Relocation
Mindmeldme
The Evil One Join Date: 2002-10-27 Member: 1637Members
The Evil One Join Date: 2002-10-27 Member: 1637Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Seems to be a new thing for Comm's</div> Now I don't really understand this strat. I seem it used often by good commanders...ones I have played under a number of times...on both sides. Now sometimes It works and other times you get raped. of course maps do depend on it but it seems that outright the plan is to just relocate the whole base to a hive. Upside...aleins won't take you down with Onos at least. Downside...if your men are ambushed on the way there...or slaughtered when you get there...your kinda screwed. most of the time I have seen this work...and even if you don't go to a hive it seems it can help you control most of the map from the simple case of spawn points. however if you don't take a hive allowing the aliens to have fades seems to be a killer.
I just wonder why I see this so often...not in that it works well in some cases...but why comm's use it so often. Though I have seen it work...it's a chance I don't like to take...nor ever need to. The rare games I lose, start to end..has always been due to a lack of teamwork in my marines. I also find a lot of these strat's require good teams...which I have found lacking a number of times.
I just wonder why I see this so often...not in that it works well in some cases...but why comm's use it so often. Though I have seen it work...it's a chance I don't like to take...nor ever need to. The rare games I lose, start to end..has always been due to a lack of teamwork in my marines. I also find a lot of these strat's require good teams...which I have found lacking a number of times.
Comments
The primary thinking is that the Marines' starting location has no tactical advantage with the exception of a res point and perhaps, defensive position. However, a Hive location offer both those advantages AND, it's a hive. What more can be said?
In the event that the marines screw up and the kharaa are on the rampage, at least they won't be blasting you to hell and back with bile bombs, green spores or cramming Onos down...or up your guts. In a sense, capturing that third hive would indeed end the game, and it normally happens in anycase
However, as some people may testify, loosing all 3 hives is not a death sentence. It will be in 5 minutes but 5 minutes is perhaps all you need to regroup, re-equip and start retaking the 3rd hive, and use the momentum to continue on
Comms like to use what usually works. This strategy appears to work well because it tends to lead to the very strong dual hive lockdown situation that is so critical for marine success. The marines respawn at the 3rd hive, thus it is ALWAYS protected to the last man and there is on average one less phase gate link to the next hive, which is about 1 second = A LOT
Plus, in the absolute dire circumstance, you use Emergency Beacon and you pop back in the starting spawn spot =)
Also note one of the original ideas of this tactic: The idiot team or marines (if it's the case) spawn in in the 3rd hive. They are defending it whether they like it or not <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Thus, no need to yell "Get the the 3rd hive!"
You only need 3 or so good marines who know how to deal with a lone skulk to execute the swap. So long as they know what to do, and can make a beeline towards an uninhabited AND defensible hive, the plan is in motion.
Another thing: A full team executing this plan will tend to carry it through. Once the marines achieve "critical mass" for a squad's size, skulks are not effective because they get cut down far too quickly to close in. It'll take a long time before teh skulks can fully chomp down a CC to prevent it, and it'll be hard to anticipate which hive they'll be attempting to capture
it seems strange that people always spank down the decent strategies but accept the les effective ones.
fine ive killed the vent hive on Hera within about 5-10 mins roughly 20 times now depending on my mood (and team) then get called lame but heres to things to think about:
1) do think mappers just splat out ideas without considering anything ? some maps may seem that way buit sure if you like ill make you a square room with no advantages and no disadvantages.
2) aliens can destroy a marines base MUCH! easier then marines can kill alien hive, think about it aliens need to spend about 2 res max just for carapace (which they dont even need) and they can get the IPs plus any marines that come out where as marines need to spend masses of res and max power to get a decent strategy going.
sorry if it seems im **** or what ever but constant spanking of relocation just annoys me with peoples "justifying" reasons for why marines arent allowed to use a good strategy.
1) do think mappers just splat out ideas without considering anything ? some maps may seem that way buit sure if you like ill make you a square room with no advantages and no disadvantages.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But clearly you are right. Mappers make their maps different, and sometimes a map is created where you gain control of too much territory. Marines should NOT be allowed to dominate to hives while only controlling one little spot of the map. That leaves the kharaa at permanent 1 hive races and abilities that very much suck for half the players of the game. Against a marine base with turrets and spawning portals, 1 hive aliens just cant cut it. They weren't meant to. But as the marines **** up balance by having command of two hives without working for it, the game is stalled here and slowly slips towards kharaa defeat once the marines can be arsed to not turtle there and go out on the offence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) aliens can destroy a marines base MUCH! easier then marines can kill alien hive, think about it aliens need to spend about 2 res max just for carapace (which they dont even need) and they can get the IPs plus any marines that come out where as marines need to spend masses of res and max power to get a decent strategy going.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The marines can rebuild their base at a stroke of the magic commander wand - anywhere on the map. Aliens are tied to their hive. Aliens cannot fortify their hive in the first part of the game because ressources come so slowly to them. Besides, 5 skulks rushing a base with 5 marines + turrets usually means dead skulks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sorry if it seems im **** or what ever but constant spanking of relocation just annoys me with peoples "justifying" reasons for why marines arent allowed to use a good strategy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spank because it makes for many very similiar games when one strategy is so superior to others that the other side can only react to it, rather than come up with their own ingenious one. That is the problem with processing relocation - you allow the marines to do it, you're in big trouble as aliens. So you are forced to play around that style alone - you cannot say "Ok, we let them have it while we plan for other stuff to surprise them with". Because all your surprises are tied up to the now unaccessible 2nd hive.
I blast the tactic because it is riding on a weakness in the game that leaves aliens with very little to do. All they can hope for is marine screw-up. Be a good sport, don't use it simply. Or have you gotten too much in love with your super fast, monotonous win strategies that you do not enjoy a different game, a game where you dont simply turn the Win knob? The particular kind of gameplay is retarding for the game, no one bothers to pursuit other strategies or tactics.
you also seem to think that you cant use numerous strateiges at once as aliens, you can stop the processing rush then use other other strategies.
just coz somethings works wells you shouldnt be moaning that something needs to change in the game but thinking how i can counter this, for example if gorges and/or skulks actually bothered to patrol then relocation wouldnt be as much of a problem, 1 problem with publics games is they see early game skulk rushing as a necessity rather then checking hives/key points and protecting the gorge.
simply put:
forget the old days of every skulk rushing their base but instead patrole key points such as processing and find ways of countering such strategies rather just spanking strategies that work.
if you cant see reloaction as a viable strategy then it would apear you want marines to turtle or rush.
I've actually seen commanders relocate to Generator Hive in Caged. I mean - why?? Okay, so it's pretty, but it's in the remotest corner of the map, and doesn't even have an en-suite resource nozzle. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'> [I hereby humbly submit "en-suite resource nozzle" for entry into the Natural Selection lexicon, although it will clearly never compete with BlueGhost's epoch-defining "armory humping".] </span>
Needless to say they lost a lot of respect for me, stopped following my orders and just rambo'd the rest of the game away. Against a superior alien team I felt it was important to get the momentum goin and get some results. But it's not for everyone. You might just find a bullet in the chamber. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
*beep beep beep*
"yay the com used distress beacon before the aliens chomped away the obs and the IPs"
*4+ marines die from OC fire as they spawn in*
Of course.. this is after the second hive is up and there's a nice ammount of defense in both hives.
Now the downside to relocating is that you lose momentum in a marine force if you are taking too long to relocate. Momentum is key for locking down hives and strapping the aliens to the wall. If you are spending valuable resources on relocation then those are resources you can't be spending on 1) JP's (extreemely importatn for locking down a 1st or 2nd hive) 2) weps and armor upgrades 3) phase gates 4) assault rifles. If the marines are going to be aggressive, they need these four things to achieve it, however these items cost lots of money....money relocation will take up. S
Essentially its up to the commander. If you want to rush the game, as a comm you need momentum and good marines. Seems to me that if you want to relocate yuo are fixing yourself for a slower paced game. Neither strat is really bad, its just commander preferrence.
Hives are usually really good for aliens, E.G Refinery on Bast (i think) it is so open, a marine can literally shoot the hive from the other side, and fades can rocket spam a marine base.
But the smaller ones are great for fades, because acid rocket does splash damage to buildings and marines, and since most commanders (and myself0 tend to build fairly compactly, a fade can do alot of damage in a small hive.
The pubs I am playing on have long stopped rushing the marine base at the start without thought. WE are now accustomed to commanders wanting to tech rush, so we mill about in ad hoc pairs to try and nip any kind of expansion in the bud. The marines do so too. We also are painfully aware how fragile skulks are towards lmg's in the beginning. On a map like hera a starting hive in Vent or Datacore makes it easier for a determined alien team to keep the marines out of processing. But woe to us if we start in archiving..... If the initial encounter between skulks and marines leads to skulks dying, it can mean the beginning of the slow, withering end of the game because the marines get some vital critical seconds to set up that processing relocation while kharaa respawn and scram back to processing single file. Once your IP's are up it's getting tough on the aliens. Many buts and ifs are involved in that strategy working, but the kharaa must always play catchup to the marines in the start of the game, and even more so if they find them selves with a relocation to processing. Remember, marines can put down a turret pharm in a minute, aliens need to hog res for ages before they can get any kind of serious map defense going. So they can't even lame up processing to prevent the marines from turtling there.
So what you really want is stellar gameplay of the aliens to beat a mediocre tactic by the marines. Nope, 2 hive lockdown by one key location is simply too cheap. No position on the map should be able to command the fate of two hives as long as aliens cannot pull out efficient counters with 1 hive. If marines can keep processing, it allows the aliens to pratically conquer the rest of the map - except the two hives. So they roll in res which they cant use for anything and the marines are constantly starved for res because they spend all their points on fortifying their position and scanning hives to make sure a ninja gorge didnt put up a hive. You think that is funny? It's boring for both sides. With 1.1 we might be able to, as aliens, to evolve into mini-onos at hive 1, a great base breaker, perhaps even a little mini-fade that can acid rocket in support by gorge and a stampeding onos. All in weaker sized down versions of course. Then a relocation to processing would be utter suicide for the marines if they didnt also make sure to fight for ressource towers all over the map.
As it is now you are doomed to run yourself into a bloody pulp with 3-carapace skulks in a large group. They can make a difference if there are not too many turrets around. But often they fail on a base if there are marines neraby. And there is because the marines know that they are in a hot spot. The aliens only win by the marines somehow screwing up, not by the ingeniuity of the aliens them selves. Ill be so blunt and compare it to the Iraq war going on now. Iraq are the 1-hive skulks. They are rolling in oil res but has nothing to use it for. Siege guns pound anything they try into the ground .The marines are assaulting now, after having sat on all the hives for 12 years hogging res and waiting for HA HMG + welders. And nades and JPs and full upgrades. If Iraq manages to pull a victory out of it's arse now, it will be because of a major cockup by the coalition. Not because Iraq has anything efficient to do right now. (Ok, Saddam must be Fatty then <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> kill the gorge, kill the gorge)
Lerks are not very good without adrenaline because they run out of spikes too fast. Take movement as your 1st chamber and see your skulks die in split seconds. The developers HAVE acknowledged that there are imbalances on certain map with hives, and they will fix it. But sure, keep riding your pole horse and justify how fair it is and how it is really the problem of bad skulk play and nothing to do with balance issues etc., and keep the gameplay in a retarded state where no one can ever see a point in trying new stuff because it leads to certain loss. You'll ride it smack into 1.1 where it will break and we will get different gameplay, with new problems, but obviously old and big problems fixed.
Relocating is too costly at the beginning of the game for me... it lets the khraa have a advantage while you are trying to get your new base up. Plus its easy to hold a hive with just a few turrents so why go overkill and get a CC + IPs? as long as you can keep 2 or so marines defending your res points you will be fine
Lerk Master: I think the fact that the double node area are open is a GOOD thing. Know why I hate the Nancy marine start? It's way too CRAMPED! Your base being in an open area=your marines having less stuff blocking their shots and more room to move around. Small, cramped spaces=your buildings taking the shots intead of the skulk.
btw comparing the war on saddam to this game is idiotic, its no where near the same mate TBH.
btw any marine team that just turtles in processing will durely die, when i do it ill either just seige vent/data straight away or ill secure all the major RTs such as holo..reception..old marine base and generator along with the processing one of course, thats at least 5 turrets, i also get both the vent RTs if they have arch which means abour 8 RTs.
if you feel relocation is unfair then by all means cry or what ever but its still a viable strat in my eyes and you just cant seem to counter it, ive counted just about every relocation so far and unless im UBER GOD (or something) then im sure its not out of reach.
im also waiting for the day of 1 hive onos and fades as i love aliens and am sure to enjoy then challenge, you can wait sitting in your dark cornor saying relocation is bad all you liek but the fact is its a viable strat, give me 1 decent reason marines should never relocate and ill show you a 14 year old that doesnt masturbate.
also someone said about lerks needing adren to be effective (cant remember who) but sefice to see they dont as ive been training with lerks lately and found they are extremly powerfull with just carapace, infact i find some about twice as good as skulks as they have actually more "lifetime", the same dmg, ranged attacks and can obviously fly.
if you still feel the same about relocation then dont botehr replying to me coz i cant be assed to convince ignorant people TBH, its just a waste of time telling people that give absolutly no reason why its unfair, unless of course you seem to think im the best alien play, if you feel im not the relocation is viable mate...
People seem to forget that this is a hybrid FPS. the RTS element promotes strategies, and different strategies should never be shot down, no matter how good or bad they effect the game (well except the 2 hive with 1 spot but anyway...)
FPS + RTS = NS
People seem to forget that this is a hybrid FPS. the RTS element promotes strategies, and different strategies should never be shot down, no matter how good or bad they effect the game (well except the 2 hive with 1 spot but anyway...)
FPS + RTS = NS <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol well sometimes people dont go through puberty till they older so ill except late blumers <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The primary thinking is that the Marines' starting location has no tactical advantage with the exception of a res point and perhaps, defensive position. However, a Hive location offer both those advantages AND, it's a hive. What more can be said?
In the event that the marines screw up and the kharaa are on the rampage, at least they won't be blasting you to hell and back with bile bombs, green spores or cramming Onos down...or up your guts. In a sense, capturing that third hive would indeed end the game, and it normally happens in anycase
However, as some people may testify, loosing all 3 hives is not a death sentence. It will be in 5 minutes but 5 minutes is perhaps all you need to regroup, re-equip and start retaking the 3rd hive, and use the momentum to continue on
Comms like to use what usually works. This strategy appears to work well because it tends to lead to the very strong dual hive lockdown situation that is so critical for marine success. The marines respawn at the 3rd hive, thus it is ALWAYS protected to the last man and there is on average one less phase gate link to the next hive, which is about 1 second = A LOT
Plus, in the absolute dire circumstance, you use Emergency Beacon and you pop back in the starting spawn spot =)
Also note one of the original ideas of this tactic: The idiot team or marines (if it's the case) spawn in in the 3rd hive. They are defending it whether they like it or not <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Thus, no need to yell "Get the the 3rd hive!"
You only need 3 or so good marines who know how to deal with a lone skulk to execute the swap. So long as they know what to do, and can make a beeline towards an uninhabited AND defensible hive, the plan is in motion.
Another thing: A full team executing this plan will tend to carry it through. Once the marines achieve "critical mass" for a squad's size, skulks are not effective because they get cut down far too quickly to close in. It'll take a long time before teh skulks can fully chomp down a CC to prevent it, and it'll be hard to anticipate which hive they'll be attempting to capture <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
the disadvantages are the resources it costs in the beginning, and the time you lose actually relocating to a hive. Also, hives tend to be very alien friendly (not all hives but a good majority) in the sense that if you wanna relocate, you are at a disadvantage. If you wanna counter with turrets are mines, go right ahead, but that costs even more resources and puts you even more behind.
Locking down 2 hives IS NOT ESSENTIAL TO WINNING, where people get this information is beyond me. You dont have to capture and lockdown the hive, you just have to stop the gorge from expanding to there, its that simple. Save the resources for an advanced armory and a proto lab, and while you are doing that, send one person to Cap RTs and the rest to keep constantly attacking.
2 hive lockdown is not only a flawed strat that only works against terrible alien players, but it makes the game quite boring if it does work, this strat is a joke.
one of the biggest reasons for relocation is obviously it stops aliens getting the third hive but its also alot easier to defend just 1-2 bases then to defend 3.
when i relocate i dont always get the 2nd hive, i usually get as many RTs as possible and then upgrade...but only if the marines are actually any good.
if the marines are pretty poor then ill get both hives to give my marines more chance.
id say 2 hive lock downs depend on how good your marines are
The key is to relocate FAST, as most comms (I imagine) imagine (heh) it.
Since your marines are piling out there fast, if they all die it won't really matter because you can treat it as a good alien rush at marine start, timewise.
What I mean is, let's say you have a bunch of marines still in base, and aliens rush and kill a bunch of marines. The time and resource difference is basically the same as having your marines dying on the way to relocate. So at the worst you can just keep building at marine start as if nothing out of the ordinary happened.
Now if you have placed comm chair etc, and aliens jump the marines and you lose that base, then you may have to rethink your strat, as that is a serious setback.
Now if all your marines die, and aliens h4x and kick your @ss at base, well fast gg and little time wasted, it's not a big deal.
PS I didn't read any other post except for the originator; <i>man</i> I'm getting lazy <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
in response to the topic however...
I did a little relocating back in the 1.0-1.02 days, but after that I realized unless its a really nice area(Bast's refinery/feedwater, Nothing's Cargo Bay, and possibly Taniths Fusion and Caged's Vent come to mind)it doesnt really warrant losing a res node and the cost of rebuilding a base. Sure some can count it as the same as perhaps locking down the hive, but after doing it for a while, its just not the same because when aliens learn your in their hive, they tend to attack more relentlessly than just your main. So what usually ends up happening is you have to build your base + the TF+Turrets if you want more than 2 or 3 marines to leave out to do stuff.
Summary: If it can prove to be a profitable relocation(either access to more nodes, or it is a powerful choke point), then do it, but if not, only relocate to a hive in an emergency.
It´s about losing ground. Sure, I know most people feels that it doesnt matter how much ground you have unless it´s worth something. This is not true. It doesnt take much more effort to just secure a position than it takes to relocate there. And if you just secure it the aliens now have 2 places to worry about.
And here is my point. Alien players seem to allways do their own thing unless they are really organized. If you have more ground their efforts will spread out. 2 aliens attacking you base, 2 aliens attacking your outpost and the rest is somewhere between. If you simply relocate they still only have one place to attack so all the aliens will attack that spot.
It´s important to view a strategy from both sides. I think most commanders who relocate mainly do it because that way they can hold an important location whitout getting confused by dealing with complex situations. Hence.. lazy commander. Sorry, my personal belief only.
Thanatos.
and when you nail a heavy fortified base as a sulk you feel damn proud.
whats wrong with relocating? its just another marine tactic. and two hive lockdowns get a tad boring these days. epic games argh.
in response to Thanatos. yes its true that your giving the aliens only one place to attack (3rd hive). BUT, in early game, skulk rushes are lessening already since more and more ppl realise mass rushing a marine base is suicide. THEREFORE, they wont even choose to attack the relocated base, since its the same as rushing marine start. so they are still spread all over the place, except maybe the old marine base. my point being that they WONT attack since its the same as rushing marine start.
I don't see much flawed about it at all. With newbie marines, you wont get it done, but with even 3 marines who listen, the game is yours. With 10+ marines, it's not exactly hard. Every marine goes to hive #1, killing skulks like nothing. Skulks are VERY easy to kill if they don't have carapace, even I can stop them and I suck. The marines build up about 4 turrets, cap the res, get some IPs, and then quickly move out to hive #2, leaving behind 3 people to build+guard, plus the commander. Six marines wait at hive #2 while aliens most likely don't even have the defensive chambers coming up. They wait till the com can drop a RT, TF and PG, then they mine both hives with 9+ turrets, there, quick and simple double hive lock down.. almost imposible to break. Then if there's a double res node, the marines go cap those. 4+ res in a 20+ game=marines literaly batheing in res.
Maybe if lerks can get to an angle spike the turrets from a distance while a gorge spits out the mines.. it would be posible.. but that would mean the marines aren't noticing this... which most likely means they're moving out to hive #3 to win the game. Even if you kill all the turrets, and put up the hive.. you'll have to protect it quick, since no one will be spawning in after they take down your third hive... I've seen this strat used many MANY times.. it's very easy if your marines listen to you. It's far from a joke.. it's as deadly as the JP+HMG strat. It's just JP+HMG is much much easier to pull off.. and if you can hold 2 or more res nodes you can send wave after wave of it.
Now that I think about it.. in 1.1 it might be even worse.. since the gorge wont get res as fast (no one will cap at 33, if there's 1 hive onos) I mean.. sure the onos will be there.. but will anyone get the res before the marines can win? =/ If your gorge rushes for defense.. you'll have a better chance. It basically comes down to Good marines who listen to their com>any aliens.
If you want to throw spawning power at a target, build a cc and ip's right outside it. Most often, it's the enemy hive during the first 2 minutes of the game, so you can easily spawn camp (it's a rush strategy, but it takes advantage of certain game inbalances that I hope will go away in 1.1).
If you are losing your normal base, but have another base somewhere, relocate.
Otherwise, just play from your own base.