apply to already existing Christians.
To whom, then, does this harsh passage apply? "After recieving knowledge of the truth" says, basicly, to those that have heard the message, but have chosen not to act on it. Seems like your aquaintances.
If somebody honestly couldn't believe that there is a God, and then came to beleive otherwise later, then I can't believe that God would punish ignorance. However, if someone _plans_ on exploiting His generosity and forgiveness, then that's not loveing god. That's not even likeing God, its a selfish desire to live forever, at the expense of Christ. (Sure, he's perfect, but the punishment for every sin you've ever committed and ever will commit has <b>got</b> to be painful.) If you want more detail on this passage, PM me, I'll tell you more about it.
Ya know that reminds me of something. There are these ppl called the Yezidii that have a unique viewpoint on thier relationship with God. They believe that God is all forgiving, that is to say that God will forgive them for ANYTHING they have done in thier life just as long if they have last rites adminstered to them at the time of thier death. Sooooo...during this life they worship Satan as they see Satan as the lord of this world and worry about God only when they die.
nice try leg-but my point remains. for example, say that our friend jon the rapeist was brought up without religeon. only later in life does he discover "salvation". just ignorance there.
i mean, how was he to know that rape was evil and bad?
or of course, there is always those who can play dumb. (sure i know about the bible, never read it)
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses
this passage is an open invitation for corruption. person 1: she is a witch! person 2:she turned me into a newt! lady: i'm not a witch! person 3:yes you are! lady proceeds to be tied to a stake and burned alive. after all, 3 people stating she is a pagen heathen wench can't be wrong
[kudos to whoever catches the joke i put in there]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->nice try leg-but my point remains. for example, say that our friend jon the rapeist was brought up without religeon. only later in life does he discover "salvation". just ignorance there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he truely begs forgiveness, then that's grace. God's just more loving/forgiving then we are, and that's probably not a bad thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses
this passage is an open invitation for corruption. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This verse here is simply citing events from the OT, not condoning them. The laws in the OT, as I've said, were there to make Israel a country where sin was against the law, in order to keep it ready to deliver a savior, and present Him to the world. Under present conditions, a lot of OT law lends itself to corruption. Different times make for different uses of the word, sadly.
However, this verse simply is saying that if someone can die for rejecting the law, how much greater is the punishment for those who reject the Christ, who was untold times greater then the law. For more in this thought, Romans 5-8 is a great passage for it.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
This has been a long-standing question of mine that maybe Legionnaird can help me with. If a person has never heard of Christianity, and thus never had the opportunity to seek salvation, do they still go to hell for their sins (however minor)? It seems that Christian doctrine teaches that they would. This has always seemed like a bit of a problem to me because its not through any fault of their own that they are being punished.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
As far as I know, according to the bible, the word of God is supposedly already written on your heart, and therefore you would know abuot God even if you never actually heard of him. So, yes. If you never hear of God, you burn.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Feb 22 2003, 09:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Feb 22 2003, 09:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Euoplocephalus, to you and everyone else, has anyone noticed how the creation of the world and universe run in correct chronological order with evolution, somewhat? correct me <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what you mean there, are you saying all evolution has been building up to producing us? Evolution doesn't follow a straight line as such, it's extreamly random. If you look just at human evolution there are dozens of homonids who never survived for more than a few thousand years, offshoots that died off as their environment changed or were outclassed by another species. Evolution produces more dead ends than success stories, and even the most adaptive creatures still can fall prey to wild environmental changes. We are possibly the most adaptive of all the species that have ever come into being simply because we can alter our environment to suit our needs. We are still vunerable to environmental changes though; the El Nino effect here in Australia has devestated many farmers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Um depending on what you, mean by chronological order, maybe. There is a fairly accurate way to correlate the six "days" of creation in Genesis to what actualy happened, I forgot the exact method but if you define a day differently (a good argument for doing this was presented at the end of the movie "Inherent the Wind") but by a set change in amount you can twist everything in to six progressively shorter "days". We would be in the seventh "day" now when God is resting......kinda a scary thought, although it would explian a lot. Ryo does also have a good point about the "randomness" of evolution, sort of. Evolution isn't random, the mutations and onotological variations that lead to evolution of new species are. In the most simplified explination of evolution is that if a mutation gives a small advantage to survival, and therefore the chances of the induvidual passing on it's genes and that particular advantage to it's offspring it will continue to be passed on. It is tempting to say that evolution is random, because then we can't understand it, and don't have to try, but evolution, at least over a large period of time, is not random. Furthermore saying evolution has produced more dead-ends than sucesses is a poor statement, more than 90 percent of the species that have exsisted on Earth are now extinct, but that doesn't nessicarly mean that they aren't success stories, they might have evolved into some other species, or maybe they went extinct with out evolving into anything, but that doesn't mean they were dead-ends. Look at my personal favorite class Dinosauria, they are extinct now, well the non-avian ones are, but they lived for over 150 million years, is that not a success story? And anyways all genuses, including us, have a average lifespan of at most a few million years, there are exceptions, but either going extinct or evolving into something else fairly quickly(geologicaly speaking) is the rule. Just because something is alive at this instant in time does not mean that it is anymore succesful than something that lived in the past. But if he ment that evolution is complex and not easly understood/boiled down into a chronology then he is completely correct. Phylogeny and cladistics, the study of how things evolved, trying to make an evolutionary tree , is a very popular, and very hotly debated, subject within the field of paleontology now. The only part of Ryo's post I would completely discredit is his statement about enviromental changes. Yes El Nino did have an negative effect on farmers, but as a species we survived. Furthermore much of the negative fallout for farmers was economic, if they were allowed to do whatever was in their physical power to obtian food, I doubt anyone would have starved. If anything our species has been making it's self <i>less</i> enviromentaly robust, by creating a soceity where, for economic reasons farmers no longer produce food to feed themsevles, but concetrate on a few products which they seel so they can buy food and other things deemed important, which leaves them more exposed to problems. Look at South and Central American, there is a very large problem now because many subsitance farmers switched over to growing coffee, which then dropped in price leaving many farmers, who in the past had been able to grow all the food they needed, are now living in poverty, starving to death. Environmental changes do play a role in evolution, but not the "wild" ones as much as the slower, less localized ones, like major global temperature changes or oxygen ratio in the atmosphere. Hope that makes some sense.......
<!--QuoteBegin--z.x. bogglestiensky+Feb 23 2003, 04:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (z.x. bogglestiensky @ Feb 23 2003, 04:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem with only worrying about God when you die is that you never know when you are going to die.
Do you risk it, or do you 'play it safe' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well from the Yezidii viewpoint they are willing to gamble. That isnt my viewpoint, but then again the Xtian viewpoint isnt mine either.
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Feb 23 2003, 07:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Feb 23 2003, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This has been a long-standing question of mine that maybe Legionnaird can help me with. If a person has never heard of Christianity, and thus never had the opportunity to seek salvation, do they still go to hell for their sins (however minor)? It seems that Christian doctrine teaches that they would. This has always seemed like a bit of a problem to me because its not through any fault of their own that they are being punished. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> that was the next point i was going to bring up.
yes, you do burn if you believe in buddha or whatnot.
christianity is full of that kind of elitist crap throughout history-need i even mention "the white mans burden"
<!--QuoteBegin--Quidam+Feb 23 2003, 09:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quidam @ Feb 23 2003, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Feb 23 2003, 07:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Feb 23 2003, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This has been a long-standing question of mine that maybe Legionnaird can help me with. If a person has never heard of Christianity, and thus never had the opportunity to seek salvation, do they still go to hell for their sins (however minor)? It seems that Christian doctrine teaches that they would. This has always seemed like a bit of a problem to me because its not through any fault of their own that they are being punished. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that was the next point i was going to bring up.
yes, you do burn if you believe in buddha or whatnot.
christianity is full of that kind of elitist crap throughout history-need i even mention "the white mans burden" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> please explain yourself further.
what "Elitist crap", and just what is the "White mans burden"?
There's three widely accepted theories for what happens to people who don't hear about God.
1) If you've never heard the name Jesus, you go straight to hell.
2) If you've never been told of God, then you get a second chance, wether in the afterlife or via re-incarnation.
3) God has made himself apparent through nature, and thus, you SHOULD be able to figure out that he exists, and that he sent a messiah for you.
The third one seems the most probable to me, but there's really no definate answer. Through the Bible though, you see that God is a just God. Everything he does IS warrneted, like it or not, and him being our creator, he could really do what he wants anyway. Beyond that though, Above everything else, he is fair and loving.
Exodus 34:4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."
So, condemning someone forever for someone else's fault seems off of God's character, and there's very little biblical backing for re-incarnation. In fact, I preaches against it.
Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
So, the third one is really, in my mind, the only appropriate response. In fact, I was talking to one of my youth group leaders about this a while ago, and I guess there's a book called <u>Eternity in Their Hearts</u>, Which talks about a tribe in Africa, untouched by civilization, that somehow came up with the idea that there was a God, and that he sent his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. As Paul says...
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Hope that answers your question.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->christianity is full of that kind of elitist crap throughout history-need i even mention "the white mans burden" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've tried to be patient with you, but it's wearing thin. In any case, you can get to heaven without Jesus.....
You just have to be perfect. The whole idea behind Jesus is that his death was the payment for your sins. If you have no sins that need payment for, you're good, but everyone does, so you need Jesus.
Please, check your predisposed ignorance and hatred towards my faith at the door. Thanks.
Comments
Lets all just sit down, eat a cookie, and drink a nice warm cup of SUYF. Cool off you guys.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->second, the universe IS infinite, but that doesn't mean that there is *stuff* in all the infinity. Basically there is no end to the nothingness of space.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there is infinite nothingness, how do we know that it's there at all, and the boundary hasn't stopped, thus making the universe finite?
I'm afraid that at present moment, I'm not as well equipped to deal with this argument as the rest of you, but I will throw this out there.
If you believe that the universe is infinite in time, and that it always has been, how much less plausable is it that God always has been?
If you believe that the univers is finite, and has had a definate beginning, then how did it begin, how was it created? Enter the God theory.
/edit after some thought, i decided to make a response anyway.
your young man example is irrelevant; it does not prove anything, so i will view it as a red herring.
"consider the options"? so clearly, i should act through my self-preservation instinct, and life my life as i wish, do what i want, then let jesus die for me so i can go to heaven safe and sound.
that is pure idiocy. that is exactly what causes corruption in churches, and look just how corrupt it is!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) What was your point?
2)My young man example (btw, did you actually read it?) was actually based on an idea I got from a book, "A Sneaking Suspicion" by John Dickson: "...if you realise you're about to fail maths at school, you would be foolish not to take it more seriously and spend more time at your desk in preparation" (pg 92)
3) But do you really feel that that is the best way to repay someone who died for you? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
my point was that your young man example was the perfect analagy for MY rapeist/murderer example. watch: "...if you realise you're about to fail maths at school, you would be foolish not to take it more seriously and spend more time at your desk in preparation"
into: if you realise that the bible says that rapeing and murdering women will send you straight to hell, then you would be foolish to not "give it up" in the final moments and plegde undying, eternal devotion to god.
[hypothetically]does the outlaw in my example care that jesus died for him? no, he just wants the good life.
unfortunatly, true
most likely explanation for the how religeon was created-people didn't want to think about "how they got there"
easy answer? an all-knowing, all-seeing, omnipotent "God" did the job and we must live our life in devotion to him.
not like they had science back in year 1 C.E.
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Actually I have seen Buddhists out there(in the world) trying to convert ppl. Ever hear of the Nichern Shoshu(hope I spelled that correctly)? The are very similar to hardcore evangelican Xtians. Standing out on street corners handing out pamphlets and such. But your main point of 'not all religions are out to convert ppl' is correct. In fact some religions believe that proselytization is bad and is a mindset of the weak-minded.
Yes, even in those backward times. Those people somehow managed to clearly see that witches were made of wood. Oh my, if they hadn't written it down we might not know such things today!
As to religion and God. If indeed he does exist, there was definite beginning of man and the relationship of God was very real. But this leads me to believe that from what history has taught us there is a God, since events have been written down there has ALWAYS been religion. That leads to the point that at one time there was a real relationship.
From what i believe to be true were talking about the Adam and God. And from the creation of man, there has always been this belief that there is a creator. And as time goes on, people stray away from that because of the intervention of Satan, people began to rather do whatever they want rather than even recognize God. They would rather rape, kill and steal because it's "So much easier and fulfilling" . Biblically it is noted many examples of the above. Which leads us to today, where we have posts of religion, and because of the gradual decay of morality where its cool to get drugged up, bang a chick and get a disease along with all the other consequences that leads to.
As to the contradictions of scientific theory we have the "Law of Biogenesis" that seems to be true and is true in every circumstance. Then we have these theories of evolution which has no solid fact that has built itself upon, only exceptions and possibilities. So to the, "which came first. the chicken or the egg?" Im going to mix some religion and some scientific fact. God created animals so i would say chicken. But also, for the egg to exist, because of the law of biogenesis there MUST be 2 chickens to produce that egg. So there ya go, chicken came first. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
One last thing, People always believe that God and science are mutually exclusive, which is absolutely wrong, because if there is INDEED a God, (which i believe) then then God created Science. Which sure would explain alot because of the complexities of the world.
One last thing, People always believe that God and science are mutually exclusive, which is absolutely wrong, because if there is INDEED a God, (which i believe) then then God created Science. Which sure would explain alot because of the complexities of the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a paleontologist (well I'm studying to be one ) I'm glad to finaly find someone else you doesn't seem to think science and religion aren't mutualy exclusive. I'm really really sick of being told I'm going to Hell for advocating in evolution. That actualy has happened to me twice, once when this old guy sat next to my on the bus, lectured me about how I should read the bible more, and then noticed I was reading <u>Origin of Species</u>.......and the other time was back in high school when I gave a brief presentation about evolution of birds from dinosaurs (which may or may not be true....). I am as disgusted by the prevelent opinion with in the scientific community that religion is for people who are hideing from the world (yes, not all scientists would say that, but it has been said to me).
To me science and religion are more or less the same thing, a way to explian the world around you., and there is no reason why you can't have both (show me one place in Darwin's body of work where it says "God doesn't exsist", I like to think of evolution as the hand of God) or why one is better than the other.
One thing that boggles me is why millions of people experience NDE's, I mean, there has gota be some truth in them right? Sometimes looking around the beautiful world with my eyes gives me a sense of awe, because a randomness of design (God?) caused it to happen this way. The only way we shall ever figure this out is the very day we die.
I think a good reason why so many people doubt in God is because he seems so inactive at the moment. I mean if God wanted to, why he could strike down Suddam Huesein with a lightning bolt shaped in a finger or show his true power and glory.
It seems to me the wonder days back in Babylon, Egypt, Alexandria, Jesus, the bible (that is if you believe they existed) are gone. The world seems boring as it is, there is no sense of adventure or curiosity that was felt back in the "old" days. The surprising and sad thing is people are being more constrained in their own homes and limited to doing things and that is probably how the term "boring" was created (jk).
With the advent of new technologies and with Science at our side, who needs a God, right? Now that we have basic human rights and more knowledge. To me, the only way that a non believer will accept God is by experiencing his love and joy. I think God is "dormant," because we are more complicated than we were thousands of years ago, that we refuise to believe in him, because we have found ways to explain his non existence.
Life may be a test, If there is indeed a God of omnipotence, he is probably watching us very carefully and planning something great.
I believe in order for someone to come to a conclusion that God does exist, one has to *believe* and set aside all his thoughts. It requires a lot of faith and dedication. If I remember correctly, Jesus said that anyone who wants to be a disciple of him has to set aside everything, become like children (simpleminded), and carry a cross.
God will probably reward those with simple minds and open hearts by showing them his love, which they will experience through the Holy Spirit and so forth.
-Euoplocephalus, to you and everyone else, has anyone noticed how the creation of the world and universe run in correct chronological order with evolution, somewhat? correct me
-Peace to this discussion
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I'm not sure what you mean there, are you saying all evolution has been building up to producing us? Evolution doesn't follow a straight line as such, it's extreamly random. If you look just at human evolution there are dozens of homonids who never survived for more than a few thousand years, offshoots that died off as their environment changed or were outclassed by another species. Evolution produces more dead ends than success stories, and even the most adaptive creatures still can fall prey to wild environmental changes. We are possibly the most adaptive of all the species that have ever come into being simply because we can alter our environment to suit our needs. We are still vunerable to environmental changes though; the El Nino effect here in Australia has devestated many farmers.
[sarcasm]I mean, that's a lot of people. they couldn't all be making it up could they ? I mean, that's only something that happens nowadays. It couldn't have possibly happened when mankind was still putting faith in the healing power of smashing in a person's skull with a rock and twiddling with their brain because they had a headache.[/sarcasm]
Thats a bit of stretch. There isn't any scientific disagreement that evolution occurs. The disagreement is over the mechanisms and timeframe.
[hypothetically]does the outlaw in my example care that jesus died for him? no, he just wants the good life. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Sigh*
I <i>REALLY</i> didn't want to do this, as I know that it's just going to open up a big can of worms, but I feel, given the circumstances, it addresses the argument. I guess I'll have to bust out Hebrews....
Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
This passage is open to many interpretations, one of which being that if you keep on sinning after you've become a Christian, then you go to hell.
This, of course, is wrong; If you have to not sin to still go to heaven, then you are maintaining your salvation by law, and therefore, you are not being saved by grace anymore. According to Christian teaching, the grace of God is the only reason you get into heaven, your asking for the love and the forgiveness of Christ. So, this cannot apply to already existing Christians.
To whom, then, does this harsh passage apply? "After recieving knowledge of the truth" says, basicly, to those that have heard the message, but have chosen not to act on it. Seems like your aquaintances.
If somebody honestly couldn't believe that there is a God, and then came to beleive otherwise later, then I can't believe that God would punish ignorance. However, if someone _plans_ on exploiting His generosity and forgiveness, then that's not loveing god. That's not even likeing God, its a selfish desire to live forever, at the expense of Christ. (Sure, he's perfect, but the punishment for every sin you've ever committed and ever will commit has <b>got</b> to be painful.) If you want more detail on this passage, PM me, I'll tell you more about it.
Do you risk it, or do you 'play it safe'
i mean, how was he to know that rape was evil and bad?
or of course, there is always those who can play dumb. (sure i know about the bible, never read it)
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses
this passage is an open invitation for corruption.
person 1: she is a witch!
person 2:she turned me into a newt!
lady: i'm not a witch!
person 3:yes you are!
lady proceeds to be tied to a stake and burned alive. after all, 3 people stating she is a pagen heathen wench can't be wrong
[kudos to whoever catches the joke i put in there]
If he truely begs forgiveness, then that's grace. God's just more loving/forgiving then we are, and that's probably not a bad thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses
this passage is an open invitation for corruption. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This verse here is simply citing events from the OT, not condoning them. The laws in the OT, as I've said, were there to make Israel a country where sin was against the law, in order to keep it ready to deliver a savior, and present Him to the world. Under present conditions, a lot of OT law lends itself to corruption. Different times make for different uses of the word, sadly.
However, this verse simply is saying that if someone can die for rejecting the law, how much greater is the punishment for those who reject the Christ, who was untold times greater then the law. For more in this thought, Romans 5-8 is a great passage for it.
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I'm not sure what you mean there, are you saying all evolution has been building up to producing us? Evolution doesn't follow a straight line as such, it's extreamly random. If you look just at human evolution there are dozens of homonids who never survived for more than a few thousand years, offshoots that died off as their environment changed or were outclassed by another species. Evolution produces more dead ends than success stories, and even the most adaptive creatures still can fall prey to wild environmental changes. We are possibly the most adaptive of all the species that have ever come into being simply because we can alter our environment to suit our needs. We are still vunerable to environmental changes though; the El Nino effect here in Australia has devestated many farmers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um depending on what you, mean by chronological order, maybe. There is a fairly accurate way to correlate the six "days" of creation in Genesis to what actualy happened, I forgot the exact method but if you define a day differently (a good argument for doing this was presented at the end of the movie "Inherent the Wind") but by a set change in amount you can twist everything in to six progressively shorter "days". We would be in the seventh "day" now when God is resting......kinda a scary thought, although it would explian a lot.
Ryo does also have a good point about the "randomness" of evolution, sort of. Evolution isn't random, the mutations and onotological variations that lead to evolution of new species are. In the most simplified explination of evolution is that if a mutation gives a small advantage to survival, and therefore the chances of the induvidual passing on it's genes and that particular advantage to it's offspring it will continue to be passed on. It is tempting to say that evolution is random, because then we can't understand it, and don't have to try, but evolution, at least over a large period of time, is not random. Furthermore saying evolution has produced more dead-ends than sucesses is a poor statement, more than 90 percent of the species that have exsisted on Earth are now extinct, but that doesn't nessicarly mean that they aren't success stories, they might have evolved into some other species, or maybe they went extinct with out evolving into anything, but that doesn't mean they were dead-ends. Look at my personal favorite class Dinosauria, they are extinct now, well the non-avian ones are, but they lived for over 150 million years, is that not a success story? And anyways all genuses, including us, have a average lifespan of at most a few million years, there are exceptions, but either going extinct or evolving into something else fairly quickly(geologicaly speaking) is the rule. Just because something is alive at this instant in time does not mean that it is anymore succesful than something that lived in the past. But if he ment that evolution is complex and not easly understood/boiled down into a chronology then he is completely correct. Phylogeny and cladistics, the study of how things evolved, trying to make an evolutionary tree , is a very popular, and very hotly debated, subject within the field of paleontology now.
The only part of Ryo's post I would completely discredit is his statement about enviromental changes. Yes El Nino did have an negative effect on farmers, but as a species we survived. Furthermore much of the negative fallout for farmers was economic, if they were allowed to do whatever was in their physical power to obtian food, I doubt anyone would have starved. If anything our species has been making it's self <i>less</i> enviromentaly robust, by creating a soceity where, for economic reasons farmers no longer produce food to feed themsevles, but concetrate on a few products which they seel so they can buy food and other things deemed important, which leaves them more exposed to problems. Look at South and Central American, there is a very large problem now because many subsitance farmers switched over to growing coffee, which then dropped in price leaving many farmers, who in the past had been able to grow all the food they needed, are now living in poverty, starving to death. Environmental changes do play a role in evolution, but not the "wild" ones as much as the slower, less localized ones, like major global temperature changes or oxygen ratio in the atmosphere.
Hope that makes some sense.......
Do you risk it, or do you 'play it safe' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well from the Yezidii viewpoint they are willing to gamble. That isnt my viewpoint, but then again the Xtian viewpoint isnt mine either.
that was the next point i was going to bring up.
yes, you do burn if you believe in buddha or whatnot.
christianity is full of that kind of elitist crap throughout history-need i even mention "the white mans burden"
that was the next point i was going to bring up.
yes, you do burn if you believe in buddha or whatnot.
christianity is full of that kind of elitist crap throughout history-need i even mention "the white mans burden" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
please explain yourself further.
what "Elitist crap", and just what is the "White mans burden"?
1) If you've never heard the name Jesus, you go straight to hell.
2) If you've never been told of God, then you get a second chance, wether in the afterlife or via re-incarnation.
3) God has made himself apparent through nature, and thus, you SHOULD be able to figure out that he exists, and that he sent a messiah for you.
The third one seems the most probable to me, but there's really no definate answer. Through the Bible though, you see that God is a just God. Everything he does IS warrneted, like it or not, and him being our creator, he could really do what he wants anyway. Beyond that though, Above everything else, he is fair and loving.
Exodus 34:4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands.
5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD.
6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,
7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."
So, condemning someone forever for someone else's fault seems off of God's character, and there's very little biblical backing for re-incarnation. In fact, I preaches against it.
Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
So, the third one is really, in my mind, the only appropriate response. In fact, I was talking to one of my youth group leaders about this a while ago, and I guess there's a book called <u>Eternity in Their Hearts</u>, Which talks about a tribe in Africa, untouched by civilization, that somehow came up with the idea that there was a God, and that he sent his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. As Paul says...
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Hope that answers your question.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->christianity is full of that kind of elitist crap throughout history-need i even mention "the white mans burden" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've tried to be patient with you, but it's wearing thin. In any case, you can get to heaven without Jesus.....
You just have to be perfect. The whole idea behind Jesus is that his death was the payment for your sins. If you have no sins that need payment for, you're good, but everyone does, so you need Jesus.
Please, check your predisposed ignorance and hatred towards my faith at the door. Thanks.