Roobubba wrote:<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That is blatant hypocrisy, coming from this lame sod who can't even blow up mines as a gorge, yet professes to know everything about the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->This coming from a guy needs to make FOUR atempts to post a message... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hypocricy? Oh please, you don't know the meaning of the word. You can misquote me all you like, but that's beside the point, I don't go out of my way get myself killed rushing the marine spawn to det mines either. That's not the gorge's job, (unless the marines mine a hive) and any gorge doing that (especialy solo) would likely end up dead.
As for waiting for 1.1 and not posting, then why don't we CLOSE down the forums then? No use for a suggestion forum if 1.1 is coming right? Wrong. Believe it or not, some people still like to debate suggestions even though we know changes are coming. You have your opinion, I have mine. The difference is that I'm not trying to stop people from expressing their opinion like you are.
Thankfully you have no mod powers, so I can just disregard your posts as the babble they are. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Savant+Mar 26 2003, 10:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 26 2003, 10:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can misquote me all you like, but that's beside the point, I don't go out of my way get myself killed rushing the marine spawn to det mines either. That's not the gorge's job, (unless the marines mine a hive) and any gorge doing that (especialy solo) would likely end up dead.
As for waiting for 1.1 and not posting, then why don't we CLOSE down the forums then? No use for a suggestion forum if 1.1 is coming right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, your original post was about mining alien spawn. I don't think anyones suggesting you charge into a base full of marines to detonate a couple of mines. If theres just one/none (hey, after all, the place is mined to hell and back, it's secure) and your clearing the way for a skulk rush on the other hand...
Anyway, getting to the point, we're not saying you should rush into marine spawn, but we are saying don't complain about mines being laid in alien spawn when a gorge can happily detonate them. Which you've pointed out yourself so do you agree your first post is null and void ?
As to 1.1, I would love S & I to temporarily shut down because of it. Let 1.1 come out and then suggest away. Remember this isn't a small server tweak, the game is going to change in fundamental ways. It seems every second post in S & I is something that is going to be changed in 1.1, and thats only of the things we humble mortals know.
You're right, my post was about 'mine rushing' (IE mines in the hive areas and not marine spawn as in the posted demo) but you're still missing my point. Whether a gorge can det the mines is a <a href='http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html' target='_blank'>'STRAW MAN'</a>. The last few posters on this thread have all succumb to posting 'straw man' fallacies, and people are missing the point here.
The thread is not about who can det mines, the thread is about the 'abuse' of mines in certain situations.
Regards,
Savant
PS: I'm not sure if shutting down the S&I would be that good an idea. Right now it seems to be one of the few things holding people to wait for the next patch. As you can see by the lack of decorum in many of the posts of late, some people are getting frustrated by the wait.
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Mar 24 2003, 09:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Mar 24 2003, 09:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for mines, they used to detonate chain-reaction-style if placed too close together; I'd love to see that reinstated. It's a very fine line between making them too powerful, and making them too annoying to be useful (have to re-mine something every time a skulk blows it up). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Played in tourney mode lately coil? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The last few posters on this thread have all succumb to posting 'straw man' fallacies <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Straw man fallacies you say? You mean like this one?:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Frankly if I'm a gorge I don't have 10 minutes to waste trying to figure out the 'magic spot' on a mine when people are marching on the hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your exaggerated and missrepresented position of gorges spending 10 minutes attempting to detonate a mine. And that pulling it off requires some sort of hocus pocus when i have clearly demonstrated how any gorge who knows what they are doing can immediately detonate any mine at will. There's your straw man.
To attack your initial statement (mines are too powerful when used offensively) i'd actually want some sort of argument supporting your statement to comment on... unfortunely it doesn't exist. We can see what you're attempting to say:
<i>Mines <b>can</b> be used offensively (Insert example) thus i think they should be changed to prevent their offensive use.</i>
This is the mines segment of your post compressed into a sentance. You threw in a few words such as "exploitable" and "(not) intended" to add a little bit of omg h4x flavour to it, but when you boil it down you're suggesting that offensive mining is an <i>improper</i> use of mines, and that is your reason for wanting them removed. 2 questions... who gives you almighty "This is not the way it is meant to be" powers? And since when has there ever been a "way it was meant to be"?
Offensive mining is an original and inventive use of available tools. Use my wording instead of your wording and suddenly the whole thing flips on its head doesn't it. You can call it <i>improper</i> or <i>exploitable</i>. Or you can call it <i>Inventive</i> and <i>ingenious</i>. Frankly i think the only difference is which team you are playing on at the time.
So tell me, why does this inventive and ingenious use of an available marine tool need to be removed? Mining the entrances to hives? I've just demonstrated how you can destroy these mines easily using your friendly neighbourhood gorge - easily to the point of being able to pop your head around a corner, det a mine that marines are standing next to, and then pop back into hiding. Considering the marines actually have to get to your hive and sit there mining it, it surely isnt too much trouble to expect you to have a gorge somewhere in the vicinity of your hive.
Marines mining the floor as you attack them? Pretty inventive if you ask me, how about you run round the corner and wait for him to move off his mine patch. Unless the spot he is mining is in a location he is trying to defend, in which case its defensive mining and there is no difference between what he is doing and what people have been doing with mines since the dawn of NS. With FF off, heading into a mine field while fighting a skulk is common sense.
Mining a vent as you shoot at a hive from inside it with a JP/HMG? You've got your gorge again, exploding 3 mines in the face of the JPer who laid them is sure to give him a bit of a shock. You should have lerks by this point for ranged defence which does not require you to go through the vent in order to shoot him, additionally you can heal spray the hive repeatedly. Because firing from a vent ensures a marine will be a good distance from the hive, making the spread of his HMG all the more innefficient, slow damage due to shots lost through spread = easy healing.
All quite inventive tactics, mostly they have little or no place in clan play because there are much more effective ways of winning a game. But if a marine team who have clearly walked all over you wants to have some fun with mines then i'm sure they'll go right ahead.
Here's a tip: If you want to get to the heart of marine advantages vs. aliens, try looking at the early game pre-carapace combat advantage, and the vulnerability of alien assets at this point which allow a marine team to maintain their advantage. Marine strength isnt in their ability to drop mines in a circle and stand in the middle. Its in their ability to kill their way in a group to the hive, kill gorges and cripple alien tech before it gets a chance to get going, to keep the aliens in a perpetual early game where the marines dominate. Its in their large starting res pool and flexible tech tree which gives them a wide variety of fast tech/expand options, in comparison to aliens who have a slow start and a very rigid tech tree.
Complaining about every individual little thing which you think was the cause of your loss is what's missing the point. From jetpacks to mines everything that kills you is the next overpowered super weapon. The advantage the marine team has over the alien team is deeply routed in the play mechanics, its not in the cost of mines or the FPS dependancy of the jetpack, or in the **** bunnyhopping. Jetpack rushes are effective because of 2 things: the marines early game advantage that allows them to pressure, contain and delay the alien team. And their flexible tech tree that allows them to tech easily. If prior to the JPs being dropped you are not able to make a serious impression on the aliens, then any win you take from this game is most likely snatching victory from the jaws of defeat against an alien side who did not take the necessary action to defend against you. When we "JP rush" another team we control (or attempt to control) the game from the outset, we're in their hive, we're hunting their gorges and we're killing their res towers. Its the marine early game advantage that allows us to do this. When JPs are dropped they usually wrap up a game that we have controlled for some time.
If your marine team has to cower in its base while you tech then you are playing an alien side that is significantly better than you. JP rushes only win from this situation if the aliens are careless, such as a pub team. Every JP rushing team we have played against that has not attempted to pressure us we have beaten, because with free map control we have early carapace, multiple res nodes and the freedom to harrass marine res and tech structures at will.
A marine team can and should be offensive throughout the early game, they have the strength to prevent/delay alien tech and this is what gives them an advantage. NS is all early game, and the marines are the masters of the early game.
Whoa, mammoth post from TeoH there... (nice sig btw)
I agree with using the word 'inventive' rather than 'exploit' in this case - it can be quite funny to see marines bunnyhopping and laying a defensive mine circle only for gorge spit to blow the mines up...
I've been seeing mines used more and more lately - people are beginning to see just how good they can be. however, many people are taking it too far and losing their team the game by wasting 50-odd res on mine packs right at the start... just keep a lid on the number of mines you use people!
I suspect oc's behave like lerk spikes. The graphics depicting their shooting does not match the actual code behind. A lerk spike hits exactly where your crosshairs point at where as the graphics shows the spike landing a fair distance short of the target when you shoot at long range. But it is not a 100% accuracy weapon as the pistol. There is an unknown percentage probability that your hit is recorded as a miss. I am sure it isnt a cone fire weapon either. The lerk spike is a hit scan weapon, and I suspect the oc weapon is as well too. Just a very slow firing hit scan weapon with a probability to hit that is less than 100% but also independant of your movement. The marine turretes have the same problem actually. Or feature if you like. The distance to an oc is irrelevant it seems. It hits no worse or better if you are close, which could indicate the algorithm covering the damage is not a cone fire, but a true random number thing. Perhaps flayra or someone else can help us?
The lerk spikes idea is a good theory, i recall a game a few days ago where i was crouching at the top of the ramp in the high entrance to maintenance. With a wall of lame on the ramp below me. Every shot fired by these towers collided either with the wall or the ramp infront of me. None fired past or came close to me, but as i was sitting still in the corner, i would every few seconds take a hit from an OC. Thinking about it, what this reminds me of was the lerk spiking situation where you look over the top of a railing. Firing spikes which appear to collide with the railing and go nowhere, but you can actually kill marines below you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It hits no worse or better if you are close, which could indicate the algorithm covering the damage is not a cone fire, but a true random number thing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought this too untill i tested it a little. It seems from my JPing tests that there is some sort of relationship between how you dodge and wether you are hit or not, it's just very very innaccurate and hard to know anything for sure. It's possible to stand still infront of an OC and take no damage for 3-4 shots, but you can fly past and and take a hit. However over a period it seems that dodging around the OC does reduce the number of times it will hit you. I would predict a hitscan weapon, as you said, with a meaningless visual projectile glob, and a random firing cone that is extremely wide. Perhaps the hitscan "bullet" is also very wide which would make its effectiveness at range a little more plausible. But i still can't explain how it can sometimes miss from point blank range unless some shots are actually deemed "duds" and not fired.
I really don't like the behaviour of either races towers because they are seemingly very chance-orientated. I'm sure everyone has suffered from lucky OC syndrome once in a while. You go to hurdle a wall you've jumped 10 times before with no damage, and this time for some unknown reason it decides to insta-gib you. I would much prefer towers that were highly accurate, but did a steady stream of small damage over time. The idea being that you have roughly the same time to live when standing infront of one as you currently do, but results dont vary nearly as much. Any way of implementing that and still keeping some behaviour that allows you to 'dodge' towers to a limited degree would be welcome.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Jesus.... this is rapidly turning into an Internet standard 'I can use bigger words than you' debate. Either work it out, as normal human beings, or give it up. Mm'kay? <img src='http://watmm.com/forum/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
But yeah, I think OC's are hitscan too. Because I've watched myself die after testing it, because sometimes OC's can hit a flying well JP'er from a fair distance, and sometimes they seem to miss near-pointblank HMG'ers.
Bit too luck based, as it doesn't take into account your movement.
TeoH obviously has more patience than me <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I won't dignify Savant's response with a response of my own, Teo has said it all and said it very well. I maintain that mines are perfectly well balanced at present.
[Conjecture] The fact that they can be easily detonated by fades won't affect anything in 1.1 AFAIK, as the fade's 1 and 2 hive abilities will be swapped around, so at one hive, fades will be able to blink and swipe. That won't stop them just being able to run over multiple mines then run off for healing of course.[/Conjecture]
Anyways, I have work to do and a server to set up.
Roo
(don't get me started on long words <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Whoa some decent reading!!! I think there is some decent points from everyone but i say settle down and wait till 1.1, I think this topic has had enough... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your exaggerated and missrepresented<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>[sic]</span> position of gorges spending 10 minutes attempting to detonate a mine. And that pulling it off requires some sort of hocus pocus when i have clearly demonstrated how any gorge who knows what they are doing can immediately detonate any mine at will. There's your straw man.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, that was a satirical exaggeration. One would think that would be obvious.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To attack your initial statement (mines are too powerful when used offensively) i'd actually want some sort of argument supporting your statement to comment on... unfortunately it doesn't exist. We can see what you're attempting to say:
<i>Mines can be used offensively (Insert example) thus i think they should be changed to prevent their offensive use.</i>
This is the mines segment of your post compressed into a sentance.<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>[sic]</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I fully supported my arguement. The fact that you disagree with my point of view does not magically lessen my statements.
I don't think they should prevent mines from being used offensively, but it should be EXTREMELY costly to do so. This is where our points of view differs. I believe that mines were never put in the game as an offensive weapon and as such should not ideally be used as such.
You are more an 'anything goes' person and so long as you can use your various 'exploits' then you feel that it is up to the OTHER person to change to play on YOUR terms instead of balancing the game so people play on an even footing. This is where you and I disagree.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Offensive mining is an original and inventive use of available tools. Use my wording instead of your wording and suddenly the whole thing flips on its head doesn't it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not really. You want to call it "original and inventive"...? OK. Yuno what else I found 'original and inventive'? The alien to marine 'skin hack' (as it came to be known) where a player used a certain game function to end up as a marine on the alien team. Quite an ingenious use of the game interface, don't you think?
Oh, but it was removed from the game. Why? It matched your criteria. It was an ORIGINAL and INVENTIVE use of the available tools was it not? So why was it considered 'bad' and this mine issue is considered 'good'?
Two words, BALANCE and GAMEPLAY. Does offensive mining provide enhanced balance and gameplay to the game, or does it DETRACT from balance and gameplay. My belief is that it does the latter.
[skipping more straw man arguments where you try and justify mine placement based on the ability to destroy mines, which is NOT the point of this discussion.]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Complaining about every individual little thing which you think was the cause of your loss is what's missing the point. From jetpacks to mines everything that kills you is the next overpowered super weapon. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Frankly I don't seem to be the one complaining here. The people who object WITHOUT EVEN CONSIDERING the argument are the complainers here. I can respect those who disagree, but at least toss up some semblance of an arguement to back it up.
Your statement above is also extremely flawed. You seem to suggest that I somehow complain about "every little thing" that causes me a loss when in fact, you don't know me or how I have 'lost' games. If you read my first message you would see I was playing ON THE MARINE TEAM when I saw the abuse of mines, and the alien team actually ended up WINNING the game in which I saw the questionable tactics. That sorta blows your argument right out of the water now doesn't it? You really should read the messages of the people you are replying to.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS is all early game, and the marines are the masters of the early game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmmm, interesting considering that Flayra has said that he felt that aliens were supposed to be 'more powerful' in the early game. Fast speed and a powerful bite. The only time that these really come into play is in the early stages of the game. Once marines tech up (be it JP or HA etc) and move out, the early game advantage is lost. Skulks become a nuisance and easily killed with HMGs. (10 bullets or less kill them - even with level 3 carapace)
Marines were never intended to 'own' the map from the start. Be it the slow <b>native</b> (IE non bunny hop) movement speed compared to skulks, or the bite damage that can kill a marine in two chomps, marines were never meant to 'own' the early game. The resource economy itself is an indication of this, given the fact the aliens need 3-4 res nodes to put up a reasonable defence, while marines could do the same with 2. (yes I know, being addressed in 1.1 - I'm talking about now)
Frankly I don't think EITHER team should be 'master' of the early game since any one team that is the 'master' likely will have some kind of advantage. Perhaps this is where we differ. I don't believe that all the coding that went into NS was done so the games would end in 10 minutes with the majority of it not seeing the light of day. I believe that games should be 30-45 minutes long, and should see advanced weapons and evolutions on BOTH sides.
Then again, I've always been more interested in gameplay over 'winning'. I'd sooner lose a good game than win an unbalanced game any day.
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->This coming from a guy needs to make FOUR atempts to post a message... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hypocricy? Oh please, you don't know the meaning of the word. You can misquote me all you like, but that's beside the point, I don't go out of my way get myself killed rushing the marine spawn to det mines either. That's not the gorge's job, (unless the marines mine a hive) and any gorge doing that (especialy solo) would likely end up dead.
As for waiting for 1.1 and not posting, then why don't we CLOSE down the forums then? No use for a suggestion forum if 1.1 is coming right? Wrong. Believe it or not, some people still like to debate suggestions even though we know changes are coming. You have your opinion, I have mine. The difference is that I'm not trying to stop people from expressing their opinion like you are.
Thankfully you have no mod powers, so I can just disregard your posts as the babble they are. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Regards,
Savant
As for waiting for 1.1 and not posting, then why don't we CLOSE down the forums then? No use for a suggestion forum if 1.1 is coming right?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, your original post was about mining alien spawn. I don't think anyones suggesting you charge into a base full of marines to detonate a couple of mines. If theres just one/none (hey, after all, the place is mined to hell and back, it's secure) and your clearing the way for a skulk rush on the other hand...
Anyway, getting to the point, we're not saying you should rush into marine spawn, but we are saying don't complain about mines being laid in alien spawn when a gorge can happily detonate them. Which you've pointed out yourself so do you agree your first post is null and void ?
As to 1.1, I would love S & I to temporarily shut down because of it. Let 1.1 come out and then suggest away. Remember this isn't a small server tweak, the game is going to change in fundamental ways. It seems every second post in S & I is something that is going to be changed in 1.1, and thats only of the things we humble mortals know.
And lastly, quit with the flaming guys.
The thread is not about who can det mines, the thread is about the 'abuse' of mines in certain situations.
Regards,
Savant
PS: I'm not sure if shutting down the S&I would be that good an idea. Right now it seems to be one of the few things holding people to wait for the next patch. As you can see by the lack of decorum in many of the posts of late, some people are getting frustrated by the wait.
Played in tourney mode lately coil? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The last few posters on this thread have all succumb to posting 'straw man' fallacies
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Straw man fallacies you say? You mean like this one?:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Frankly if I'm a gorge I don't have 10 minutes to waste trying to figure out the 'magic spot' on a mine when people are marching on the hive.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your exaggerated and missrepresented position of gorges spending 10 minutes attempting to detonate a mine. And that pulling it off requires some sort of hocus pocus when i have clearly demonstrated how any gorge who knows what they are doing can immediately detonate any mine at will. There's your straw man.
To attack your initial statement (mines are too powerful when used offensively) i'd actually want some sort of argument supporting your statement to comment on... unfortunely it doesn't exist. We can see what you're attempting to say:
<i>Mines <b>can</b> be used offensively (Insert example) thus i think they should be changed to prevent their offensive use.</i>
This is the mines segment of your post compressed into a sentance. You threw in a few words such as "exploitable" and "(not) intended" to add a little bit of omg h4x flavour to it, but when you boil it down you're suggesting that offensive mining is an <i>improper</i> use of mines, and that is your reason for wanting them removed. 2 questions... who gives you almighty "This is not the way it is meant to be" powers? And since when has there ever been a "way it was meant to be"?
Offensive mining is an original and inventive use of available tools. Use my wording instead of your wording and suddenly the whole thing flips on its head doesn't it. You can call it <i>improper</i> or <i>exploitable</i>. Or you can call it <i>Inventive</i> and <i>ingenious</i>. Frankly i think the only difference is which team you are playing on at the time.
So tell me, why does this inventive and ingenious use of an available marine tool need to be removed? Mining the entrances to hives? I've just demonstrated how you can destroy these mines easily using your friendly neighbourhood gorge - easily to the point of being able to pop your head around a corner, det a mine that marines are standing next to, and then pop back into hiding. Considering the marines actually have to get to your hive and sit there mining it, it surely isnt too much trouble to expect you to have a gorge somewhere in the vicinity of your hive.
Marines mining the floor as you attack them? Pretty inventive if you ask me, how about you run round the corner and wait for him to move off his mine patch. Unless the spot he is mining is in a location he is trying to defend, in which case its defensive mining and there is no difference between what he is doing and what people have been doing with mines since the dawn of NS. With FF off, heading into a mine field while fighting a skulk is common sense.
Mining a vent as you shoot at a hive from inside it with a JP/HMG? You've got your gorge again, exploding 3 mines in the face of the JPer who laid them is sure to give him a bit of a shock. You should have lerks by this point for ranged defence which does not require you to go through the vent in order to shoot him, additionally you can heal spray the hive repeatedly. Because firing from a vent ensures a marine will be a good distance from the hive, making the spread of his HMG all the more innefficient, slow damage due to shots lost through spread = easy healing.
All quite inventive tactics, mostly they have little or no place in clan play because there are much more effective ways of winning a game. But if a marine team who have clearly walked all over you wants to have some fun with mines then i'm sure they'll go right ahead.
Here's a tip: If you want to get to the heart of marine advantages vs. aliens, try looking at the early game pre-carapace combat advantage, and the vulnerability of alien assets at this point which allow a marine team to maintain their advantage. Marine strength isnt in their ability to drop mines in a circle and stand in the middle. Its in their ability to kill their way in a group to the hive, kill gorges and cripple alien tech before it gets a chance to get going, to keep the aliens in a perpetual early game where the marines dominate. Its in their large starting res pool and flexible tech tree which gives them a wide variety of fast tech/expand options, in comparison to aliens who have a slow start and a very rigid tech tree.
Complaining about every individual little thing which you think was the cause of your loss is what's missing the point. From jetpacks to mines everything that kills you is the next overpowered super weapon. The advantage the marine team has over the alien team is deeply routed in the play mechanics, its not in the cost of mines or the FPS dependancy of the jetpack, or in the **** bunnyhopping. Jetpack rushes are effective because of 2 things: the marines early game advantage that allows them to pressure, contain and delay the alien team. And their flexible tech tree that allows them to tech easily. If prior to the JPs being dropped you are not able to make a serious impression on the aliens, then any win you take from this game is most likely snatching victory from the jaws of defeat against an alien side who did not take the necessary action to defend against you. When we "JP rush" another team we control (or attempt to control) the game from the outset, we're in their hive, we're hunting their gorges and we're killing their res towers. Its the marine early game advantage that allows us to do this. When JPs are dropped they usually wrap up a game that we have controlled for some time.
If your marine team has to cower in its base while you tech then you are playing an alien side that is significantly better than you. JP rushes only win from this situation if the aliens are careless, such as a pub team. Every JP rushing team we have played against that has not attempted to pressure us we have beaten, because with free map control we have early carapace, multiple res nodes and the freedom to harrass marine res and tech structures at will.
A marine team can and should be offensive throughout the early game, they have the strength to prevent/delay alien tech and this is what gives them an advantage. NS is all early game, and the marines are the masters of the early game.
I agree with using the word 'inventive' rather than 'exploit' in this case - it can be quite funny to see marines bunnyhopping and laying a defensive mine circle only for gorge spit to blow the mines up...
I've been seeing mines used more and more lately - people are beginning to see just how good they can be. however, many people are taking it too far and losing their team the game by wasting 50-odd res on mine packs right at the start... just keep a lid on the number of mines you use people!
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It hits no worse or better if you are close, which could indicate the algorithm covering the damage is not a cone fire, but a true random number thing.
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I thought this too untill i tested it a little. It seems from my JPing tests that there is some sort of relationship between how you dodge and wether you are hit or not, it's just very very innaccurate and hard to know anything for sure. It's possible to stand still infront of an OC and take no damage for 3-4 shots, but you can fly past and and take a hit. However over a period it seems that dodging around the OC does reduce the number of times it will hit you. I would predict a hitscan weapon, as you said, with a meaningless visual projectile glob, and a random firing cone that is extremely wide. Perhaps the hitscan "bullet" is also very wide which would make its effectiveness at range a little more plausible. But i still can't explain how it can sometimes miss from point blank range unless some shots are actually deemed "duds" and not fired.
I really don't like the behaviour of either races towers because they are seemingly very chance-orientated. I'm sure everyone has suffered from lucky OC syndrome once in a while. You go to hurdle a wall you've jumped 10 times before with no damage, and this time for some unknown reason it decides to insta-gib you. I would much prefer towers that were highly accurate, but did a steady stream of small damage over time. The idea being that you have roughly the same time to live when standing infront of one as you currently do, but results dont vary nearly as much. Any way of implementing that and still keeping some behaviour that allows you to 'dodge' towers to a limited degree would be welcome.
But yeah, I think OC's are hitscan too. Because I've watched myself die after testing it, because sometimes OC's can hit a flying well JP'er from a fair distance, and sometimes they seem to miss near-pointblank HMG'ers.
Bit too luck based, as it doesn't take into account your movement.
I won't dignify Savant's response with a response of my own, Teo has said it all and said it very well.
I maintain that mines are perfectly well balanced at present.
[Conjecture]
The fact that they can be easily detonated by fades won't affect anything in 1.1 AFAIK, as the fade's 1 and 2 hive abilities will be swapped around, so at one hive, fades will be able to blink and swipe. That won't stop them just being able to run over multiple mines then run off for healing of course.[/Conjecture]
Anyways, I have work to do and a server to set up.
Roo
(don't get me started on long words <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->)
No, that was a satirical exaggeration. One would think that would be obvious.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To attack your initial statement (mines are too powerful when used offensively) i'd actually want some sort of argument supporting your statement to comment on... unfortunately it doesn't exist. We can see what you're attempting to say:
<i>Mines can be used offensively (Insert example) thus i think they should be changed to prevent their offensive use.</i>
This is the mines segment of your post compressed into a sentance.<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>[sic]</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I fully supported my arguement. The fact that you disagree with my point of view does not magically lessen my statements.
I don't think they should prevent mines from being used offensively, but it should be EXTREMELY costly to do so. This is where our points of view differs. I believe that mines were never put in the game as an offensive weapon and as such should not ideally be used as such.
You are more an 'anything goes' person and so long as you can use your various 'exploits' then you feel that it is up to the OTHER person to change to play on YOUR terms instead of balancing the game so people play on an even footing. This is where you and I disagree.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Offensive mining is an original and inventive use of available tools. Use my wording instead of your wording and suddenly the whole thing flips on its head doesn't it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not really. You want to call it "original and inventive"...? OK. Yuno what else I found 'original and inventive'? The alien to marine 'skin hack' (as it came to be known) where a player used a certain game function to end up as a marine on the alien team. Quite an ingenious use of the game interface, don't you think?
Oh, but it was removed from the game. Why? It matched your criteria. It was an ORIGINAL and INVENTIVE use of the available tools was it not? So why was it considered 'bad' and this mine issue is considered 'good'?
Two words, BALANCE and GAMEPLAY. Does offensive mining provide enhanced balance and gameplay to the game, or does it DETRACT from balance and gameplay. My belief is that it does the latter.
[skipping more straw man arguments where you try and justify mine placement based on the ability to destroy mines, which is NOT the point of this discussion.]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Complaining about every individual little thing which you think was the cause of your loss is what's missing the point. From jetpacks to mines everything that kills you is the next overpowered super weapon. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Frankly I don't seem to be the one complaining here. The people who object WITHOUT EVEN CONSIDERING the argument are the complainers here. I can respect those who disagree, but at least toss up some semblance of an arguement to back it up.
Your statement above is also extremely flawed. You seem to suggest that I somehow complain about "every little thing" that causes me a loss when in fact, you don't know me or how I have 'lost' games. If you read my first message you would see I was playing ON THE MARINE TEAM when I saw the abuse of mines, and the alien team actually ended up WINNING the game in which I saw the questionable tactics. That sorta blows your argument right out of the water now doesn't it? You really should read the messages of the people you are replying to.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS is all early game, and the marines are the masters of the early game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmmm, interesting considering that Flayra has said that he felt that aliens were supposed to be 'more powerful' in the early game. Fast speed and a powerful bite. The only time that these really come into play is in the early stages of the game. Once marines tech up (be it JP or HA etc) and move out, the early game advantage is lost. Skulks become a nuisance and easily killed with HMGs. (10 bullets or less kill them - even with level 3 carapace)
Marines were never intended to 'own' the map from the start. Be it the slow <b>native</b> (IE non bunny hop) movement speed compared to skulks, or the bite damage that can kill a marine in two chomps, marines were never meant to 'own' the early game. The resource economy itself is an indication of this, given the fact the aliens need 3-4 res nodes to put up a reasonable defence, while marines could do the same with 2. (yes I know, being addressed in 1.1 - I'm talking about now)
Frankly I don't think EITHER team should be 'master' of the early game since any one team that is the 'master' likely will have some kind of advantage. Perhaps this is where we differ. I don't believe that all the coding that went into NS was done so the games would end in 10 minutes with the majority of it not seeing the light of day. I believe that games should be 30-45 minutes long, and should see advanced weapons and evolutions on BOTH sides.
Then again, I've always been more interested in gameplay over 'winning'. I'd sooner lose a good game than win an unbalanced game any day.
Regards,
Savant