ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
mehehehehe twitch twitch
bgh
TWITCH
NS nearly became BGH on the release of 1.0, the rez scaler was unlocked and many admins pumped it up (thus creatting insta tech).
Its really really silly.
And you know what BGH is? its a realm where early rush dosn't exist, it is simply cut out (so no build for 10 mins THEN attack, it is simply oh look I have all my toys lets go attack now).
If you can't hold off my skulk rush, at least I am nice enugh to finish you off. Imagine if I hadn't finnished you, instead I simply killed your 2 IPs and armoury, now where would you be (bunch of Rez in the hole).
rush is a valid tactic b/c it keeps every one on their toes. I understand many people don't like rushes in some games simply b/c if the rush fails the game is over any way.
In NS if the rush succedes, yup game over lets start again. However if it fails, oh look, we still can compeate. we are just slightly behind (If skulks just camped the marine spawn making sure they couldn't expand they would be better off.
meh what ever, I don't think Flay is silly enugh to try and make rushes pointless. SO I FEAR NOT!
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--civman2+Mar 13 2003, 03:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (civman2 @ Mar 13 2003, 03:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Plus by then lerks have umbra, which means the hive will take about a thousand HMG shots to kill <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A thousand? Optimist ... it's about two thousand (6x350, to be more exact).
I saw a rush the otherday that I had never seen used before...and it SUCKED for us as aliens. It was a "mine rush". They build IPs, armory...mines...mines mines mines. Then, they ran out of their base towards the "middle hive" (we started in a corner). Dropped an armory...mines mines mines mines. We couldn't fight back because we kept blowing up! We fought them off once...they came back...more mines. The mines bought them enough time, and slowed us down enough to where they got an easy advantage on us and murdered us.
Mines are a great defence weapon, but used offencively, they simply can't be faught by aliens. Now now...wait, "the gorge can blow them up", thats hard to do...and myself as a gorge have tried many a time to blow them up, and 90% of the time they do not.
Skulks have no way to fight massive mine fields.
Personally, I think Parasite should blow them up (one at a time), but thats just me.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
make it take like 5 parasite shots, and have the mine do something so that it is obvious that it is being hit (like give off a beep for every 'site that hits)
this way it takes more then one full adren bar to kill one mine (I think you can only get off about 3 'sites before you run out a nrg) and they will still act as early warning (also all you have to do is drop them so that if they can 'site it then some one will see em.
Wow, I don't think you people are understanding me.
I have nothing against rushing in general. It's when a great game degenerates down to "rush only" in terms of what people are willing to do. What is LAME is when this is all people can find rewarding in the game, and turn it into an all or nothing situation regardless of possible choices to be made.
<!--QuoteBegin--Thansal+Mar 13 2003, 07:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Mar 13 2003, 07:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> that many mines probably cost a hefty sum
and it will not work once fades exist (seeing how as acid rkt makes em go boom realllll good)
and personaly I say 'site shouldn't make me go boom, just deactivate em (memeber if aniens make mines go boom they harm rines) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, they did cost a hefty sum. We never got fades...hard to get a 2nd hive they have two locked down with mines, then turrets, which they did.
How about 3 parasite shots? Thats a full energy bar for ONE mine...seems fair to me. It wouldn't mines useless by anymeans...since a field of mines (which SHOULD have at least 1 marine guard) would still be hard to take down, and it would just make the marines a little more cautious about where they put them and such.
Having entire rooms FULL of mines is a bit of a hassle, and its IMPOSSIBLE to fight back from without Fades...assuming you ever get them, which you probably won't.
No, mines shouldn't be blown up by parasites, that's stupid. 5 energy bars should set the marines back 8 resources?
I agree that the mine rush is a pretty good strategy, but if they got an armory that close to your hive, and could keep getting respawned people back there, what were you doing? I've never seen it pulled off so successfully that it won a game, but i've seen messhall mined up insanely before.
<!--QuoteBegin--neonfaktory+Mar 13 2003, 08:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (neonfaktory @ Mar 13 2003, 08:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wow, I don't think you people are understanding me.
I have nothing against rushing in general. It's when a great game degenerates down to "rush only" in terms of what people are willing to do. What is LAME is when this is all people can find rewarding in the game, and turn it into an all or nothing situation regardless of possible choices to be made. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody said anything about NS being a "rush only" game, including yourself in the other post. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Kazyras said it way better than my smart **** self ever could, so just re-read his post again.
No, nobody overtly *said* it was a 'rush only' game... but that's the fear. Right now, from what I can tell, a *lot* of players on a *lot* of servers are seeing *nothing* but rushes. And the rushes *work*, due to one factor or another; mostly skill imbalance and refusal to change tactics. So lots of times people won't ever get to *see* late game stuff. Let alone mid game. When they do, it's a rare occasion and they realize it's really really FUN. But then things go back to 'rush rush rush' and that's it. Part of what makes this game fun is the potential for lots of different types of games, not just rush, and not just 'no attack 'til uber-tech.' But when you see nothing but one strat over and over it becomes boring. And right now - especially with skilled players on one side or the other - rush is *the* strat that people use. Why? Because it wins, and it wins a *lot*. Sure, rushing is a valid tactic, and needs to be done throughout the game to have a chance at winning (usually at least), but lots of people are now just stuck in that 'rush rush rush' mindset because all they want is to win, and not really have a good time trying new stuff. This is especially true, I've noticed, on pub servers where good/experienced players will use their '"elite" sk1llz' to 'pwn d4 n00bz' because they can, over and over. It's just a skill difference thing. They'll just keep rushing, 'cuz it'll work and get them kills and win them games. If they went to a higher-skill level server, the rushing would work much *less*. The games would be longer, and more challenging. But lots of players just don't want that. They want quick frags, DM style. So they're not going to change... But unfortunately, this leads to lots of inexperienced or new players on the pub servers to see nothing but rush.
Basically, what lots of us silently fear is that this game becomes just like CounterStrike is right now, just with aliens instead of terrorists. There's nothing wrong with CS in *theory*; it has lots of different game modes, lots of customization and possibility for cool and interesting games, just like in NS (hell, even moreso). But what has it basically degenerated to now? Deathmatch. Nothing more, nothing less. And frankly, a good number of NS players do *NOT* want to see that happen to NS. So before flaming away on the 'rush/no rush' threads, just keep in mind that people want to see *variety* in their games, and that's where their frustration is stemming from.
I see plenty of variety in game lengths. This certainly has nothing to do with CS. The problem with CS is that the userbase is very, very varied. NS is way more selective (if you'll excuse the pun), in that you most likely have to enjoy RTSes, FPSes, and NS's exclusive hybrid of both to really get a kick out of playing. It's not just "oh, I can shoot things, huk huk", which is what a very vocal minority of the CS population has become. CS is not the big crapfest that everybody here likes to make it out to be, but that's for another time, another thread...
If you're having problems finding fun NS games, please change servers. I don't know what statistical black hole your server of choice has fallen into, but if you don't enjoy it there's no reason to stay there.
As for rushes working/not working, that's the way the cookie crumbles. If your team succumbs to one, oh well, your fault. Certianly not the NS team's fault for making it possible. If you fend off a rush, hey, you just got yourself a nice little advantage going there! If the other team quits after a failed rush, so what? I've seen this happen only once. Ever. And I think I've played a lot of NS. If people quit because they're losing on their server, they're not worth playing with. Again, move on.
Please don't try to fix something that isn't broken. Leave it be.
civman2 - no, not the same game, your clan had no res towers other than the base, and it was 8 minutes, with spending and loss of said res towers as I mentioned before. I'm very sure you weren't there. And yes giving tree and wolf pack are very good, but as I said it took three waves to do us in, that in addition to the additional spending and losses are what makes me suspect there is something afoot.
dizzy.souls - we had no O chambers before the second hive and if you'll look above you'll see my reasons why such a rush late game was impractical.
Applicator - I've done the math, as shown above, they did not have any resources to manage, how do you propose they would have pulled out that much, in so little a time, mid game, while they were constantly getting beaten back?
neonfaktory - listen to Kazyras he knows what he's talking about.
Zenn - actually I think I was comming on that game ^_^ seriously though, this one sided uber-advantage uncounterable-strategy-that-wins-90%-of-the-time is what 1.1 is about fixing (I hope), look forward to it, don't take these games too seriously until a real strategy game develops on top of this one
<!--QuoteBegin--Gibby+Mar 13 2003, 03:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gibby @ Mar 13 2003, 03:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well let's just hope such crap is anhiliated in 1.1
Rushing has always been the worst part of RTS games. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> NO, *TURTLING* has always been
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Lets see.. 8 person game, one res turret, 8 minutes? That's 100 + 8*28,4 res or just about 300 res. You only need ... eh, IP+armory+armslab+prototype lab+HMG res+jetpack research ... that's 200 res to get jetpacks and HMG. For the advanced guys, recycle the armslab for a 20 pt rebate..and you are down to needing to earn 80 res above the starting res to get jp/hmg - about 3 minutes on a single restower in an 8 player game. Sure, it's a bit risky with just one IP, no mines etc, but you will have your JP's researched by the time the aliens gets three DC's up.
There is a REASON why people say that it's just TOO easy to get jetpacks. In an 8 player game, you can get HMG/JP's off a SINGLE resource tower before the aliens have started to build the 2nd hive.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Zenn+Mar 13 2003, 07:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zenn @ Mar 13 2003, 07:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Mines are a great defence weapon, but used offencively, they simply can't be faught by aliens. Now now...wait, "the gorge can blow them up", thats hard to do...and myself as a gorge have tried many a time to blow them up, and 90% of the time they do not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Gorges that knows how to aim their spit blows up mines 90+% of times - at least, that's my ratio.
The trick is to stop aiming AT the mine .. you need to hit the mine trigger box, which is a cube a foot per side located a foot above the mine.
So, aim about a foot-n-a half ABOVE the landmine - it will blow.
1) This might be a reach, but I'm fairly sure there is no res hack yet. It would be all over the place. Also, I believe resources are a server side thing, so there is no way to "hack" them from the player side. Could be wrong though.
2) alieNation is my clan's server. -[BS]- does not have admin there. No aN or the few other admins we have would cheat using admin.
3) -[BS]- uses the hmg/jp tactic all the time. They have it practiced and are very good at it.
4) I bet you just didn't notice the res they had on the other side of the map. Because unless you killed the reses they placed over and over and that is how you knew they had none, believe me, they had every single one you didn't think to check. They're sneaky as hell about getting marines out of the base, putting up a tower and moving on to the next, all the while keeping your skulks busy elsewhere.
There is a res bug around though, when playing as aliens on ns_nothing we were crushing the marines, our 3rd hive was going up we had all the res nodes on the map except marines start when all of a sudden the marines came out their base and headed for cargo bay all equipped with HA/HMGS + welders and one GL 7 marines altogether.
Fair enough they might have saved up the res to do this but due to some good team work on the part of the aliens and the marines being useless we killed them all just past docking wing. Less than a minute later they were back all kitted out again, we killed them again they came back again. I think they did this like 4-5 times and by the way the fades started dropping they had lvl 3 weps as well, infact it was only the Onos that prevented us from losing cargo and finally win the game.
Don't get me wrong this goes down as one of the best games ever because of the intense fighting as teamwork between the fades, lerks and gorgs but there is no way in hell the marines could have researched and kitted out 7 marines in that equippment more than 5 times over on 1 res node in a 40 minute game.
v-man - yes that was the exact scenario, of course we had very few res towers, but they definitely didn't have any but one. Waves and expensive equipment, all of it.
Azrael - no, not a single res node, very sure.
matso42 - my math was a bit off, if you do indeed get 20 back from a recycled arms lab, instead of 322~342 it should be 352~372...almost 50~100 res beyond your rough estimate. I'm very sure of my equipment figures, less about how many health and ammo packs..but I would say there could be 20% margin for error on how many packs. That leaves a grand total of 346~382. Still quite conspicuous.
<!--QuoteBegin--dizzy.souls+Mar 13 2003, 07:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dizzy.souls @ Mar 13 2003, 07:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> with C&C1 some ppl (most of em were noobs) put in their multiplayer gamechannel topic as a rule : 10 MIN BUILDTIME)
usually I would just heli rush them and they would just disconnect en get no loss, I mean cmon, build time sux :p (and I woudnt want to go back to C&C1 either :p ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait a minute... In C&C1, helipads cost a LOT to build. Sure, they came with an Orca, but they still cost 1500 or so (forgot the actual number). And they built real slow. And you could only build one helipad at a time. And they had to reload after shooting a measly 5 missiles.
If you heli rushed them, wouldn't they have had the chance to get their precious 10 minute buildtimes?
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
Lets sit back for a moment and look at a few things. Here take a seat.
First lets look at the name of this game we play. Natural Selection. Lets first look at this phrase. We all know where it comes from. It comes from darwin. It's the name of the theory more commonly explained as as survival of the fittest.
Now let's look at this phrase in the context of the rushing. If your team loses to the rush, then you were not fit and thus did not survive. The marines were fit and did survive.
What needs to happen is for all of you lazy none evolving aliens to get off your behinds and become fit once again. JP HMG rush can be stoped. I'm not going to go into how because having me tell you doesn't help you, it really hinders you since it took no work for you to figure it out.
If you can't take the rush then you didn't diserve to win. It's just that simple. If you lose 10 times in a row. Then you should have looked at what you were doing a long time ago and tried to have fixed it. Don't come to us complaining about rushing or the jp/hmg. If you can't take it then it's you and your teams problem.
Learn to evolve your gameplay. You need to outwit and outmatch your opponents. You need to analyze them. Find out what makes their strategy tick. Find that weakness and exploit it. This is what we call tactics. NS is a tactics game. Calling any tactic that wins in a tactics game lame is just sad. You obviously don't understand the concept the game is based off of. If you argue that the players f4 then find a new pub. I play pubs where the players never f4. They take the win with a good heart and come back the next game to change their game play. Just find a new server and don't go ranting about how the rush isn't fair.
Yes i am aware the rush is very strong at this point in the game. As i said though, it can be countered.
Kenichi - Indeed, bringing some social Darwinism to play, very good. There is of course a flaw in your logic, it seems you're assuming that the team can work together effectively ala a clan. Which of course not every random grouping of NS players can do effectively. I've played a few games tonight that I think illustrate, I pride myself on being an above average commander, I played two games tonight:
P&Bs hosts some good servers, but because of lack of the admin_vote_kick admin mod command or something similar, it turned into a grief fest the. But thats beside the point, the comm for the first map bast was excellent, we took generators and ventilation simultaneously, secured both, and JPed their hive for the win.
Second game on the same server, eclipse, I was commanding. We took Eclipse command, secured with mines, moved onto CC, the alien put up a great effort to try to get it back, props to {MA}Ghost and the rest of the alien team for an excellent game, while it lasted. We secured CC with an immense investment of resources and time, eventually sieged them out of all hives and were about to. Unfortunately my team decided not to cooperate, they refused to leave the base without HMG and jetpacks, they would not phase not run to the hives under attack, nothing. Lesson learned? Not a thing, because the team was at fault, my tactic was technically flawless. The point here? You learn nothing if your team refuses to cooperate, work poorly together, or have a poor grasp of the game.
First game on voogru.com, I played aliens both times, both excellent examples of team work for the aliens part. Twice the marines tried to simultaneously rush processing and JP + HMG rush, they failed both times because of the unrelenting assault of skulks as well as good team work and some decent gorges. The lesson here? Nothing, I'm not going to play with those same people again, since the team was the reason we won, not some brilliant tactic, there is nothing to be from this game that will transfer to another public game.
My point is that the only viable learning experience is between two clans, or two teams of players that can work together effectively. But most likely not a pub, which I feel is where most of the experiences on this board are gleaned from.
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
edited March 2003
actually the only thing i assume is that your a team of ns players.
Social darwinism works here. You dont work together you die. It's that simple. Just because your a random team of players doesn't mean it doesn't work. Working together and not working together is all part of darwins theory in this type of situations. Being that a team that is the fittest is a team that works together. That isn't flawed at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My point is that the only viable learning experience is between two clans, or two teams of players that can work together effectively. But most likely not a pub, which I feel is where most of the experiences on this board are gleaned from. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While yes i agree completly. This still doesn't change the concepts of natural selections. It is quite possible for any pub to team come to some sort of working relationship and win. So the ns theory still works. It's amazingly flexible like that.
So your saying that the selection taking place during the game will either breed players who want to work together or will remove them from the "gene pool". I suppose that could be true, but I think there isn't enough inherent risk involved to force original thought. As with all games there are those, that can't suspend their disbelief in order to really enjoy the game, I don't think there is much hope for those kinds of players. While the rest of us who can suspend disbelief and play the game so that it matters to us, do indeed evolve as you say.
The learning curve is also quite steep, discouraging all but the most dedicated to learn and grow, as well as discouraging new strategies, since play testing involves a significant investment in time.
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
edited March 2003
This is quite true. Also, sadly yes, there are players that seem to evolve into the gameplay at a much slower pace than should ever be possible....we can only hope that someday they will see the light.
Comments
bgh
TWITCH
NS nearly became BGH on the release of 1.0, the rez scaler was unlocked and many admins pumped it up (thus creatting insta tech).
Its really really silly.
And you know what BGH is? its a realm where early rush dosn't exist, it is simply cut out (so no build for 10 mins THEN attack, it is simply oh look I have all my toys lets go attack now).
If you can't hold off my skulk rush, at least I am nice enugh to finish you off. Imagine if I hadn't finnished you, instead I simply killed your 2 IPs and armoury, now where would you be (bunch of Rez in the hole).
rush is a valid tactic b/c it keeps every one on their toes. I understand many people don't like rushes in some games simply b/c if the rush fails the game is over any way.
In NS if the rush succedes, yup game over lets start again. However if it fails, oh look, we still can compeate. we are just slightly behind (If skulks just camped the marine spawn making sure they couldn't expand they would be better off.
meh what ever, I don't think Flay is silly enugh to try and make rushes pointless. SO I FEAR NOT!
A thousand? Optimist ... it's about two thousand (6x350, to be more exact).
I saw a rush the otherday that I had never seen used before...and it SUCKED for us as aliens. It was a "mine rush". They build IPs, armory...mines...mines mines mines. Then, they ran out of their base towards the "middle hive" (we started in a corner). Dropped an armory...mines mines mines mines. We couldn't fight back because we kept blowing up! We fought them off once...they came back...more mines. The mines bought them enough time, and slowed us down enough to where they got an easy advantage on us and murdered us.
Mines are a great defence weapon, but used offencively, they simply can't be faught by aliens. Now now...wait, "the gorge can blow them up", thats hard to do...and myself as a gorge have tried many a time to blow them up, and 90% of the time they do not.
Skulks have no way to fight massive mine fields.
Personally, I think Parasite should blow them up (one at a time), but thats just me.
and it will not work once fades exist (seeing how as acid rkt makes em go boom realllll good)
and personaly I say 'site shouldn't make me go boom, just deactivate em (memeber if aniens make mines go boom they harm rines)
this way it takes more then one full adren bar to kill one mine (I think you can only get off about 3 'sites before you run out a nrg)
and they will still act as early warning (also all you have to do is drop them so that if they can 'site it then some one will see em.
I have nothing against rushing in general. It's when a great game degenerates down to "rush only" in terms of what people are willing to do. What is LAME is when this is all people can find rewarding in the game, and turn it into an all or nothing situation regardless of possible choices to be made.
and it will not work once fades exist (seeing how as acid rkt makes em go boom realllll good)
and personaly I say 'site shouldn't make me go boom, just deactivate em (memeber if aniens make mines go boom they harm rines) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, they did cost a hefty sum. We never got fades...hard to get a 2nd hive they have two locked down with mines, then turrets, which they did.
How about 3 parasite shots? Thats a full energy bar for ONE mine...seems fair to me. It wouldn't mines useless by anymeans...since a field of mines (which SHOULD have at least 1 marine guard) would still be hard to take down, and it would just make the marines a little more cautious about where they put them and such.
Having entire rooms FULL of mines is a bit of a hassle, and its IMPOSSIBLE to fight back from without Fades...assuming you ever get them, which you probably won't.
5 energy bars should set the marines back 8 resources?
I agree that the mine rush is a pretty good strategy, but if they got an armory that close to your hive, and could keep getting respawned people back there, what were you doing? I've never seen it pulled off so successfully that it won a game, but i've seen messhall mined up insanely before.
I have nothing against rushing in general. It's when a great game degenerates down to "rush only" in terms of what people are willing to do. What is LAME is when this is all people can find rewarding in the game, and turn it into an all or nothing situation regardless of possible choices to be made. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody said anything about NS being a "rush only" game, including yourself in the other post. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Kazyras said it way better than my smart **** self ever could, so just re-read his post again.
Basically, what lots of us silently fear is that this game becomes just like CounterStrike is right now, just with aliens instead of terrorists. There's nothing wrong with CS in *theory*; it has lots of different game modes, lots of customization and possibility for cool and interesting games, just like in NS (hell, even moreso). But what has it basically degenerated to now? Deathmatch. Nothing more, nothing less. And frankly, a good number of NS players do *NOT* want to see that happen to NS. So before flaming away on the 'rush/no rush' threads, just keep in mind that people want to see *variety* in their games, and that's where their frustration is stemming from.
If you're having problems finding fun NS games, please change servers. I don't know what statistical black hole your server of choice has fallen into, but if you don't enjoy it there's no reason to stay there.
As for rushes working/not working, that's the way the cookie crumbles. If your team succumbs to one, oh well, your fault. Certianly not the NS team's fault for making it possible. If you fend off a rush, hey, you just got yourself a nice little advantage going there! If the other team quits after a failed rush, so what? I've seen this happen only once. Ever. And I think I've played a lot of NS. If people quit because they're losing on their server, they're not worth playing with. Again, move on.
Please don't try to fix something that isn't broken. Leave it be.
dizzy.souls - we had no O chambers before the second hive and if you'll look above you'll see my reasons why such a rush late game was impractical.
Applicator - I've done the math, as shown above, they did not have any resources to manage, how do you propose they would have pulled out that much, in so little a time, mid game, while they were constantly getting beaten back?
neonfaktory - listen to Kazyras he knows what he's talking about.
Zenn - actually I think I was comming on that game ^_^
seriously though, this one sided uber-advantage uncounterable-strategy-that-wins-90%-of-the-time is what 1.1 is about fixing (I hope), look forward to it, don't take these games too seriously until a real strategy game develops on top of this one
Rushing has always been the worst part of RTS games. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO, *TURTLING* has always been
There is a REASON why people say that it's just TOO easy to get jetpacks. In an 8 player game, you can get HMG/JP's off a SINGLE resource tower before the aliens have started to build the 2nd hive.
Mines are a great defence weapon, but used offencively, they simply can't be faught by aliens. Now now...wait, "the gorge can blow them up", thats hard to do...and myself as a gorge have tried many a time to blow them up, and 90% of the time they do not.
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Gorges that knows how to aim their spit blows up mines 90+% of times - at least, that's my ratio.
The trick is to stop aiming AT the mine .. you need to hit the mine trigger box, which is a cube a foot per side located a foot above the mine.
So, aim about a foot-n-a half ABOVE the landmine - it will blow.
1) This might be a reach, but I'm fairly sure there is no res hack yet. It would be all over the place. Also, I believe resources are a server side thing, so there is no way to "hack" them from the player side. Could be wrong though.
2) alieNation is my clan's server. -[BS]- does not have admin there. No aN or the few other admins we have would cheat using admin.
3) -[BS]- uses the hmg/jp tactic all the time. They have it practiced and are very good at it.
4) I bet you just didn't notice the res they had on the other side of the map. Because unless you killed the reses they placed over and over and that is how you knew they had none, believe me, they had every single one you didn't think to check. They're sneaky as hell about getting marines out of the base, putting up a tower and moving on to the next, all the while keeping your skulks busy elsewhere.
~Az
Fair enough they might have saved up the res to do this but due to some good team work on the part of the aliens and the marines being useless we killed them all just past docking wing. Less than a minute later they were back all kitted out again, we killed them again they came back again. I think they did this like 4-5 times and by the way the fades started dropping they had lvl 3 weps as well, infact it was only the Onos that prevented us from losing cargo and finally win the game.
Don't get me wrong this goes down as one of the best games ever because of the intense fighting as teamwork between the fades, lerks and gorgs but there is no way in hell the marines could have researched and kitted out 7 marines in that equippment more than 5 times over on 1 res node in a 40 minute game.
Azrael - no, not a single res node, very sure.
matso42 - my math was a bit off, if you do indeed get 20 back from a recycled arms lab, instead of 322~342 it should be 352~372...almost 50~100 res beyond your rough estimate. I'm very sure of my equipment figures, less about how many health and ammo packs..but I would say there could be 20% margin for error on how many packs. That leaves a grand total of 346~382. Still quite conspicuous.
usually I would just heli rush them and they would just disconnect en get no loss, I mean cmon, build time sux :p (and I woudnt want to go back to C&C1 either :p ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait a minute... In C&C1, helipads cost a LOT to build. Sure, they came with an Orca, but they still cost 1500 or so (forgot the actual number). And they built real slow. And you could only build one helipad at a time. And they had to reload after shooting a measly 5 missiles.
If you heli rushed them, wouldn't they have had the chance to get their precious 10 minute buildtimes?
So very off topic... but nostalgic.
Here take a seat.
First lets look at the name of this game we play. Natural Selection. Lets first look at this phrase. We all know where it comes from. It comes from darwin. It's the name of the theory more commonly explained as as survival of the fittest.
Now let's look at this phrase in the context of the rushing. If your team loses to the rush, then you were not fit and thus did not survive. The marines were fit and did survive.
What needs to happen is for all of you lazy none evolving aliens to get off your behinds and become fit once again. JP HMG rush can be stoped. I'm not going to go into how because having me tell you doesn't help you, it really hinders you since it took no work for you to figure it out.
If you can't take the rush then you didn't diserve to win. It's just that simple. If you lose 10 times in a row. Then you should have looked at what you were doing a long time ago and tried to have fixed it. Don't come to us complaining about rushing or the jp/hmg. If you can't take it then it's you and your teams problem.
Learn to evolve your gameplay. You need to outwit and outmatch your opponents. You need to analyze them. Find out what makes their strategy tick. Find that weakness and exploit it. This is what we call tactics. NS is a tactics game. Calling any tactic that wins in a tactics game lame is just sad. You obviously don't understand the concept the game is based off of. If you argue that the players f4 then find a new pub. I play pubs where the players never f4. They take the win with a good heart and come back the next game to change their game play. Just find a new server and don't go ranting about how the rush isn't fair.
Yes i am aware the rush is very strong at this point in the game. As i said though, it can be countered.
Awesome P&Bs Natural Selection v1.04 (64.71.165.10:27015)
voogru.com Natural-Selection 1.04 (207.44.210.211:27015)
P&Bs hosts some good servers, but because of lack of the admin_vote_kick admin mod command or something similar, it turned into a grief fest the. But thats beside the point, the comm for the first map bast was excellent, we took generators and ventilation simultaneously, secured both, and JPed their hive for the win.
Second game on the same server, eclipse, I was commanding. We took Eclipse command, secured with mines, moved onto CC, the alien put up a great effort to try to get it back, props to {MA}Ghost and the rest of the alien team for an excellent game, while it lasted. We secured CC with an immense investment of resources and time, eventually sieged them out of all hives and were about to. Unfortunately my team decided not to cooperate, they refused to leave the base without HMG and jetpacks, they would not phase not run to the hives under attack, nothing. Lesson learned? Not a thing, because the team was at fault, my tactic was technically flawless. The point here? You learn nothing if your team refuses to cooperate, work poorly together, or have a poor grasp of the game.
First game on voogru.com, I played aliens both times, both excellent examples of team work for the aliens part. Twice the marines tried to simultaneously rush processing and JP + HMG rush, they failed both times because of the unrelenting assault of skulks as well as good team work and some decent gorges. The lesson here? Nothing, I'm not going to play with those same people again, since the team was the reason we won, not some brilliant tactic, there is nothing to be from this game that will transfer to another public game.
My point is that the only viable learning experience is between two clans, or two teams of players that can work together effectively. But most likely not a pub, which I feel is where most of the experiences on this board are gleaned from.
Social darwinism works here. You dont work together you die. It's that simple. Just because your a random team of players doesn't mean it doesn't work. Working together and not working together is all part of darwins theory in this type of situations. Being that a team that is the fittest is a team that works together. That isn't flawed at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My point is that the only viable learning experience is between two clans, or two teams of players that can work together effectively. But most likely not a pub, which I feel is where most of the experiences on this board are gleaned from.
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While yes i agree completly. This still doesn't change the concepts of natural selections. It is quite possible for any pub to team come to some sort of working relationship and win. So the ns theory still works. It's amazingly flexible like that.
1ip
1armory
1armslab
... wait until 45res Drop Proto (recycle Arms Lab)
after you get res from recycling, research jps
So in conclusion BS wasnt h4x0ring on teh your PC! and no, your megahurts have not been stoeledd!!
The learning curve is also quite steep, discouraging all but the most dedicated to learn and grow, as well as discouraging new strategies, since play testing involves a significant investment in time.