humbabaThat Exciting Tales From the Frontline GuyJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 86Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Richard_of_Richardland is Pimpy reincarnated. I'm gonna be blunt. Playtesting is fun. If it wasn't fun, what kind of a game would Flay have? But it is fun like the realationship with a beautiful but cruel girl. She flaunts all her pretty prettiness and has nice shottys (I dunno) and is a whole lot of fun to er . . .play, but she abruptly snubs you (errors), demanding your time (We gotta playtest as much as we can, not that we mind), and well . . .coem to think of it. Bad analogy. <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo--> I hope y'all got the point, I was just inspired by the Chef, thats all. Honestly though. Playtesting is emotional in that it can be frustrating and demanding, but NS is god and not a night goes by thta I dont have a shotty in my dreams <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo--> (really). My advice is to provide as much to the community as possible and spread the word to as many people as possible.
as ken pointed out, open betas tend to result in chaos. Imagine you're Flayra. Open beta with 2000 crazed beta tester screaming at you like rabid monkies all yelling about the same bugs and when is it done when is XX feature in why doestn xx work OH GOD I CANT TAKE THE PRESSURE
I agree with richard on some of his points, mods really are less fun after testing. Also having an 'open' beta test instantly makes people assume the mod is finished and complain about the bugs and shout at the team to fix them.
But please don't make us DC testers out to be not up to scratch or brown nosers. ##### weapons are very hard to detect as testers are usually chosen as responsible people who are unlikely to go and ##### guns. Makes it very hard to find unbalanced guns <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->
From my persepctive, having been a game developer before and now testing this version of NS, I would say that what most people don't uunderstand is that an open beta is not a beta at all. Little or no feedback from those things ever make it back to the deveopers and rarely make it into the game. An open beta is really just a nice way of saying publicity stunt.
Beta for a product is defined as all of the features in and zero known bugs. Alpha is defined as all features implemented, but not necessarily no bugs. Right now it is very safe to say that NS is not in Beta, and it is pushing it to say it is in Alpha(although it is getting close to that in my opinion).
When all is said and done, the game belongs to the developers, especially when they are going to be giving it away for free. If you trust them to develop it, you have to trust them to filter people into playing it at the speed they are comfortable with, and you have to let them open it up for public consumption when they are ready as well. That being said, I really think this is a fantastic mod that a ton of great effort has been put into by its dev team as well as the supportive fan base.
In the end I know they are listening to every single one of you and I am confident that most everyone will be very happy, if not ecstatic, with the outcome. Not sure why I even posted this, but I felt like some of these things needed to be said.
I thought alpha was when just 1 or 2 people, primarily the devloeper(s) themselves were testing, and beta was when it is distributed to testers to be testing. (or maybe my computing course sucks.)
I had the understanding that a beta can lack all the features off the final product, and that it is only feature locked when it gets to the release candidate stage which is definately not for adding and testing features but for bug fixing only.
It is not pushing it to say NS is alpha because pre-alpha it doesn't even run properly and certainly wouldn't be distributed to others for testing until alpha.
However I agree with the open betas not being betas at all. In the bast betas had to be distibuted to people who requested it via post on CDs or floppies.
Now, with the web, game companies can save lots of money by posting their software on the web and letting people who wish to download it themselves, which costs bandwidth costs but many will have a website running anyway.
This kind of open beta is fine for applications, because they nearly always capture some kind of neiche. You aren't going to be put off winzip just because a previous beta you tried was buggy.
With games however the first impression and how fun it is to play at first makes all the difference to your opinion, and people are much more closed-minded when it comes to games, if you dind't like one version it's safe to assume you aren't going to like it after they patch it.
This is a shame, because it may have only been an overall feeling of dislike, caused by a few bugs that get fixed, but because it just felt like the game itself wasn't fun meant the person dind't give it a 2nd try.
This, I think, is why game companies should be much more careful about beta testing, and if I were developing a game I would surround the beta with a lot more security than the way most betas are treated at the moment, I am sure if I used p2p programs you could probably find the latest warcraft3 beta or whatever on there.
Despite the apparent greater costs, I would still be tempted as a developer to mail CDs to the clients, and have some sort of trace so it could be found out who was causing a leak if there was one.
realityisdeadEmployed by Raven Software after making ns_nothingJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 94Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Well lets not get in a spat over exact wording here. I'm assuming Jon knows what he's talking about...
Both richard and Jon have very good points though, listen to them. Someone asked at the beginning of this topic if my opinion would be any different if I were not on the playtesting team. Again, no it wouldn't. My opinion would be the same: Public "Betas" (or whatever the hell you want to call them, it's really unimportant for something like a simple discussion) are pointless.
I'd simply be burning for a chance to get in on the playtesting... not that it become freely public in its current state.
Is it a common misconception that the team has everything done, and they're just hiding it from all but a few members? If so, it honestly is not the case. When everything is done, playable, balanced, and fun... then they'll release it. That's just it though: not everything is... done.
Another thing to remember: we're taking a lot of feedback at this stage, instead of taking it in AFTER an open beta. We probably would have a feature-complete game right now, if we didn't iterate and think about how to improve things, and listen to people. So when we DO get to beta, it's going to be a lot more solid then many games at the beta stage.
i like games that take there time (like yours) and iron out all the big bugs so its alot of fun when its out, plus it saves u lot haveing 10,000 threads on this fourm about the same bug <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
While we're discussing beta, etc, how much is left to go in the development? What models are going to be redone/skinned? How are the sounds coming along? Is the balance working out alright? Are you happy with the pace?
Just curious, really. And bored. I'm curious, and bored...
Comments
Honestly though. Playtesting is emotional in that it can be frustrating and demanding, but NS is god and not a night goes by thta I dont have a shotty in my dreams <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo--> (really). My advice is to provide as much to the community as possible and spread the word to as many people as possible.
<!--EDIT|humbaba|June 02 2002,21:49-->
Then the world implodes.
Thats why it's private testing.
But please don't make us DC testers out to be not up to scratch or brown nosers. ##### weapons are very hard to detect as testers are usually chosen as responsible people who are unlikely to go and ##### guns.
Makes it very hard to find unbalanced guns <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->
Beta for a product is defined as all of the features in and zero known bugs. Alpha is defined as all features implemented, but not necessarily no bugs. Right now it is very safe to say that NS is not in Beta, and it is pushing it to say it is in Alpha(although it is getting close to that in my opinion).
When all is said and done, the game belongs to the developers, especially when they are going to be giving it away for free. If you trust them to develop it, you have to trust them to filter people into playing it at the speed they are comfortable with, and you have to let them open it up for public consumption when they are ready as well. That being said, I really think this is a fantastic mod that a ton of great effort has been put into by its dev team as well as the supportive fan base.
In the end I know they are listening to every single one of you and I am confident that most everyone will be very happy, if not ecstatic, with the outcome. Not sure why I even posted this, but I felt like some of these things needed to be said.
See you in the game soon,
Jon
I had the understanding that a beta can lack all the features off the final product, and that it is only feature locked when it gets to the release candidate stage which is definately not for adding and testing features but for bug fixing only.
It is not pushing it to say NS is alpha because pre-alpha it doesn't even run properly and certainly wouldn't be distributed to others for testing until alpha.
However I agree with the open betas not being betas at all.
In the bast betas had to be distibuted to people who requested it via post on CDs or floppies.
Now, with the web, game companies can save lots of money by posting their software on the web and letting people who wish to download it themselves, which costs bandwidth costs but many will have a website running anyway.
This kind of open beta is fine for applications, because they nearly always capture some kind of neiche. You aren't going to be put off winzip just because a previous beta you tried was buggy.
With games however the first impression and how fun it is to play at first makes all the difference to your opinion, and people are much more closed-minded when it comes to games, if you dind't like one version it's safe to assume you aren't going to like it after they patch it.
This is a shame, because it may have only been an overall feeling of dislike, caused by a few bugs that get fixed, but because it just felt like the game itself wasn't fun meant the person dind't give it a 2nd try.
This, I think, is why game companies should be much more careful about beta testing, and if I were developing a game I would surround the beta with a lot more security than the way most betas are treated at the moment, I am sure if I used p2p programs you could probably find the latest warcraft3 beta or whatever on there.
Despite the apparent greater costs, I would still be tempted as a developer to mail CDs to the clients, and have some sort of trace so it could be found out who was causing a leak if there was one.
Both richard and Jon have very good points though, listen to them. Someone asked at the beginning of this topic if my opinion would be any different if I were not on the playtesting team. Again, no it wouldn't. My opinion would be the same: Public "Betas" (or whatever the hell you want to call them, it's really unimportant for something like a simple discussion) are pointless.
I'd simply be burning for a chance to get in on the playtesting... not that it become freely public in its current state.
Is it a common misconception that the team has everything done, and they're just hiding it from all but a few members? If so, it honestly is not the case. When everything is done, playable, balanced, and fun... then they'll release it. That's just it though: not everything is... done.
<!--EDIT|ken20banks|June 04 2002,17:19-->
Just curious, really. And bored. I'm curious, and bored...
--F3rret