<!--QuoteBegin---=_Fennec Fox_=-+Mar 7 2003, 12:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-=_Fennec Fox_=- @ Mar 7 2003, 12:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The difference, though, is that where you'd have 10 HP and no armor (I've never seen a skulk with 5 HP. Either ten or dead. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->), a regen skulk would have died before it had killed all five marines if it had taken that much damage. Cara is what you use when you know you're going to take damage. Regen is what you use when you know you're going to take damage but you think you can get away from the damage so you can actually use it.
Evil combo of the moment - Two hive Lerk + Umbra + Adren + Regen <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regeneration is great if you know how to use it properly. You are assuming I just jumped right in and attacked all marines toe to toe like I had carapace. A smart skulk who takes advantage of regeneration will kill one marine, then hide take cover & heal, kill some more, take cover & heal, kill some more until the base is cleared. Your HP is infinite so as long as you never actually <i>die</i> in the first place. You need to judge the situation properly to effectively use regeneration.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
You regenerate about what...7 or 8 hp a tick with regen? It's probably faster just to run back to a hive and heal and get carapace instead. And when you regen, you make this LOUD noise, which tells marines exactly where you are. Plus you don't get the longevity in battle. you still die in 9 bullets. (10 if you count the regen)
jeese man lvl 3 cara + lerk is like the bomb man. Id put my neck on the line here and say mass(1/2 - 2/3 team population) lerk is MORE important than 2nd hive as the harrassment and defensive values of these beauties (20 lmg hits/9 pistol hits, fastest unit in the game SIGNIFICANTLY, agile + hard to hit) can keep half teched marines at bay so that you can cap most res on the map then hive2 and instantly fade.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You regenerate about what...7 or 8 hp a tick with regen? It's probably faster just to run back to a hive and heal and get carapace instead. And when you regen, you make this LOUD noise, which tells marines exactly where you are. Plus you don't get the longevity in battle. you still die in 9 bullets. (10 if you count the regen) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, that's not the point of regeneration. You're not supposed to be using it as a real healing method. If you run from battle, then you're better off dead since if you run = no skulk presence = marine victory. Just because you kill a few and then run off doesn't mean you've won, in fact you've lost because now the 2 marines you left built a turret and a phase by the time you got back. Regeneration = constant pressure. If you take too much damage, you can run for cover (NOT hide like you're thinking). They will not build for as long as you creep around their expansion and if they start building it just makes it easier to kill whoever is building.
A good place to use regeneration is reactor room. There are two big cylinders that are great for playing keep away from the marines. If they built RTs, it is even better since you've doubled your possible cover.
One of the best things about regeneration is in a group assault. You can easily mix yourself up with your skulk buddies so that whoever was shooting at you gets confused and tracks the nearest skulk instead, giving you time to regenerate whatever health you lost. If you're lucky, no marines will aim for you and go after your friends and end up healing completely during the battle.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Error404:+Mar 7 2003, 02:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Error404: @ Mar 7 2003, 02:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [I also doubt the figures that Savant sourced. I haven't done the mathematics or testing, but by playing Level 2 and Level 3 Carapaced skulk, I just <i>know</i> that there is a difference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There definately is ... in 1.03, the difference between lvl 2 and lvl 3 carap was 18/19 lmg bullets, so the difference wasn't much. In 1.04, it's 14 vs 19, so you should always strive for lvl 3 carap quickly, rather than leaving it at lvl 1 or 2 for long - you save res by ensuring the skulks live longer and thus have to pay for carapace less often.
I often find myself going gorge to put up three DC's in a vent somewhere fairly early in the game. The CC vent in eclipse is a given - against a good marine team, I tell my team that I'll gorge for DC's in the vent RIGHT from the start, while another gorge caps res towers. That ensures not only that the skulks can fight well, but also that the CC is almost impossible to hold for the marines, as they are forced to build in inside the healing range from the DC's.
Cheapest way to force a commander to build a siege to take them out before he can try for CC.
<!--QuoteBegin--matso42+Mar 10 2003, 05:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Mar 10 2003, 05:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> .. in 1.03, the difference between lvl 2 and lvl 3 carap was 18/19 lmg bullets, so the difference wasn't much. In 1.04, it's 14 vs 19, so you should always strive for lvl 3 carap quickly, rather than leaving it at lvl 1 or 2 for long - you save res by ensuring the skulks live longer and thus have to pay for carapace less often.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes I was right then, better to trust your instincts than someone's posted stats.
I was going to make that point too, that skulks aren't forking out 2 res each time they die for bog standard carapace.
Level 3 carapaced skulks play more offensively, with a good kharaa team, that difference can really put the pressure on the marine team, ie. more rushes to base and taking out vital marine buildings, wasting their resources.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited March 2003
I prefer dropping 4 res towers in addition to my initial one, then building hive 2 and dropping DCS/OCS then building hive three, then dropping defences. By this point (if not already to build the precious damn DCs) some other gimp will be sucking the res pool dry with tactically useless structures, so I either cap the rest of the map, build a forward DC base to attack from or go skulk.
Doing it in that particular order allows Kharaa to have 3 hives within about 8 minutes of the start of the game, or at least 2 if one of them has had to be sacrificed. This is why I also like movement chambers first, as the gorge can heal the skulks at the new hive if necessary, whilst the movement chambers give not just lovely marine hunting upgrades and improved Lerk capabilities, but an instant teleport to the original hive if it comes under sustained attack. It also allows Kharaa to travel "to a hive under attack" which IIRC includes ones that are building.
But a good gorge will be flexible, responding to the needs of the team and marine incursions. If marines are aggressively targeting your nodes, it might be as well to build OCs/DCs around them, for example. There is no "correct" or incorrect" way to play NS, but there are stupid responses to tactical situations.
I get DCs after the first RT for DC rush. Get your skulks upgrades earlier and they'll benefit from it. Usually, with a really good alien team, this can mean victory.
Every succesful clan i have ever played against has had lv3 carapace up early. The ones that didn't, were usually pummeled into the ground in a matter of minutes.
lv3 carapace is the most significant turning point in the early game, without DCs marine combat advantage is so great that they can hold you in your hive. Carapace is a necessity to overcome marine pressure and regain map control, because when there are 4 marines in, or patrolling outside your hive killing anything that leaves, and another marine running around the map capping res towers and hunting your gorge, it doesn't matter how much res you have saved. You won't hold 4 res nodes against competant marines when your skulks can't hold off the other team. Killing defence chambers is a priority for us, because if we keep carapace down we can control the map. Capping res node after res node with no DCs is a strategy against marine teams who sit in their base and <b>give</b> you the map.
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Mar 12 2003, 05:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Mar 12 2003, 05:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Killing defence chambers is a priority for us, because if we keep carapace down we can control the map. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats why it's always better to put up 3 DC instead of have 2 DC for too long because if the marines know that the gorge is being stingy, all they'll need to do is kill 1 Defence chamber and suddenly skulks are real easy to kill. At least with 3 Defence chambers, if they kill 1 DC, you're still quite strong.
I truly hate gorges that go straight for a second hivesite to gorge and build an RT. It's insanely dangerous, because even if you have someone backing you up, there will be marines checking hivesites and it will be a piece of cake for a marine to kill your defender and then kill you as well (0 upgrades). I like gorges that go gorge near the main hive and try to capture the closest available resource tower and ask first if the way and the site are clear... A lot safer since you can heal next to the hive and get backup easier.
Im a bad gorge I just tend to hunt down as many free rts as I can and cap them unless we need dcs then I bang them down. Im the only person in the universe that believes in early cara lerks.
I'd rather have early carapaced Lerks against unupgraded marines, than rush for Fades against HA marines.
Contrary to what most people say, I think the aliens have the advantage early game, because they can upgrade faster than the marines. Thats something that should be taken advantage of. If you don't get the Defence Chamber upgrades up, and instead save for the 2nd hive, you lose the edge.
Well said. I get twice the kills as a 3 cara skulk than i do as an unupgraded Fade. Especially early on (aka anytime before HA/HMG) Although i do suck as fade, but eh.
<!--QuoteBegin--Error404:+Mar 15 2003, 06:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Error404: @ Mar 15 2003, 06:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd rather have early carapaced Lerks against unupgraded marines, than rush for Fades against HA marines.
Contrary to what most people say, I think the aliens have the advantage early game, because they can upgrade faster than the marines. Thats something that should be taken advantage of. If you don't get the Defence Chamber upgrades up, and instead save for the 2nd hive, you lose the edge. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, aliens can upgrade faster, but their tech is capped by the number of hives. I hear they are gonna change that.
I just got done reading the entire topic! All I have seen here is proof that 2 gorges are better than one. My current start is to get up 1 rt then a dc. (I get redemtions too) I do this regaurdless if thier are 2 gorges or 1. Where the second is great is 1 can cap 2 res near a unoccupied hive and start saving for it while the other gorge builds the remaining 2 dc and protects first hive so that more skulls can protect second hive. I prefer not have pople go lerks so the res can support 2 gorges. Once the second hive is up then lerks are fine. Even in small games 2 gorges can help but I would wait untill the first gorge gets a couple of rt up.
Although the gorge may be the commanding alien he really does not know what is going on. A gorge is really dependent on what the skulls tell him. The gorge needs to know where the marines are and where they are headed. Likewise when I gorge I tell the skulls exactly what I am doing and where I am going.
P.S. 2 gorges only work well if they talk to each other so they know what the other one is doing. I don't know how many times I say I am heading to a hive location to put up a hive, just to find out that when I get there their is another gorge already there. mics are also imporatant if a gorge is typeing then he isn't building or moving. One last thought. All these strategies are good. Just because u see a gorge no using a strat that you would doesn't mean he stinks. Just give the gorge as much information as u can in hope that he uses the right start. Why do I bother typing so much when version 1.1 comes out all this will probably change.
<!--QuoteBegin--Error404:+Mar 2 2003, 09:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Error404: @ Mar 2 2003, 09:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've learnt to be careful with resources, <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> QUOTE (Dead Dragon @ Mar 5 2003, 07:24 PM) I dont vote on poles. And I have no idea what a turrent is. Where's my beer?
Error404: Posted: Mar 5 2003, 09:40 AM I second that.
I agree with taboofires , the better the marine team , the earlyer the Dc's. I usualy get a minimum of 2 Dc's after i have 2-3 resource nodes. If the marines have say, 1-1 , and the skulks are keeping them from expanding (even if they have only one hive locked) Ill stop at 2 DC's and go for hive , otherwise , i go for all 3.
<!--QuoteBegin--ZERG!!+Mar 18 2003, 01:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Mar 18 2003, 01:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, aliens can upgrade faster, but their tech is capped by the number of hives. I hear they are gonna change that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I belive in 1.1 , you can evolve to any species at hive 1 (you can save for it) . But Cambers and skills are still 1 per hive.
Comments
Evil combo of the moment - Two hive Lerk + Umbra + Adren + Regen <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regeneration is great if you know how to use it properly. You are assuming I just jumped right in and attacked all marines toe to toe like I had carapace. A smart skulk who takes advantage of regeneration will kill one marine, then hide take cover & heal, kill some more, take cover & heal, kill some more until the base is cleared. Your HP is infinite so as long as you never actually <i>die</i> in the first place. You need to judge the situation properly to effectively use regeneration.
No, that's not the point of regeneration. You're not supposed to be using it as a real healing method. If you run from battle, then you're better off dead since if you run = no skulk presence = marine victory. Just because you kill a few and then run off doesn't mean you've won, in fact you've lost because now the 2 marines you left built a turret and a phase by the time you got back. Regeneration = constant pressure. If you take too much damage, you can run for cover (NOT hide like you're thinking). They will not build for as long as you creep around their expansion and if they start building it just makes it easier to kill whoever is building.
A good place to use regeneration is reactor room. There are two big cylinders that are great for playing keep away from the marines. If they built RTs, it is even better since you've doubled your possible cover.
One of the best things about regeneration is in a group assault. You can easily mix yourself up with your skulk buddies so that whoever was shooting at you gets confused and tracks the nearest skulk instead, giving you time to regenerate whatever health you lost. If you're lucky, no marines will aim for you and go after your friends and end up healing completely during the battle.
Okay, I'm just ranting now.
</RANT>
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There definately is ... in 1.03, the difference between lvl 2 and lvl 3 carap was 18/19 lmg bullets, so the difference wasn't much. In 1.04, it's 14 vs 19, so you should always strive for lvl 3 carap quickly, rather than leaving it at lvl 1 or 2 for long - you save res by ensuring the skulks live longer and thus have to pay for carapace less often.
I often find myself going gorge to put up three DC's in a vent somewhere fairly early in the game. The CC vent in eclipse is a given - against a good marine team, I tell my team that I'll gorge for DC's in the vent RIGHT from the start, while another gorge caps res towers. That ensures not only that the skulks can fight well, but also that the CC is almost impossible to hold for the marines, as they are forced to build in inside the healing range from the DC's.
Cheapest way to force a commander to build a siege to take them out before he can try for CC.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I was right then, better to trust your instincts than someone's posted stats.
I was going to make that point too, that skulks aren't forking out 2 res each time they die for bog standard carapace.
Level 3 carapaced skulks play more offensively, with a good kharaa team, that difference can really put the pressure on the marine team, ie. more rushes to base and taking out vital marine buildings, wasting their resources.
Doing it in that particular order allows Kharaa to have 3 hives within about 8 minutes of the start of the game, or at least 2 if one of them has had to be sacrificed. This is why I also like movement chambers first, as the gorge can heal the skulks at the new hive if necessary, whilst the movement chambers give not just lovely marine hunting upgrades and improved Lerk capabilities, but an instant teleport to the original hive if it comes under sustained attack. It also allows Kharaa to travel "to a hive under attack" which IIRC includes ones that are building.
But a good gorge will be flexible, responding to the needs of the team and marine incursions. If marines are aggressively targeting your nodes, it might be as well to build OCs/DCs around them, for example. There is no "correct" or incorrect" way to play NS, but there are stupid responses to tactical situations.
lv3 carapace is the most significant turning point in the early game, without DCs marine combat advantage is so great that they can hold you in your hive. Carapace is a necessity to overcome marine pressure and regain map control, because when there are 4 marines in, or patrolling outside your hive killing anything that leaves, and another marine running around the map capping res towers and hunting your gorge, it doesn't matter how much res you have saved. You won't hold 4 res nodes against competant marines when your skulks can't hold off the other team. Killing defence chambers is a priority for us, because if we keep carapace down we can control the map. Capping res node after res node with no DCs is a strategy against marine teams who sit in their base and <b>give</b> you the map.
Thats why it's always better to put up 3 DC instead of have 2 DC for too long because if the marines know that the gorge is being stingy, all they'll need to do is kill 1 Defence chamber and suddenly skulks are real easy to kill. At least with 3 Defence chambers, if they kill 1 DC, you're still quite strong.
Good point TeoH.
Contrary to what most people say, I think the aliens have the advantage early game, because they can upgrade faster than the marines. Thats something that should be taken advantage of. If you don't get the Defence Chamber upgrades up, and instead save for the 2nd hive, you lose the edge.
Especially early on (aka anytime before HA/HMG)
Although i do suck as fade, but eh.
Contrary to what most people say, I think the aliens have the advantage early game, because they can upgrade faster than the marines. Thats something that should be taken advantage of. If you don't get the Defence Chamber upgrades up, and instead save for the 2nd hive, you lose the edge. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, aliens can upgrade faster, but their tech is capped by the number of hives. I hear they are gonna change that.
Although the gorge may be the commanding alien he really does not know what is going on. A gorge is really dependent on what the skulls tell him. The gorge needs to know where the marines are and where they are headed. Likewise when I gorge I tell the skulls exactly what I am doing and where I am going.
P.S. 2 gorges only work well if they talk to each other so they know what the other one is doing. I don't know how many times I say I am heading to a hive location to put up a hive, just to find out that when I get there their is another gorge already there. mics are also imporatant if a gorge is typeing then he isn't building or moving. One last thought. All these strategies are good. Just because u see a gorge no using a strat that you would doesn't mean he stinks. Just give the gorge as much information as u can in hope that he uses the right start.
Why do I bother typing so much when version 1.1 comes out all this will probably change.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
QUOTE (Dead Dragon @ Mar 5 2003, 07:24 PM)
I dont vote on poles. And I have no idea what a turrent is. Where's my beer?
Error404: Posted: Mar 5 2003, 09:40 AM
I second that.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What does learnt mean? Hahahaha
just playin.
I agree with taboofires , the better the marine team , the earlyer the Dc's.
I usualy get a minimum of 2 Dc's after i have 2-3 resource nodes. If the marines have say, 1-1 , and the skulks are keeping them from expanding (even if they have only one hive locked) Ill stop at 2 DC's and go for hive , otherwise , i go for all 3.
I belive in 1.1 , you can evolve to any species at hive 1 (you can save for it) . But Cambers and skills are still 1 per hive.