Cheating As A Fade...?

Acrylic

<div class="IPBDescription">^^</div> I know I read this some where but could not find the thred, but I was on hte map hera with 2 hives and blinked up on the glass part to shoot my acid rockets through the glass (u can shoot through think doors/glass/walls/etc.) Now this was ment to be correct? fades are suposed to be able to shoot through?

Supernorn

yeah, acid rockets can go through walls if you are close enough...

hoju2

I did not know that. . .
But this should be in Bug Reports unlelss there's like 50 previous posts on the same subject <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

Acrylic

no, i am pretty sure this is NOT a bug nor exploit, i was just trying to make sure

Rico

I didn't know that .

Supernorn

<!--QuoteBegin--Acrylic+Mar 12 2003, 09:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Acrylic @ Mar 12 2003, 09:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> no, i am pretty sure this is NOT a bug nor exploit, i was just trying to make sure <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i dont think you are meant to actually do it...its just possible <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

Acrylic

well in another post lost within the pages some one siad its in the manual or something

V_MAN

While playing on hera as commander a fade blinked through the grill of the large vent at the top of the Ventilation the fade was protected form gunfire by the grill but could shoot acid rockets down onto the marines and structutes. Later this same player paracited all the structures in my base then went fade and shot acid rockets through the door in cargo storage.

Acrylic

thanks for the story...

FireStorm

IMO, this is just LAME. You shouldn't be able to do that and hopefully it will get removed in 1.1

V_MAN

<!--QuoteBegin--Acrylic+Mar 12 2003, 09:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Acrylic @ Mar 12 2003, 09:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> thanks for the story... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmmmz attitude problem...

I was just giving you an example of when I have seen this happen.

Acrylic

V-Man i am very aware of your intension..no attitude intended, if i siad thanks, i meant thanks

MMZ_Torak

This is a known issue, and IIRC, a half-life issue and not an NS issue; therefore, I wouldn't expect a fix too soon.

FireStorm

THis is a NS issue because the acid rocket appears away from the fade.

Eplekongen

You can also shoot through thin walls as a lerk with spikes. In marine main base at hera the closable door that leads to maintanence and vent hive can be shot through. Though a lerk is so low he cant see through the grill, you need to stand on top of another alien. It happens because the model of the alien goues through the thin walls. Just like when you half the skul imbedded in a tfac munching about.

May I make a note that the marines can hit the parts of the alien that have gone through the wall. Not much of a target though.

I think you can do this with acid rocket, paralysis, parasite, spikes, blink, pretty much all form for ranged weaponery, I will have to check if it works with the gorges babblers and spit. (hehe, babblers at marine main base in hera `_´ ) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->

Sandrock

If the aliens are shooting you through thin walls, wouldn't you be able to knife them back, as the knife has an area of effect in which it causes damages?

CrazedMonkOnaMission

I hope people realize that if this is fixed before the building through walls glitch is fixed it could cause problems.

Kadreallost

The half life engine when it creates impact objects (like rockets) that are not instant hit, it actually makes an object in front of what ever created it (marine with rocket launcher) it creates it slightly far ahead to prevent you from colliding with your own missles if your running foward and fire! thus if you against a thin wall it will creat the object (acid rocket) on the other side of the wall and the game will see no problem with it. So it is a half life issue cause I'm pretty sure all that is hard coded into the game for those type of projectiles, the only way to fix it would to make it insta hit, which wouldn't be too much of a problem with lerk spikes but with insta-hit acid rockets it's just plain unrealistic and marines would be complaining even more about acid rocket. and you'd have to remove bile bomb cause i don't think you can use insta-hit with weapons that have an arc.

Okabore

<!--QuoteBegin--Crazed Monk On a Mission+Mar 12 2003, 07:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crazed Monk On a Mission @ Mar 12 2003, 07:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hope people realize that if this is fixed before the building through walls glitch is fixed it could cause problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My guess is that if you fixed this then it would also fix the "building through walls glitch".
But the building problem is easily fixed by mappers. Think you can mark areas in maps as nonbuildable lite the airlock in Bast. The problem is of course all the allready existing maps.

Acrylic

in 1.1 they will update most originals and maybe some cutoms...

Terr

I would think given the technical issues that the best response would be for mapping fixes in certain areas. I know a skulk can bite through certain materials... I once chomped three marines to death through the underside of an elevator <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->

Changing the projection point for acid rockets would make it really annoying to be a fade if you tried to move and shoot at the same time. Even now there are a few issues where you can shoot yourself.

Maybe more invisible walls behind the 'grill' textures and such. Thicker than they look.

Ph0enix

It's an exploit. Definately falls into the 'lame' category of things to do. Fades aren't meant to be able to shoot thru things.

The reason why AFAIK is because the fades hull/bounding box is a bit squiffy and hence it projects thru small/thin entities like grates and some walls. Therefore the acid rocket appears on the other side of the entity. I've never seen a fade doing this be able to be shot by marines.

Its not a map issue <b>at all</b>, its a problem with the fade which, again, AFAIK is also known and gonna be fixed in 1.1.

However, if someone could confirm or shoot down this post it would be appreciated cos i'm not 100% about this.

Cyborgguineapig

Yeah and thanks everyone who just gave birth to 3 to 4,000 new hell llamas. Shooting through he Glass in "HERA" is technically an Exploit if you do it and on some servers you will be asked to stop killing int hat manner or be kicked FYI. Taking advantage of bugs int he HL engine for your benefit is cheating no-matter how you see it. Thank-you.

Oh and There is no fix for it as of now, probably wont be fixed ever. Basically doors and glass and stuff are made of entities and its an entity related bug.

TeoH

You can see the same behaviour with skulk bites, lerk spikes, even LMG fire. The fade instance is just more pronounced. This isnt exactly unusual behaviour, i've seen similar things in other FPS'ers.

A skulk can press himself against a thin wall, and hit other things pressed against the other side of a thin wall, i've also seen marines able to shoot a skulk in the same situation:

ie. Skulk presses his face against the hera door to fog corridoor from marine spawn. A marine on the other side of the door is often able to shoot this skulk.

A skulk clinging to the bottom of the thin walkway in vent 3-C on hera, is able to chomp structures built ontop of the walkway. And a marine is able to shoot the skulk from above the walkway. It could be that this behaviour only occurs with a certain type of blockage (ie. if you think about it, all these thin walls are done in the same way as thin railings, im not a mapper so i don't know the term. In effect it's as if it isnt really a solid polygon wall, but a 2d barricade that you can't move through.)

Doors that have no 'depth' to them, thin barriers such as the glass on hera passage to lift from spawn, and the walkway in vent 3-C. These are the sort of areas you can attack through, most noticably the fade who can fire acid rockets straight through. Most of these spots are also 'see through' in the sense that the texture has some transparent areas. Again i'm not a mapper, i'm sure these sort of barriers have a name or are in some way unique from usual polygon walls.

To give you an impression of how common this sort of thing is, during some of my first games of NS i played against a clan who, in a scrimm, built outside on hera. They thought it was pretty funny. As we were brainstorming how to kill it, the idea of being able to fire through thin walls was something i had in mind and i actually went and attempted to fire acid through the glass passageway, i wasn't incredibly surprised when it worked. 2 logical theories of why this works the way it does might be:

Attack/projectile fires from a point slightly infront of the models collision detection.
Model is actually able to penetrate slightly into a wall when pressed against it.

Or it could be something related to the type of barrier used in these scenarios. A mapper could probably explain.

EDIT:

<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Basically doors and glass and stuff are made of entities and its an entity related bug.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

h00ray

EvenFlow

I've done this on Tanith at External Satellite Relay, I was a lerk, there was a rine on the other side of the glass, the spikes appeared to be going through the glass but the 'rine just stood there looking at me as if nothing was happening, so I doubt that the spikes were actually doing any damage to him.

Rue

its a problem when u have the waste hive on tanith(sp) because when the mariens weld the vents fades can hit stuff and cant be killed. I knew you could do it in hera in vent hive but i didnt know you could do it from the glass <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

hope it can be fixed in 1.1, cause i play mariens more <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

FireStorm

<!--QuoteBegin--Kadreal<lost>+Mar 13 2003, 01:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kadreal<lost> @ Mar 13 2003, 01:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The half life engine when it creates impact objects (like rockets) that are not instant hit, it actually makes an object in front of what ever created it (marine with rocket launcher) it creates it slightly far ahead to prevent you from colliding with your own missles if your running foward and fire! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
wrong. not the engine but the DLL. Ad the dll is editable. Look at the RPG:

<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->  UTIL_MakeVectors( m_pPlayer->pev->v_angle );
 Vector vecSrc = m_pPlayer->GetGunPosition( ) + gpGlobals->v_forward * 16 + gpGlobals->v_right * 8 + gpGlobals->v_up * -8;
 
 CRpgRocket *pRocket = CRpgRocket::CreateRpgRocket( vecSrc, m_pPlayer->pev->v_angle, m_pPlayer, this );

 UTIL_MakeVectors( m_pPlayer->pev->v_angle );// RpgRocket::Create stomps on globals, so remake.
 pRocket->pev->velocity = pRocket->pev->velocity + gpGlobals->v_forward * DotProduct( m_pPlayer->pev->velocity, gpGlobals->v_forward );
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->

You can notice that the rocket is created 16 pixels in forward of the player. And... if you have the source code it means you can change it...and remove exploits.

And for the touch things: if an entity is registered as an owner of a second entity, the second entity won't touch the owner.

wlibaers

<!--QuoteBegin--Even~Flow+Mar 13 2003, 08:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Even~Flow @ Mar 13 2003, 08:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've done this on Tanith at External Satellite Relay, I was a lerk, there was a rine on the other side of the glass, the spikes appeared to be going through the glass but the 'rine just stood there looking at me as if nothing was happening, so I doubt that the spikes were actually doing any damage to him. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably because the spikes are hitscan but its tracers are projectiles, so they obey different rules.

Keyser

Yeah, I remember one time when I was on the marine team, and we were all bunched up in that litte corner of Hera where the CC is, just seeing how long we can last against fades and onos, and suddenly, a fade blinks up to the glass and starts launching bile bombs all over the place, thus wiping out our entire marine team. Needless to say we lost a few seconds after that.

Its frustrating I know, we were having so much fun <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->

boberto

one thing i have noticed, and the specific example that comes to mind is the grate walkways in sewer vestibule. if the marine team builds anything on top of these walkways, you can climb under them as a skulk and bite them without fear of being hit by a turret or the like.

Align

<!--QuoteBegin--Even~Flow+Mar 13 2003, 06:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Even~Flow @ Mar 13 2003, 06:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've done this on Tanith at External Satellite Relay, I was a lerk, there was a rine on the other side of the glass, the spikes appeared to be going through the glass but the 'rine just stood there looking at me as if nothing was happening, so I doubt that the spikes were actually doing any damage to him. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The area with the red forcefield? Yeah, thats one weird wall, because if you as a marine shoot at a wall on the other side of the field, it looks like the bullets are going through. But you can't hurt anything through it. It just looks like you can.