<!--QuoteBegin--wlibaers+Mar 14 2003, 05:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wlibaers @ Mar 14 2003, 05:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Moon+Mar 14 2003, 01:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ Mar 14 2003, 01:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I always find it a little ironic when aliens start yelling "kill us already" and yet they are fighting with all their strength to prevent their own end ? ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course the aliens resist as long as they're in the game. If you want them to just sit in their hive without moving, letting you walk in and shoot the hive to pieces without offering any resistance, that's mostly the same as an F4, except for the aliens being useless in the main map instead of the RR, and lasting a little longer ...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed. My point was though that by actively resisting they are making it difficult to bring about a quick end to the game - the very thing they seem to be demanding. From this point of view it seems ironic. Should aliens resist to the end ? Of course !
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...And indeed, in most big spectator sports teams play until the game is over, but I think that's mainly to prevent riots <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> In games with fewer spectators, like chess for example, stopping before checkmate isn't that uncommon. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree about the riots <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Quitting an untenable situation is not wrong, look at the chess world, when you know it's over, it's over. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see alot of chess comparisons. While I have alot of respect for that game and indeed there are similarities between it and NS I think one key distinction needs to be drawn. NS to my mind is about <b> role-playing </b> as well. Would Kharaa just suddenly give up because marines have a significant advantage ? Do you see what I'm getting at here. By f4-ing you are meta-gaming which ruins the atmosphere.
In baseball, do they keep playing after a winning run in the bottom of the ninth? No. Why? No point. It's just boring, depressing, and humiliating to the team that has lost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (Killswitch1968) Alright a few things:
"<b>very unsatisfactory</b>" It's only very unsatisfactory because you didn't get to joyously march around in your HA crushing the opposition in an act of pure self-gratification. You already know you've won. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmmm. Actually I thought it unsatisfactory because the game ends with me knowing that an alien hive still exists on my ship/base/whatever !! There is a big difference in mindset here. I think you need to rethink such a presumptuous statement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe you considerate it your little reward after successfully defending 2 hives, and now you get to play with new toys, but it's just pitifully boring for the other team. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heres a thought or two guys. I see how alot of people are complaining about how boring it is at the end and so forth. Two things:
i) The ending is what you make of it. See if you can bite someones leg off before the last bell. ii) If everyone stayed to the end in games guess what ? <b>You</b> would have the chance to have alot of fun at the end on times when your team wins ! So in the end everything balances out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Exactly. That "final" assault. The assault that will end the game in your favor anyway. So cut to the chase and let's play a new game where the outcome isn't already decided. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about we role-play and go down fighting instead ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well I think most games go beyond the 20 minute mark anyways. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I say 20 minutes I mean that to be after the point at which you deem the game is "lost". i.e. 20 minutes and you should have that final assault on your position.
<!--QuoteBegin--Immacolata+Mar 13 2003, 05:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Immacolata @ Mar 13 2003, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There need to be some kind of penalty for stalling for too long. What I cannot figure out. This should go for aliens as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The aliens already have one.
Given enough time, the marines can field an entire team of fully-upgraded HA|JP/HMG/MT troops without ever setting foot outside their spawn. Given enough time, one lone marine in a vent can build a hive-killing turret farm.
The alien team can't just ignore the marines, even toward the game end. I'm not saying this makes the marine team overpowered. I'm just saying that it encourages the aliens to try to finish the game as soon as they have the upper hand.
I'm not sure if perhaps it some sort of plugin the server uses, but when I play at Mayberry, the remaining marines only have a certain amount of time, before the game automatically ends.
At least, it seems that way. Perhaps I just missed the players F4ing.
At Mayberry there are always admins online who will start to slay marines if they take too long to kill off the last hive, making the f4 option unnecessary. The admins keep play moving, so that everyone continues to have fun, making Mayberry a damn fine server.
Moon: I'm not here to roleplay. I'm here to shoot and bite things. If you want to roleplay go buy some action figures and stop trying to make the other players act as your toys.
---------------- Dr. Awkward "I do not think, therefore I am a moustache" --J.P. Sartre
Great post Savant, once an alien team has no chance of winning, which does happen often, and the marines aren't moving to a speedy extermination, then it is a viable to F4. Like said countless times before, F4ing shouldn't be used after minor setbacks, when the outcome hasn't been decided. After a 2 hive lockdown with turret farms, the aliens have no chance of taking one of those back, even with no marines to defend it, which is why aliens F4 more often.
When the aliens get 2 hives, the marines don't generally F4 because they could keep upgrading and with a little luck take out a fade or two than push to a hive. Theres always a litte hope in securing the game.
When the aliens secure 3 hives, you know the end is near, so people don't feel the need to F4 since they know the game is going to be over soon, unless the aliens just sit around an IP slicing up anyone who appears.
There is no point in playing a game where the end has been totally decided and the end won't come soon.
You make some good points Keyser. I tend to play alien most of the time (since there are always lines at the marine door) and although I will F4 if the game has reached the point "of no return" I absoluetly don't F4 just because we have been dealt a setback.
Heck, there are many games we play to completeion, and one of the best games I played as aliens we LOST, but the gameplay was great since it was a two hive struggle.
When you look at the marine team when aliens have 3 hives, the marines can STILL drop HA/HMG and slice up the incoming fades and such. However, they won't be able to hold out in the long run. Nevertheless, the marines can still COMPETE against the upper level aliens. I've killed many a fade with my LMG.
The problem is when you have ONE HIVE aliens facing upgraded marines. You have skulks with no damage upgrades and going up against HA/HMGs and you know that you're going to get creamed repeatedly.
While a marine with level 3 armor and ammo upgrades can easily go head to head with a fade, a skulk with level 3 carapace wll have NO chance with an HA/HMG unless the marine needs to reload or was low on health already. Everything else is target practice.
Once can hope that the F4 problem will be fixed in 1.1 NOT by adding a 'resign' option, but by making one hive aliens viable.
Moon: I'm not here to roleplay. I'm here to shoot and bite things. If you want to roleplay go buy some action figures and stop trying to make the other players act as your toys.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure the NS team will be delighted that their beautiful, amazingly well-crafted/atmospheric game gets your approval because you like to "shoot and bite things". I bet you like those explosions too ... so pretty!!
And also, a question :
(I'm assuming you've been on the marine team here...hmmm )
Have you ever followed orders from a comm ? If the answer is "no" then frankly you don't deserve to be playing on a team game as far as I'm concerned. If the answer is "yes" then guess what ? You've just roleplayed, good for you, care to play with those toys as well ?
<!--QuoteBegin--Savant+Mar 14 2003, 05:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 14 2003, 05:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Once can hope that the F4 problem will be fixed in 1.1 NOT by adding a 'resign' option, but by making one hive aliens viable.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this and most of your observations completely. I think with one hive allowing a potential Onos (even an unupgraded Onos) things will be alot more interesting for all. <-- assuming my understanding of 1.1 is correct.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
at one hive, the onos will have to be a significantly weaker onos, or the game would be unbalanced. I mean, the aliens already have a much easier time controlling ground and guarded res nodes. Giving them powerful evolution when the marines have worked hard to secure two hives is just crazy.
For all those that want the atmospheric/roleplaying... *ahem Moon ahem*
How about when you watch a movie or read a good book? Say, for example, the Lord of the Rings? At the end of the movie/book, after all those battles, do you get to see the cleanup of all the dead orcs and warriors? Would it really matter for you? Would that make the book/movie better? No. Of course not.
I do agree, f4ing shouldn't be used all the time, but when the comm is sending out a constant spam of jps and ha's, that is just "cleanup". HMGs take 2 seconds to kill a skulk. When I am a marine (rare) and I see the aliens f4, that makes me JUST AS HAPPY. WE WON. THAT IS THE POINT. In fact, we were doing such a good defensive game, the aliens had to concede! But, at the same time we are obviously not doing a good offensive job, except in early game to get the two hives. But does that matter? No. WE WON.
<!--QuoteBegin--BigDXLT+Mar 15 2003, 01:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BigDXLT @ Mar 15 2003, 01:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When I am a marine (rare) and I see the aliens f4, that makes me JUST AS HAPPY. WE WON. THAT IS THE POINT. In fact, we were doing such a good defensive game, the aliens had to concede! But, at the same time we are obviously not doing a good offensive job, except in early game to get the two hives. But does that matter? No. WE WON. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I actually wish the aliens would concede more often when they're done. Waiting around for tech, doing little welder errands, it's quite boring for marines too I think.
But that is the point. It's: "I want the warm fuzzy feeling that the hive is dead vs. making aliens sit around and get obliterated.
While the fuzzy feeling is nice, but I and others don't need it. More people would be made content by F4ing.
Hello i'm new. anywayz i think the game should have a certain time limit like if the marines don't manage to beat the Kharaa in like.. hmm... an hour or so they lose. THis will make the game much more fastpaced!! And da marines won't be camping in spawn making turret farms and take their time... they'll attack straight away coz they don't wanna waste any time.
<!--QuoteBegin--BigDXLT+Mar 15 2003, 06:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BigDXLT @ Mar 15 2003, 06:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For all those that want the atmospheric/roleplaying... *ahem Moon ahem*
How about when you watch a movie or read a good book? Say, for example, the Lord of the Rings? At the end of the movie/book, after all those battles, do you get to see the cleanup of all the dead orcs and warriors? Would it really matter for you? Would that make the book/movie better? No. Of course not.
I do agree, f4ing shouldn't be used all the time... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I appreciate you not resorting to insults or any condescending remarks I'm not sure I understand fully where you are coming from here. I don't equate cleanup of battlefield dead with finishing off live combatants though (no matter how trivial an exercise this may seem to be given superior weapons etc.) And also, in movies like LOTR, there is an ultimate goal that is to be completed i.e. the destruction of the ring. How would you feel if all the bad guys suddenly "f4-ed" out of the world before the ring was destroyed and you never got to see the ending ? Was the ring really destroyed ?...or maybe... see what I mean ?
I'm saying that the act of killing millions of skulks, while challenging and fun (at times) , is not my ultimate goal as a marine. <b> Hive destruction </b> is the ultimate goal and therefore I feel a little cheated sometimes when the other team does an early f4 escape. <--- This this the essence of my point of view I guess.
I think for the most part we would probably agree about when the use of f4 is warranted though. Please everyone: do not misunderstand me <b> If the other team is being lame (deliberately dragging things out) and spawn camping without killing the hive and various other selfish tactics then f4 is completely justified.</b> Hell, I don't like being "target-practice" any more than you guys. I do try and give marines the opportunity to kill all the hives though, because it is the honorable and sporting thing to do in my eyes (I'm not trying to force anyone to play like this, merely a point of view here).
I've played alot of club tennis in my life. And whether I was winning or losing (badly !! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ) barring injury or weather, we'd finish the game properly. If the opponent is immature and disrespectful (mocking you and so forth) then this reflects badly on him/her alone. An honorable foe will not resort to such nonsense because they appreciate the fact that without an opponent there would be no game at all. Heres another point I''ll try and make: losing is not something to get all worked up about, without you in the game there would have been no game in the first place and so yours has been a valuable contribution regardless.
As for role-playing: When you enter the game you are role-playing whether you are aware of it or not. The reason is because you are represented by a game-character. Whether you act in a "realistic" manner for that character is of course completely up to you. I'm not trying to condemn anyone to the fiery pits because they don't behave in a way that I would regard as consistent with the game world. If you're a player that plays only for the guns & glory then thats fine, but be aware that not everyone plays it that way.
In summary: People wanted to know why I disliked the use of f4. It is because of role-playing (f4 is a meta-game concept i.e. aliens in that world wouldn't really be able to just magically vanish) and basic sportsmanship. Should f4 be used sometimes (the other team is being lame !!) ? The answer is: yes !. Role-playing: I'm not trying to control anybody. I have no wish to be a puppet-master. Just be aware that not everyone sees the game in terms of the next kill.
You'd probably be happier if f4-ing resulted in an end-game cinematic that showed you blowing up the hive instead of just suddenly returning to the ready room - correct?
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin--Ahnteis+Mar 15 2003, 01:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Mar 15 2003, 01:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You'd probably be happier if f4-ing resulted in an end-game cinematic that showed you blowing up the hive instead of just suddenly returning to the ready room - correct? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Apparently.
The one thing NS does not have is a draw. If the marines only have say 30 minutes to capture the last hive after they have a TF in the two other hives, then the aliens could play for a draw and endure all those hmg kills on skulks <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You'd probably be happier if f4-ing resulted in an end-game cinematic that showed you blowing up the hive instead of just suddenly returning to the ready room - correct? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that would be the BEST solution to Moons problem. I know the original plan back in the day, was for start of game cutscenes, so I could see end game cutscenes working too. Too bad that was never implemented.
The thing is though, at heart, there is nothing wrong with f4ing out. It's annoying, but stopping it will only mean people will leave the server instead. Which means that you will be playing against fewer players. What the aliens really need is a last resort kicker. Xenocide I think would be a great one hive <i>upgrade</i>. It would give some satisfaction that your death might just <i>hurt them!</i>
Going back to my point about the LOTR, sure, the hive may be compared to the Ring. But the difference again, is that the only enemies in the movie/books are strong ones that could easily defeat you to the very end. Imagine if the orcs all of a sudden at the end were going up against Hobbits with Gandalfs power, and a troll's strength? Wouldn't make much of a story then would it? I mean, so what? They are accomplishing their goal and who is to slow them, much less stop them? Then they decide they aren't powerful enough so they go get some more abilities, practice kung-foo or something. Likewise a good game is a strong battle to the end.
If I were losing 10-1 at drop-in hockey, I would rather just say, okay, that's enough. Good game. Let's reorganize the teams and start again. A couple of short games is better than dragging out one long bad game, because it just slowly gets more and more frustrating when you can't do anything. If I were losing 4-3, going into the third, I'd be fighting to the end. There is context here. Even losing 5-2 is worth fighting back for. You point about tennis would be more valid in a one on one or two on two game, but if you get more than 5 people per team it becomes a different story.
Another thing to remember, is we've seen it happen so many times (I've basically been alien since 1.0) that watching it again and again has no meaning.
I do understand your point though. The teams could use a good anthem or something that should start playing in the readyroom or some cinematic. Maybe a banner unrolls in the rr or something like that. Something along Ahnteis' idea. There is end game music but it is very subtle and too much alike. Hmm... somebody ought to stick this in the suggestions and ideas forum.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ahnteis+Mar 15 2003, 01:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Mar 15 2003, 01:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You'd probably be happier if f4-ing resulted in an end-game cinematic that showed you blowing up the hive instead of just suddenly returning to the ready room - correct? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That depends... would it have the "mean guns" soundtrack blasting in the background and Ice-T flying upside down spinning wildly with two hmgs blazing ? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Even with Ice-T in there I think it would get a little old rather quickly. While I think the idea has merit, I'd have to say no. I think the NS-team should use their time more productively.
Speaking of which...I just had an idea for a new game play mode which I'll add to the suggestions forum....check it out !!
<!--QuoteBegin--BigDXLT+Mar 15 2003, 05:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BigDXLT @ Mar 15 2003, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You'd probably be happier if f4-ing resulted in an end-game cinematic that showed you blowing up the hive instead of just suddenly returning to the ready room - correct? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that would be the BEST solution to Moons problem. I know the original plan back in the day, was for start of game cutscenes, so I could see end game cutscenes working too. Too bad that was never implemented. ..... I do understand your point though. The teams could use a good anthem or something that should start playing in the readyroom or some cinematic. Maybe a banner unrolls in the rr or something like that. Something along Ahnteis' idea. There is end game music but it is very subtle and too much alike. Hmm... somebody ought to stick this in the suggestions and ideas forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hi again. I'm glad we can discuss this with maturity.
I think I understand your point too. I mean I certainly wouldn't want to be stuck in a game that drags and drags and drags with one side having little chance of recovery. I think the trick is coming up with a fair solution that gives the team with the upper-hand a time-limit to accomplish the final result. I'm not sure if this can be implemented in a reasonable way or not, but it would certainly discourage time-wasting one would hope.
The idea of cinematics is not bad at all... I think the problem is that they are static though, which means that after a while people would probably just prefer to skip past them. The idea of other in-game atmospheric elements sounds good... like anthems... maybe more voices... maybe different uniforms depending on what the player has accomplished .... or maybe having a skill system introduced for marines too (maybe a tech guy has a bonus to weld things and has a slightly different uniform... or a marksman has a slight bonus to accuracy... just an example and some ideas) ...I dunno, stuff like that sounds like it would be a nice touch.
Heres an idea, have multiple end game cinematics. One for each hive, and several "Marine Loss" cinematics per map. Because it might inflate the NS d/l, I'd propose making it an optional download with it being able to be toggled on/off. Choice and variety are good things you know...
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Like I said. Give the aliens a vote of giving the marines lots or infinite res. The marines then can happily get their tech and finish off the aliens quickly!
Yeah, the end game cinematic, me thinks wouldn't work well at all. But a simple thing like a flying banner above the marine entrance, toggled by "team x" winning, could help. I played marines a bunch tonight, and I do see your point. Again, it doesn't bother me, but the game just goes "poof!" And you sit in the readyroom going "huh?" I really ought to suggest they put more emphasis into the endgame sound.
In DOD, for example, you can instantly recognize who won the game by the music played. The current NS sound fails to really distinguish itself from the lose sound. Although, that in itself is not an easy task that they can just "do". Maybe get the voice on to say something about "Good work marines. The alien threat has been pacified." or something to that effect. Okay, that's it. I'm posting this in suggestions and ideas! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Of course the aliens resist as long as they're in the game. If you want them to just sit in their hive without moving, letting you walk in and shoot the hive to pieces without offering any resistance, that's mostly the same as an F4, except for the aliens being useless in the main map instead of the RR, and lasting a little longer ...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed. My point was though that by actively resisting they are making it difficult to bring about a quick end to the game - the very thing they seem to be demanding. From this point of view it seems ironic. Should aliens resist to the end ? Of course !
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...And indeed, in most big spectator sports teams play until the game is over, but I think that's mainly to prevent riots <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
In games with fewer spectators, like chess for example, stopping before checkmate isn't that uncommon.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree about the riots <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Quitting an untenable situation is not wrong, look at the chess world, when you know it's over, it's over. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see alot of chess comparisons. While I have alot of respect for that game and indeed there are similarities between it and NS I think one key distinction needs to be drawn. NS to my mind is about <b> role-playing </b> as well. Would Kharaa just suddenly give up because marines have a significant advantage ? Do you see what I'm getting at here. By f4-ing you are meta-gaming which ruins the atmosphere.
(Killswitch1968)
Alright a few things:
"<b>very unsatisfactory</b>" It's only very unsatisfactory because you didn't get to joyously march around in your HA crushing the opposition in an act of pure self-gratification. You already know you've won.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmmm. Actually I thought it unsatisfactory because the game ends with me knowing that an alien hive still exists on my ship/base/whatever !! There is a big difference in mindset here. I think you need to rethink such a presumptuous statement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Maybe you considerate it your little reward after successfully defending 2 hives, and now you get to play with new toys, but it's just pitifully boring for the other team.
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Heres a thought or two guys. I see how alot of people are complaining about how boring it is at the end and so forth. Two things:
i) The ending is what you make of it. See if you can bite someones leg off before the last bell.
ii) If everyone stayed to the end in games guess what ? <b>You</b> would have the chance to have alot of fun at the end on times when your team wins ! So in the end everything balances out.
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Exactly. That "final" assault. The assault that will end the game in your favor anyway. So cut to the chase and let's play a new game where the outcome isn't already decided.
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How about we role-play and go down fighting instead ?
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Well I think most games go beyond the 20 minute mark anyways.
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When I say 20 minutes I mean that to be after the point at which you deem the game is "lost". i.e. 20 minutes and you should have that final assault on your position.
The aliens already have one.
Given enough time, the marines can field an entire team of fully-upgraded HA|JP/HMG/MT troops without ever setting foot outside their spawn. Given enough time, one lone marine in a vent can build a hive-killing turret farm.
The alien team can't just ignore the marines, even toward the game end. I'm not saying this makes the marine team overpowered. I'm just saying that it encourages the aliens to try to finish the game as soon as they have the upper hand.
At least, it seems that way. Perhaps I just missed the players F4ing.
At Mayberry there are always admins online who will start to slay marines if they take too long to kill off the last hive, making the f4 option unnecessary. The admins keep play moving, so that everyone continues to have fun, making Mayberry a damn fine server.
Moon: I'm not here to roleplay. I'm here to shoot and bite things. If you want to roleplay go buy some action figures and stop trying to make the other players act as your toys.
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Dr. Awkward
"I do not think, therefore I am a moustache"
--J.P. Sartre
When the aliens get 2 hives, the marines don't generally F4 because they could keep upgrading and with a little luck take out a fade or two than push to a hive. Theres always a litte hope in securing the game.
When the aliens secure 3 hives, you know the end is near, so people don't feel the need to F4 since they know the game is going to be over soon, unless the aliens just sit around an IP slicing up anyone who appears.
There is no point in playing a game where the end has been totally decided and the end won't come soon.
Heck, there are many games we play to completeion, and one of the best games I played as aliens we LOST, but the gameplay was great since it was a two hive struggle.
When you look at the marine team when aliens have 3 hives, the marines can STILL drop HA/HMG and slice up the incoming fades and such. However, they won't be able to hold out in the long run. Nevertheless, the marines can still COMPETE against the upper level aliens. I've killed many a fade with my LMG.
The problem is when you have ONE HIVE aliens facing upgraded marines. You have skulks with no damage upgrades and going up against HA/HMGs and you know that you're going to get creamed repeatedly.
While a marine with level 3 armor and ammo upgrades can easily go head to head with a fade, a skulk with level 3 carapace wll have NO chance with an HA/HMG unless the marine needs to reload or was low on health already. Everything else is target practice.
Once can hope that the F4 problem will be fixed in 1.1 NOT by adding a 'resign' option, but by making one hive aliens viable.
Regards,
Savant
Moon: I'm not here to roleplay. I'm here to shoot and bite things. If you want to roleplay go buy some action figures and stop trying to make the other players act as your toys.
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I'm sure the NS team will be delighted that their beautiful, amazingly well-crafted/atmospheric game gets your approval because you like to "shoot and bite things". I bet you like those explosions too ... so pretty!!
And also, a question :
(I'm assuming you've been on the marine team here...hmmm )
Have you ever followed orders from a comm ? If the answer is "no" then frankly you don't deserve to be playing on a team game as far as I'm concerned. If the answer is "yes" then guess what ? You've just roleplayed, good for you, care to play with those toys as well ?
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I agree with this and most of your observations completely. I think with one hive allowing a potential Onos (even an unupgraded Onos) things will be alot more interesting for all. <-- assuming my understanding of 1.1 is correct.
How about when you watch a movie or read a good book? Say, for example, the Lord of the Rings? At the end of the movie/book, after all those battles, do you get to see the cleanup of all the dead orcs and warriors? Would it really matter for you? Would that make the book/movie better? No. Of course not.
I do agree, f4ing shouldn't be used all the time, but when the comm is sending out a constant spam of jps and ha's, that is just "cleanup". HMGs take 2 seconds to kill a skulk. When I am a marine (rare) and I see the aliens f4, that makes me JUST AS HAPPY. WE WON. THAT IS THE POINT. In fact, we were doing such a good defensive game, the aliens had to concede! But, at the same time we are obviously not doing a good offensive job, except in early game to get the two hives. But does that matter? No. WE WON.
I actually wish the aliens would concede more often when they're done. Waiting around for tech, doing little welder errands, it's quite boring for marines too I think.
But that is the point. It's: "I want the warm fuzzy feeling that the hive is dead vs. making aliens sit around and get obliterated.
While the fuzzy feeling is nice, but I and others don't need it. More people would be made content by F4ing.
How about when you watch a movie or read a good book? Say, for example, the Lord of the Rings? At the end of the movie/book, after all those battles, do you get to see the cleanup of all the dead orcs and warriors? Would it really matter for you? Would that make the book/movie better? No. Of course not.
I do agree, f4ing shouldn't be used all the time... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I appreciate you not resorting to insults or any condescending remarks I'm not sure I understand fully where you are coming from here. I don't equate cleanup of battlefield dead with finishing off live combatants though (no matter how trivial an exercise this may seem to be given superior weapons etc.) And also, in movies like LOTR, there is an ultimate goal that is to be completed i.e. the destruction of the ring. How would you feel if all the bad guys suddenly "f4-ed" out of the world before the ring was destroyed and you never got to see the ending ? Was the ring really destroyed ?...or maybe... see what I mean ?
I'm saying that the act of killing millions of skulks, while challenging and fun (at times) , is not my ultimate goal as a marine. <b> Hive destruction </b> is the ultimate goal and therefore I feel a little cheated sometimes when the other team does an early f4 escape. <--- This this the essence of my point of view I guess.
I think for the most part we would probably agree about when the use of f4 is warranted though. Please everyone: do not misunderstand me <b> If the other team is being lame (deliberately dragging things out) and spawn camping without killing the hive and various other selfish tactics then f4 is completely justified.</b> Hell, I don't like being "target-practice" any more than you guys. I do try and give marines the opportunity to kill all the hives though, because it is the honorable and sporting thing to do in my eyes (I'm not trying to force anyone to play like this, merely a point of view here).
I've played alot of club tennis in my life. And whether I was winning or losing (badly !! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ) barring injury or weather, we'd finish the game properly. If the opponent is immature and disrespectful (mocking you and so forth) then this reflects badly on him/her alone. An honorable foe will not resort to such nonsense because they appreciate the fact that without an opponent there would be no game at all. Heres another point I''ll try and make: losing is not something to get all worked up about, without you in the game there would have been no game in the first place and so yours has been a valuable contribution regardless.
As for role-playing: When you enter the game you are role-playing whether you are aware of it or not. The reason is because you are represented by a game-character. Whether you act in a "realistic" manner for that character is of course completely up to you. I'm not trying to condemn anyone to the fiery pits because they don't behave in a way that I would regard as consistent with the game world. If you're a player that plays only for the guns & glory then thats fine, but be aware that not everyone plays it that way.
In summary: People wanted to know why I disliked the use of f4. It is because of role-playing (f4 is a meta-game concept i.e. aliens in that world wouldn't really be able to just magically vanish) and basic sportsmanship. Should f4 be used sometimes (the other team is being lame !!) ? The answer is: yes !. Role-playing: I'm not trying to control anybody. I have no wish to be a puppet-master. Just be aware that not everyone sees the game in terms of the next kill.
Apparently.
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I think that would be the BEST solution to Moons problem.
I know the original plan back in the day, was for start of game cutscenes, so I could see end game cutscenes working too. Too bad that was never implemented.
The thing is though, at heart, there is nothing wrong with f4ing out. It's annoying, but stopping it will only mean people will leave the server instead. Which means that you will be playing against fewer players. What the aliens really need is a last resort kicker. Xenocide I think would be a great one hive <i>upgrade</i>. It would give some satisfaction that your death might just <i>hurt them!</i>
Going back to my point about the LOTR, sure, the hive may be compared to the Ring. But the difference again, is that the only enemies in the movie/books are strong ones that could easily defeat you to the very end. Imagine if the orcs all of a sudden at the end were going up against Hobbits with Gandalfs power, and a troll's strength? Wouldn't make much of a story then would it? I mean, so what? They are accomplishing their goal and who is to slow them, much less stop them? Then they decide they aren't powerful enough so they go get some more abilities, practice kung-foo or something. Likewise a good game is a strong battle to the end.
If I were losing 10-1 at drop-in hockey, I would rather just say, okay, that's enough. Good game. Let's reorganize the teams and start again. A couple of short games is better than dragging out one long bad game, because it just slowly gets more and more frustrating when you can't do anything. If I were losing 4-3, going into the third, I'd be fighting to the end. There is context here. Even losing 5-2 is worth fighting back for. You point about tennis would be more valid in a one on one or two on two game, but if you get more than 5 people per team it becomes a different story.
Another thing to remember, is we've seen it happen so many times (I've basically been alien since 1.0) that watching it again and again has no meaning.
I do understand your point though. The teams could use a good anthem or something that should start playing in the readyroom or some cinematic. Maybe a banner unrolls in the rr or something like that. Something along Ahnteis' idea. There is end game music but it is very subtle and too much alike. Hmm... somebody ought to stick this in the suggestions and ideas forum.
That depends... would it have the "mean guns" soundtrack blasting in the background and Ice-T flying upside down spinning wildly with two hmgs blazing ? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Even with Ice-T in there I think it would get a little old rather quickly. While I think the idea has merit, I'd have to say no. I think the NS-team should use their time more productively.
Speaking of which...I just had an idea for a new game play mode which I'll add to the suggestions forum....check it out !!
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I think that would be the BEST solution to Moons problem.
I know the original plan back in the day, was for start of game cutscenes, so I could see end game cutscenes working too. Too bad that was never implemented.
.....
I do understand your point though. The teams could use a good anthem or something that should start playing in the readyroom or some cinematic. Maybe a banner unrolls in the rr or something like that. Something along Ahnteis' idea. There is end game music but it is very subtle and too much alike. Hmm... somebody ought to stick this in the suggestions and ideas forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi again. I'm glad we can discuss this with maturity.
I think I understand your point too. I mean I certainly wouldn't want to be stuck in a game that drags and drags and drags with one side having little chance of recovery. I think the trick is coming up with a fair solution that gives the team with the upper-hand a time-limit to accomplish the final result. I'm not sure if this can be implemented in a reasonable way or not, but it would certainly discourage time-wasting one would hope.
The idea of cinematics is not bad at all... I think the problem is that they are static though, which means that after a while people would probably just prefer to skip past them. The idea of other in-game atmospheric elements sounds good... like anthems... maybe more voices... maybe different uniforms depending on what the player has accomplished .... or maybe having a skill system introduced for marines too (maybe a tech guy has a bonus to weld things and has a slightly different uniform... or a marksman has a slight bonus to accuracy... just an example and some ideas) ...I dunno, stuff like that sounds like it would be a nice touch.
In DOD, for example, you can instantly recognize who won the game by the music played. The current NS sound fails to really distinguish itself from the lose sound. Although, that in itself is not an easy task that they can just "do". Maybe get the voice on to say something about "Good work marines. The alien threat has been pacified." or something to that effect. Okay, that's it. I'm posting this in suggestions and ideas! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->