Are Leftists Being True To Their Values?
Flayra
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Violence must be used sometimes</div> An amazing article on Salon. I've been torn about this whole war, and now I feel much clearer on it. It's a long read, but brilliant.
<a href='http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2003/03/19/left/index.html' target='_blank'>http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2003/...left/index.html</a>
<a href='http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2003/03/19/left/index.html' target='_blank'>http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2003/...left/index.html</a>
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I think what that article is starting to uncover (expose?) is that the anti-war movement is being twisted by activists who have been twitching in their VW vans just waiting for the opportunity to roll down a window and flip off the White House. I don't know. As I said, I'm viewing this from the other end but I do believe it's always important to step back and take a look at what it is we're trying to accomplish.
I'm wondering how much difference there is between the two?
There have been plenty of reports regarding the quality of life in Iraq. I'd hate to think that people are disregarding that information in order to push an agenda.
<a href='http://www.nwc.navy.mil/newrulesets/ThePentagonsNewMap.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.nwc.navy.mil/newrulesets/ThePen...agonsNewMap.htm</a>
i think this article explains the Core vs Gap theory i was trying to explain.
Some good will come from it but whether the good out weighs the bad is some thing I am not to sure about.
But any way in the end you going to have to trust whoever is in power to make the right judgement
<a href='http://www.nwc.navy.mil/newrulesets/ThePentagonsNewMap.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.nwc.navy.mil/newrulesets/ThePen...agonsNewMap.htm</a>
i think this article explains the Core vs Gap theory i was trying to explain.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah ignoring the rest of the worlds opinion, fabricating evidence, invading a country with no clear provacation, using a "Shock and Awe" bombing campaign against major population centers, destabilizing the region, installing a puppet government and killing thousands in the process is <i>sooooo gonna improve our international standing</i>
This is a little off topic but...
Yeah thats why we have been in the UN trying to pass resolutions for the past month because we are ignoring the rest of the world, and why 30 countries are supporting us.
Where is your evidence on our fabricating evidence?
Scarying people with airbombs is so bad compared to raping thier children infront of them.
Destabalizing the region? Wouldnt there have to be stablity in the middle east to begin with?
I would take any puppet goverment over somebody that treats me like ammunition any day.
We invest in laser and GPS guided weapons for a reason so to maximis the cost of lives i guess. We are sending lawyers acomidating troops because a soldier might need some legal advise I guess.
Afghanastan people sure hate us. They hate being able to have a normal life.
Nobody else has liked us too much anyway.
What do you lube your rectum with to pull those facts out?
-45 Nations support us. If not the majority, but a good number of nations support us.
-Invading Iraq is self defence and was provoked by Iraq's non compliance.
-Shock and Awe is against the grunts, not civilians. Its designed to convince them not to fight, which is good for everyone.
-Destablizing the region? Yeah, can't distrub that BASTION of tranquality of the Middle East.
-Puppet Government. HAHA! We may install Pro-US governments, but certainly not puppet governments. If we controlled Afghanistan, why would they come and ask for more money? You silly little Liberal.
-Killing Thousands. Right. Nice to know you have the facts before they happen.
Oh, and Radical Muslims don't like American Values. See my post on Anti-Americanism.
i think this will cause the democrats to loose badly in upcomming elections. because about 60-70% of the US support the war with Iraq and the democrats themsleves are divided about it.
Yeah thats why we have been in the UN trying to pass resolutions for the past month because we are ignoring the rest of the world, and why 30 countries are supporting us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that is a prime example of us ignoring them. We're proceeding to war even though most of the world is against it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Where is your evidence on our fabricating evidence?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59403-2003Mar7.html' target='_blank'>UN says some US evidence against Iraq may be fake</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scarying people with airbombs is so bad compared to raping thier children infront of them.[<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't a scare tactic, this is a firing over 800 missles and thousands of bombs within 2 days. When you do that kinda **** to a city you're going to kill thousands of civilians.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Destabalizing the region? Wouldnt there have to be stablity in the middle east to begin with?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I suppose that adding more instability is a good thing?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would take any puppet goverment over somebody that treats me like ammunition any day.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that puppet governments we've installed in the past tend to be just as bad as the one we replaced.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We invest in laser and GPS guided weapons for a reason so to maximis the cost of lives i guess. We are sending lawyers acomidating troops because a soldier might need some legal advise I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We did it to improve their effectiveness, plain and simple and even with all the new advance the bombs are maybe 10% more accurate than they were in WW2. Also I didn't hear anything about lawyers, mind supplying a link?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Afghanastan people sure hate us. They hate being able to have a normal life.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes they do. If you would actually take a look at Afghanistan recently you might notice that outside Kabul the situation is the same as pre-taliban Afghanistan. Warlords rule little domains and fight with each other for control. Despite the fact that it's rapid backsliding the US hasn't put ONE SINGLE DOLLAR into the new budget for helping the rebuilding of afghanistan.
Yeah thats why we have been in the UN trying to pass resolutions for the past month because we are ignoring the rest of the world, and why 30 countries are supporting us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that is a prime example of us ignoring them. We're proceeding to war even though most of the world is against it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Where is your evidence on our fabricating evidence?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59403-2003Mar7.html' target='_blank'>UN says some US evidence against Iraq may be fake</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scarying people with airbombs is so bad compared to raping thier children infront of them.[<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't a scare tactic, this is a firing over 800 missles and thousands of bombs within 2 days. When you do that kinda **** to a city you're going to kill thousands of civilians.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Destabalizing the region? Wouldnt there have to be stablity in the middle east to begin with?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I suppose that adding more instability is a good thing?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would take any puppet goverment over somebody that treats me like ammunition any day.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that puppet governments we've installed in the past tend to be just as bad as the one we replaced.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We invest in laser and GPS guided weapons for a reason so to maximis the cost of lives i guess. We are sending lawyers acomidating troops because a soldier might need some legal advise I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We did it to improve their effectiveness, plain and simple and even with all the new advance the bombs are maybe 10% more accurate than they were in WW2. Also I didn't hear anything about lawyers, mind supplying a link?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Afghanastan people sure hate us. They hate being able to have a normal life.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes they do. If you would actually take a look at Afghanistan recently you might notice that outside Kabul the situation is the same as pre-taliban Afghanistan. Warlords rule little domains and fight with each other for control. Despite the fact that it's rapid backsliding the US hasn't put ONE SINGLE DOLLAR into the new budget for helping the rebuilding of afghanistan. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*clap*
Well-played.
FYI, not most countries support you. Just most country leaders, and they aren't exactly very popular right now.
Actually I think Bush is the only leader with such a surprising popular rating among them.
Saying someone is a hypocrite for not supporting war is just wrong here.
So I guess every single Iraqi should support Hussein from your first post as his duty to the nation.
There are iraqi that don't support Hussein, and there are Americans that don't support Bush. You can't seriously be saying they HAVE to.
And I would say that the left is still keeping to its values but the leadership is not. While you still see protests, against say african machete massacres, the leadership in the democratic party has been trying to be more and more centrist which is driving away its core supporters. Hopefully they'll un-jellify their spines at somepoint soon.
"Having this war rids us of an "evil-doer"' - Seems like good.
"We're protesting against this war because this is a war fought on <b>assumptions</b>, and <b>lives are being lost because of these assumptions</b>, not solid evidence. Future consequences for this precedent, if it is to be used as a precedent (which it will) will damn well be ugly. No war!" - This too can be seen as good.
But is this advocating <b>justice</b> in either case? In my view of most people on either side, Hell No.
Pro-war Side:
Saddam clearly stands out as reeking with evil because of media attention, but we know damn well that there are leaders just like him around in this world. "Justice" would be to eliminate all these punks. Yet in fact, don't we have economic trades with these countries? Shouldn't the government of China be looked upon as "evil" for its treatment to its people, as well as being a threat to Taiwan? Look at your clothes and tell me where its made from. I mean, hell, if you're concerned with <b>INTERNATIONAL</b> threats, what about North Korea? With the US government mentality, I expect US to soon publicly announce their "assumptions" of how dangerous North Korea can be (which are much more well-founded than to ones for Iraq), or they probably want to deal with "reforming" one country at a time, so they're keeping quiet until they're through with Iraq. But as of now, I can only assume US only wants to deal with Saddam, and no other cruel tyrant. Thus...
<b>This is not justice.</b>
Anti-war Side:
As already outlined with the first URL post, the arguement that "lives will be lost with this war, yet the US government still wants war, so that IT must be evil" is also hypocritical. Where were these people when Saddam went on his many killing sprees?
"Damn, hate to have him as a leader. But all is well in my home country..."
I know that no one who's against this war is saying that Saddam doesn't deserve to be hit with several anvils, but why all the Nazi depictions of Bush when that moustache would look better on Saddam? You peace advocates had several years to bring up a non-violent solution too, you know? And there was a peaceful attempt used for several years, (that would be several years for disarmament, which failed). And Saddam DID in fact toy with UN weapons inspectors in the past; I admit that I'm guilty of letting that fact slip my mind too in being initially all anti-war. And with the cowboy attitide so well attributed with the US government, I'm surprised they still employed some resemblance of patience. But the fact is, a lot of you didn't care about those lives, so why the sudden change now?
<b>This is not justice</b>
On a off-topic note though, I can't help but to think about past civilzations: the majority of them had a history of not being democratic, nor did they maintain peaceful relations with other nations. I think it's safe to assume that we could brand many leaders back then as "cruel" Our ancestors were "savages" and "brutes" compared to what me and you are today. However, we are privileged to live in a first world country; those living in the Middle East are not. They are living in what we call, developing nations. And can we not also say that ancient civilizations were develolping as well? The nation we live in is already built up, we are free to exercise our human rights, but what about in those developing coutries; wouldn't they survive just as well with our principles?
I've just watched half of <a href='http://us.imdb.com/Title?0047478' target='_blank'>Seven Samurai</a>, and there was a scene in which a farmer wanted to go stray from the needs of his entire village by seperating with his neighbours to defend their houses, (which were unfortunately one of the few placed beyond a bridge). Hey he's not hurting anyone, he's just exercising his individual right to protect his house from bandits. BUT at the cost of draining the village of much needed manpower to defend the core of the village. The leader of the samurai did not tolerate this for a second and scared them back in line. Why in the hell would you sacrifice three houses for the sake of twenty, when in the end, you put ALL houses at risk? Individual rights just can't exist when the situation isn't rosy. You have to do what's best for the society.
- I apologize in advance for any "but that's like comparing apples to oranges" comparisons, and any incoherence found within this article. I am but a mere youth...
/sarcasm
But Miez has a whole other thread about how he loves and defends Slobadan Milosevic, so I hardly think you're qualified to weigh in here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->METHODS OF TORTURE
Torture victims in Iraq have been blindfolded, stripped of their clothes and suspended from their wrists for long hours. Electric shocks have been used on various parts of their bodies, including the genitals, ears, the tongue and fingers. Victims have described to Amnesty International how they have been beaten with canes, whips, hosepipe or metal rods and how they have been suspended for hours from either a rotating fan in the ceiling or from a horizontal pole often in contorted positions as electric shocks were applied repeatedly on their bodies. Some victims had been forced to watch others, including their own relatives or family members, being tortured in front of them.
Other methods of physical torture described by former victims include the use of Falaqa (beating on the soles of the feet), extinguishing of cigarettes on various parts of the body, extraction of finger nails and toenails and piercing of the hands with an electric drill. Some have been sexually abused and others have had objects, including broken bottles, forced into their anus. In addition to physical torture, detainees have been threatened with rape and subjected to mock execution. They have been placed in cells where they could hear the screams of others being tortured and have been deprived of sleep. Some have stayed in solitary confinement for long periods of time. Detainees have also been threatened with bringing in a female relative, especially the wife or the mother, and raping her in front of the detainee. Some of these threats have been carried out.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that doesn't move you, nothing will.
/me points to <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=26720' target='_blank'>this thread</a> for posts discussing the pros/cons of the war.
/me points to <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=26139' target='_blank'>this thread</a> to continue the anti-anything-the-U.S.-has-to-do-in-the-world discussion.
This is a discussion about wether or not the value set (moral or otherwise) of the Left has been neglected (though Flayra could define its purpose better than I).
It's true that we empowered Saddam with a lot of money and weapons, and have helped him kill and oppress many people. The left can't get by that, and thinks that everything we do from now on must be wrong. The truth is, we need to make up for our mistakes and free Iraq from it's oppressors because it's the right thing to do and we're the best suited to do it.
Wow, Flay and I agreed on something political! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Global anti-war protests on Saturday btw
Starting a war is THE GREATEST CRIME IN HUMAN HISTORY EVER. Resulting in a humanitarian catastrophe every time.
Whatever crimes Hussein has done, a war cannnot be the right answer. Stopping crimes against humanity by committing the greatetst one oneself? A military humanism is impossible as it is a contradiction in itself. Occupation instead of oppression? How nobel...
If I may quote:
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> UN Chapter 1 Article 2:</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered; and, All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner consistent with the Purposes of the United Nations. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> UN Chapter 7 Article 51:</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Based on your strict reasoning, we should not have participated in WW2 and let germany just gas all those jews, and japan gas all those chinese. Based on your strict reasoning, we should have allowed north korea to invade and occupy south korea. We should have let germany occupy france in WW1. We should have never become independent from britain.
Right? When you use absolutes (broken record time for MonsE), your argument automatically becomes null and void. Saying 'always' means you are no different than any other fanatic.
Now, what is your proposal to removing dictators and freeing the oppressed?
Would you think more people will die in the war or in the rest of Saddam's regime if its left alone?