<!--QuoteBegin--Ollj+Mar 10 2003, 05:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Mar 10 2003, 05:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--FireStorm+Mar 10 2003, 10:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FireStorm @ Mar 10 2003, 10:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A particle is a BIG sprite, not the tiny one I suppose you imagine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know what sprites are, where is the broblem? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If the parti_cles are big, they can't use the standard physics code, because they wouldn't fit into vents...
<!--QuoteBegin--Fluffybunny+Mar 10 2003, 12:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fluffybunny @ Mar 10 2003, 12:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem of balancing can be fixed easy as pie (thinks about pie.. umm). all you would have to do with a volumetric flamer it to make enough ammo to last for about 3 seconds then have to change gas cartrages or somthing witch would also take about 3 seconds. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That just means you need an HMG'er or two with you. Just like the GL, the flamethrower would be a support weapon. HMG is kinda a general purpose weapon, while the GL and the would-be FT are specific use.
I'm thinking the FT would be best if it *wasn't* good against WOL, because it would negate the purpose of the GL. Oh well, I don't think the FT is ever going to make prime time, as flayra thinks a P2-400 runs NS as it is right now. WTH is he smoking, it eats my 2.0GHz P4 Radeon 9500 Pro SCSI system for lunch. Yeah for the phase gate dynamic blinking raver light HALVING my framerate.
I'm thinking the only practical way for the FT to work like everyone would want would be to hack the maps with something like node_FT entities in the vents so the server has something to gauge how to quickly calculate the flame propogating through vents. A node_FT would be placed, say, every 32 units in confined spaces like vents. When ONE of the nodes gets hit by a FT, the adjacent nodes all get triggered. The number of additional nodes triggered would be determined by a number like "20 or less," depending on how close the FT marine was to the first node he triggered. A marine 32 units or less away from the location of the first node triggered would get a 20 node string of triggered nodes. A marine at the edge of the FT normal shot (say, like 256 units) would only trigger 2 or 3 nodes. There are lots of different ways of doing that calculation, but you catch my point. Passing strength would be a possibly model, where nodes trigger with an X value, which is something like 90% of the value they were triggered with. It would decay by itself, and would require a cutoff value. From there the numbers are very easy to tweak. Cutoff value and decay value, and debugging the first trigger event. There could even be a value built-in to the nodes themselves for cutoff and decay tweaking. Again, it would be a hack, but it really wouldn't take a lot of complex math. Just some LOS, distance, and simple multiplication. The biggest downside is it would suck up entities really fast. It also means marines would burn themselves up if they shot the FT while in the middle of a vent. Not necessarily a bad or unrealistic event if you ask me.
About the WoL thing, you just *arent* gonna stand 5ft away from a WoL and dose it with flame, cos u will get killed before you did any damage.............
Versus umbra, comon, how often is umbra TOTALLY negated by GLs, and if you think of the FT, again, who the hell is gonna stand 5ft away from a fade and lerk spraying them with flame, and NOT die........
I say 5ft, cos it is a short distance and in open air the FT goes short distances, could even be shorter.......
Think b4 u post about how it unbalances the game...In anycase, it is all speculation.......
-counter to the "we're all going to die if a marine (or marines) with a flame thrower comes after us" train of thought. ...think about it. if the flamethrower (when, and if, implemented..) is implemented with the same amount of quality as everything else, it's more than likely going to be able to set the person using the flame thrower on fire as well...meaning that as an alien you could choose one of two tactics. A: stay away. shoot whatever you can at the flamer (har har), or just run. B: get close. you're going to die anyways, so why not try and deal some damage + possibly catch the guy on fire. I'm assuming that the person using the flame thrower will be able to catch themselves on fire because you can kill yourself with a GL...just makes sense that the other weapon with an actual radius of damage would be able to include the person using the weapon in that radius. On top of that, this is going to probably be a 20-30+ credit weapon, if not more, so commanders aren't going to just throw these things out to their team. It'd be a suicide mission to go into most maps with nothing but pistols/welders (which won't be as accurate by this time if what i've been hearing is going to be implemented) and flame throwers to defend themselves. There's just too much working against the flame thrower to have it be anything more than a good support weapon, much like how the grenade launcher is.
<!--QuoteBegin--Big Chief Brown Bottom+Mar 10 2003, 08:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Big Chief Brown Bottom @ Mar 10 2003, 08:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Mar 10 2003, 07:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Mar 10 2003, 07:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Dodgy Bob, at the moment a decent Lerk (or worse, a Lerk with Fade backup) can tear apart an entire marine team. That's unbalanced. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that is so not true. 1 marine with nade launcher in support= fades/lerk run for thier lives. a single 33 res weap easily takes out a bunch of 33 res lerks + 54 res fades. now THAT is unbalanced. if the flamethrower is as powerful as it sounds right now it better cost a lot of res, or the aliens better have a decent counter to it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> how about the idea that the flamethrower blows up when he looses all his life and to make matters worse, anybody surrounding the flamethrower looses most of his health too (a grenade explosive radius)
<!--QuoteBegin--furyk+Mar 10 2003, 10:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (furyk @ Mar 10 2003, 10:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ive only read a couple threads on this topic but couldnt u just make it like a welder? with a bit more range? i think that makes sense... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i've been thinking of that...and i think THAT would be nice...if only the welding capability can set an alien on fire (since bacterians are flammable), then i would never have to dream of a flamethrower. Instead, I'll use welders to flame up the aliens instead....
I think you guys have some misconceptions about flame throwers...
everyone seems to think that a flamethrower shoots about 5-10ft. In some video games maybe, but in real life, NOPE. WW1 flamethrowers could shoot about 50 yards. Here are some pics to demonstrate how far they REALLY can shoot.
maybe im being a jerk, but it drives me crazy when people characterize crap because of how it is in movies and video games.
most real flamethrowers have some sort of choke like shotguns may have, that affects the spray of the flamable medium. Think of those garden hoses. The spray ark and intensity of the spray vary accorging to how hard you pull the trigger. Also, appart from roasting your foe, flame throwers deprive your target of oxygen, which often is the thing that kills your enemy.
I guess i dont care how they do Flamethrowers in NS, even with TFC sprites! I just hope its really violent and fun.
it should adhere to the following to satisfy me:
1)flamethrowers shouldnt work underwater. 2)They should have some sort of Rate of Fire limiter (heat as in mg42 DoD, Small fuel "clips"/"tanks" 3)they should encumber the user , as does HMG / HA 4)they should Blow up if the user get hit in the back <the tank> (perhaps random chance of detonation if hit there) 5)The flame should leave behind small fires or glowing embers/whatever 6)players/structures hit by the flame should burn for a short perfiod of time. (alien vs predator *wink *wink) 7) maybe, if they overheat, they can blowup. (friendly fire style)
I know some of this can be chuggy to render, so i really dont care if it isnt visually stunning. As long as i can fire it and it looks like a flamethrower , ill be happy. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Completely pointless subnote:
During one of the press conferences for Aliens, Sigourney Weaver demonstrated the flamethrower she famously brandishes in the movie poster. She almost suceeded in torching several members of the press corp when it transpired that the choke on the flamethrower was jammed on maximum and a huge gout of flame came out.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Well, I was gonna post what BlueTorpedo did, but he has, so I won't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm thinking the FT would be best if it *wasn't* good against WOL, because it would negate the purpose of the GL. Oh well, I don't think the FT is ever going to make prime time, as flayra thinks a P2-400 runs NS as it is right now. WTH is he smoking, it eats my 2.0GHz P4 Radeon 9500 Pro SCSI system for lunch. Yeah for the phase gate dynamic blinking raver light HALVING my framerate. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm <i>positive</i> there's a discrepancy somewhere for all of us. Because if you have issues, and I can run my GF2MX 1.3Ghz 512Mb and never get slowdown, even if I <b>TRY</b>, there's something going crazy around here.
Whatever happens, I hope they find a better way of showing you 'on fire' than the basic overlay most games seem to use, as it really lets it down. Look at RTCW's actual FT, and go 'WOOOOoooooo' then get hit by it, look at the crappy graphic that overlay's your HUD, and go 'Bleh.' because it's just not very good.
The way to prevent excessive FT usage is simple. If the aliens are still 'mostly' capable of activity whilst on fire, you'll probably die killing your first bug, as it will come after you, and you WILL die.
I suggest anyone wanting an amusing game with Flamethrowers plays the Space Hulk boardgame. The usage of 'blocking' with it, is a very good one.
<!--QuoteBegin--BlueTorpeedo+Mar 11 2003, 12:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueTorpeedo @ Mar 11 2003, 12:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think you guys have some misconceptions about flame throwers...
everyone seems to think that a flamethrower shoots about 5-10ft. In some video games maybe, but in real life, NOPE. WW1 flamethrowers could shoot about 50 yards. Here are some pics to demonstrate how far they REALLY can shoot.
maybe im being a jerk, but it drives me crazy when people characterize crap because of how it is in movies and video games.
most real flamethrowers have some sort of choke like shotguns may have, that affects the spray of the flamable medium. Think of those garden hoses. The spray ark and intensity of the spray vary accorging to how hard you pull the trigger. Also, appart from roasting your foe, flame throwers deprive your target of oxygen, which often is the thing that kills your enemy.
I guess i dont care how they do Flamethrowers in NS, even with TFC sprites! I just hope its really violent and fun.
it should adhere to the following to satisfy me:
1)flamethrowers shouldnt work underwater. 2)They should have some sort of Rate of Fire limiter (heat as in mg42 DoD, Small fuel "clips"/"tanks" 3)they should encumber the user , as does HMG / HA 4)they should Blow up if the user get hit in the back <the tank> (perhaps random chance of detonation if hit there) 5)The flame should leave behind small fires or glowing embers/whatever 6)players/structures hit by the flame should burn for a short perfiod of time. (alien vs predator *wink *wink) 7) maybe, if they overheat, they can blowup. (friendly fire style)
I know some of this can be chuggy to render, so i really dont care if it isnt visually stunning. As long as i can fire it and it looks like a flamethrower , ill be happy. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> how about this one too: can not reload in the middle...have to use up your flame-gel before inserting a second one. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Dodgy Bob+Mar 10 2003, 07:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dodgy Bob @ Mar 10 2003, 07:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Noooooooooo God no! Talk about unbalancing the game. Yes it would look cool but it would just wipe away the whole point of Umbra, causing all sorts of game balance issues. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Doesn't grenades do that anyway?
and if you want, fried gorge sticks!!! although i don't wanna kill gorges for the rest of my life. in fact, it's a violation of my "save-the-gorge treaty" if i kill one.
Comments
I know what sprites are, where is the broblem? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the parti_cles are big, they can't use the standard physics code, because they wouldn't fit into vents...
That just means you need an HMG'er or two with you. Just like the GL, the flamethrower would be a support weapon. HMG is kinda a general purpose weapon, while the GL and the would-be FT are specific use.
I'm thinking the FT would be best if it *wasn't* good against WOL, because it would negate the purpose of the GL. Oh well, I don't think the FT is ever going to make prime time, as flayra thinks a P2-400 runs NS as it is right now. WTH is he smoking, it eats my 2.0GHz P4 Radeon 9500 Pro SCSI system for lunch. Yeah for the phase gate dynamic blinking raver light HALVING my framerate.
I'm thinking the only practical way for the FT to work like everyone would want would be to hack the maps with something like node_FT entities in the vents so the server has something to gauge how to quickly calculate the flame propogating through vents. A node_FT would be placed, say, every 32 units in confined spaces like vents. When ONE of the nodes gets hit by a FT, the adjacent nodes all get triggered. The number of additional nodes triggered would be determined by a number like "20 or less," depending on how close the FT marine was to the first node he triggered. A marine 32 units or less away from the location of the first node triggered would get a 20 node string of triggered nodes. A marine at the edge of the FT normal shot (say, like 256 units) would only trigger 2 or 3 nodes. There are lots of different ways of doing that calculation, but you catch my point. Passing strength would be a possibly model, where nodes trigger with an X value, which is something like 90% of the value they were triggered with. It would decay by itself, and would require a cutoff value. From there the numbers are very easy to tweak. Cutoff value and decay value, and debugging the first trigger event. There could even be a value built-in to the nodes themselves for cutoff and decay tweaking. Again, it would be a hack, but it really wouldn't take a lot of complex math. Just some LOS, distance, and simple multiplication. The biggest downside is it would suck up entities really fast. It also means marines would burn themselves up if they shot the FT while in the middle of a vent. Not necessarily a bad or unrealistic event if you ask me.
Versus umbra, comon, how often is umbra TOTALLY negated by GLs, and if you think of the FT, again, who the hell is gonna stand 5ft away from a fade and lerk spraying them with flame, and NOT die........
I say 5ft, cos it is a short distance and in open air the FT goes short distances, could even be shorter.......
Think b4 u post about how it unbalances the game...In anycase, it is all speculation.......
...think about it. if the flamethrower (when, and if, implemented..) is implemented with the same amount of quality as everything else, it's more than likely going to be able to set the person using the flame thrower on fire as well...meaning that as an alien you could choose one of two tactics.
A: stay away. shoot whatever you can at the flamer (har har), or just run. B: get close. you're going to die anyways, so why not try and deal some damage + possibly catch the guy on fire.
I'm assuming that the person using the flame thrower will be able to catch themselves on fire because you can kill yourself with a GL...just makes sense that the other weapon with an actual radius of damage would be able to include the person using the weapon in that radius.
On top of that, this is going to probably be a 20-30+ credit weapon, if not more, so commanders aren't going to just throw these things out to their team. It'd be a suicide mission to go into most maps with nothing but pistols/welders (which won't be as accurate by this time if what i've been hearing is going to be implemented) and flame throwers to defend themselves. There's just too much working against the flame thrower to have it be anything more than a good support weapon, much like how the grenade launcher is.
that is so not true. 1 marine with nade launcher in support= fades/lerk run for thier lives. a single 33 res weap easily takes out a bunch of 33 res lerks + 54 res fades. now THAT is unbalanced.
if the flamethrower is as powerful as it sounds right now it better cost a lot of res, or the aliens better have a decent counter to it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
how about the idea that the flamethrower blows up when he looses all his life and to make matters worse, anybody surrounding the flamethrower looses most of his health too (a grenade explosive radius)
i've been thinking of that...and i think THAT would be nice...if only the welding capability can set an alien on fire (since bacterians are flammable), then i would never have to dream of a flamethrower. Instead, I'll use welders to flame up the aliens instead....
everyone seems to think that a flamethrower shoots about 5-10ft. In some video games maybe, but in real life, NOPE. WW1 flamethrowers could shoot about 50 yards. Here are some pics to demonstrate how far they REALLY can shoot.
<a href='http://www.secretarmies.com/images/flame.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.secretarmies.com/images/flame.jpg</a>
<a href='http://www.pieceuniquegallery.com/swanson/pix/DS6601_closeup.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.pieceuniquegallery.com/swanson/...601_closeup.jpg</a>
<a href='http://www.45thdivision.org/Pictures/Photo%20Gallery/reenacting_photos/flamethrower.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.45thdivision.org/Pictures/Photo...lamethrower.jpg</a>
<a href='http://www.watsonsweapons.com/gallery/images/flamethrower.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.watsonsweapons.com/gallery/imag...lamethrower.jpg</a>
maybe im being a jerk, but it drives me crazy when people characterize crap because of how it is in movies and video games.
most real flamethrowers have some sort of choke like shotguns may have, that affects the spray of the flamable medium. Think of those garden hoses. The spray ark and intensity of the spray vary accorging to how hard you pull the trigger. Also, appart from roasting your foe, flame throwers deprive your target of oxygen, which often is the thing that kills your enemy.
I guess i dont care how they do Flamethrowers in NS, even with TFC sprites! I just hope its really violent and fun.
it should adhere to the following to satisfy me:
1)flamethrowers shouldnt work underwater.
2)They should have some sort of Rate of Fire limiter (heat as in mg42 DoD, Small fuel "clips"/"tanks"
3)they should encumber the user , as does HMG / HA
4)they should Blow up if the user get hit in the back <the tank> (perhaps random chance of detonation if hit there)
5)The flame should leave behind small fires or glowing embers/whatever
6)players/structures hit by the flame should burn for a short perfiod of time. (alien vs predator *wink *wink)
7) maybe, if they overheat, they can blowup. (friendly fire style)
I know some of this can be chuggy to render, so i really dont care if it isnt visually stunning. As long as i can fire it and it looks like a flamethrower , ill be happy. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
During one of the press conferences for Aliens, Sigourney Weaver demonstrated the flamethrower she famously brandishes in the movie poster. She almost suceeded in torching several members of the press corp when it transpired that the choke on the flamethrower was jammed on maximum and a huge gout of flame came out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm thinking the FT would be best if it *wasn't* good against WOL, because it would negate the purpose of the GL. Oh well, I don't think the FT is ever going to make prime time, as flayra thinks a P2-400 runs NS as it is right now. WTH is he smoking, it eats my 2.0GHz P4 Radeon 9500 Pro SCSI system for lunch. Yeah for the phase gate dynamic blinking raver light HALVING my framerate.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm <i>positive</i> there's a discrepancy somewhere for all of us. Because if you have issues, and I can run my GF2MX 1.3Ghz 512Mb and never get slowdown, even if I <b>TRY</b>, there's something going crazy around here.
Whatever happens, I hope they find a better way of showing you 'on fire' than the basic overlay most games seem to use, as it really lets it down. Look at RTCW's actual FT, and go 'WOOOOoooooo' then get hit by it, look at the crappy graphic that overlay's your HUD, and go 'Bleh.' because it's just not very good.
The way to prevent excessive FT usage is simple. If the aliens are still 'mostly' capable of activity whilst on fire, you'll probably die killing your first bug, as it will come after you, and you WILL die.
I suggest anyone wanting an amusing game with Flamethrowers plays the Space Hulk boardgame. The usage of 'blocking' with it, is a very good one.
everyone seems to think that a flamethrower shoots about 5-10ft. In some video games maybe, but in real life, NOPE. WW1 flamethrowers could shoot about 50 yards. Here are some pics to demonstrate how far they REALLY can shoot.
<a href='http://www.secretarmies.com/images/flame.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.secretarmies.com/images/flame.jpg</a>
<a href='http://www.pieceuniquegallery.com/swanson/pix/DS6601_closeup.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.pieceuniquegallery.com/swanson/...601_closeup.jpg</a>
<a href='http://www.45thdivision.org/Pictures/Photo%20Gallery/reenacting_photos/flamethrower.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.45thdivision.org/Pictures/Photo...lamethrower.jpg</a>
<a href='http://www.watsonsweapons.com/gallery/images/flamethrower.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.watsonsweapons.com/gallery/imag...lamethrower.jpg</a>
maybe im being a jerk, but it drives me crazy when people characterize crap because of how it is in movies and video games.
most real flamethrowers have some sort of choke like shotguns may have, that affects the spray of the flamable medium. Think of those garden hoses. The spray ark and intensity of the spray vary accorging to how hard you pull the trigger. Also, appart from roasting your foe, flame throwers deprive your target of oxygen, which often is the thing that kills your enemy.
I guess i dont care how they do Flamethrowers in NS, even with TFC sprites! I just hope its really violent and fun.
it should adhere to the following to satisfy me:
1)flamethrowers shouldnt work underwater.
2)They should have some sort of Rate of Fire limiter (heat as in mg42 DoD, Small fuel "clips"/"tanks"
3)they should encumber the user , as does HMG / HA
4)they should Blow up if the user get hit in the back <the tank> (perhaps random chance of detonation if hit there)
5)The flame should leave behind small fires or glowing embers/whatever
6)players/structures hit by the flame should burn for a short perfiod of time. (alien vs predator *wink *wink)
7) maybe, if they overheat, they can blowup. (friendly fire style)
I know some of this can be chuggy to render, so i really dont care if it isnt visually stunning. As long as i can fire it and it looks like a flamethrower , ill be happy. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
how about this one too:
can not reload in the middle...have to use up your flame-gel before inserting a second one. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Doesn't grenades do that anyway?
although it would be funny to see used in tournament mode. crispy marines....