Improving My Skills As A Comm
Scinet
Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12489Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12489Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Help me (and others?) by analyzing this</div> I've been reading this forum for quite a while trying to pick up useful tactics and overall strategies to help me win more games as a comm. To be honest, I rarely lose a game and when I do it most of the time has something to do with either my stubbornness (like trying to capture Reactor Room despite numerous failed attempts) or with the team completely disregarding any given orders. I've noticed, however, that my overall strategy seems a bit stiff and could use some improvement and that's why I'm asking for the help of you kind and experienced comms out there.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(Short note: I despise JP or IP rushes and relocate only when it becomes necessary to ensure the team's survival, so please do not suggest either strat in this thread.) </span>
For example, let's take a look at a 8vs8 game I commed on ns_eclipse last night. If you don't want to read through all of this but are still interested, skip down to the "questions" part.
When the game begins, I tend to always build 2xIP, Obs, and Armoury. I ordered all marines to stay in base until Obs is up, which they did. Then I scanned the hives, starting with Eclipse and then moving to CC. Since both were empty, Maint had to be the aliens' starting point. I ordered one marine to stay in base and the rest to move towards Triad. From the group moving to triad I split off 2 marines to Station Access to build a RT there. For a while we all stood still and waited for more res. Then I placed the RT in Triad and told the marines there to move towards Eclipse. I also gave 2 packs of mines to the guy guarding the base.
For some reason the marine task forces fragmented here, since only one marine ended up in Eclipse. I gave him a PG and built another to base, but before the Ec PG went up, a single skulk walked in and bit the poor marine and the gate in half, a most annoying setback. For a moment all seemed somewhat messy until I noticed 3 marines leaving the base and moving down the Station Access ramp. I quickly ordered them to move to Eclipse and get a PG up. They complied and I spent res on the PG, RT and a TF there. After the TF was up I waited for more res to come so I could put some turrets there.
Meanwhile my RT at Station Access was nearly destroyed by skulks who were driven away by the efforts of a heroic marine who just happened to pass the RT on his way somewhere. Unfortunately a second wave of skulks smashed both the marine and the RT soon after that. Then they decided to snack on the Triad RT. I managed to save it a few times by sending marines from Ec (I was still building the Ec turrets) to hold it. Then I sent 2 marines to rebuild the Station Acces RT and left one of them to guard it so it wouldn't get smashed again. The logic behind this was that I didn't want to spend res on TF there and the skulks seemed to attack the Triad RT only if the Station Access one was already destroyed.
At this point I scanned the hives again and noticed that we were late. The CC hive was already up and all siege positions around it were seeded with OCs. Realizing that I wasn't up against a stupid gorge I built an Arms lab and a Proto lab. Unfortunately I wasn't sure what I could do to stop the inevitable fades.
At this point one marine informed me that he could get to Keyhole undetected. I told him to team up with someone and try there. I also put JPs on research to help them bound over OCs at Horseshoe and some other locations should they need to. I also realised I could spare 35 res to upgrade the Armoury. When the team of 2 sneakers told me they had arrived in Keyhole, I gave them a TF and upgraded it immediately (to avoid the annoying PG bug). Then I placed a PG there and told the entire team to defend the position at all costs. Resources trickled in slowly so I first set up 2 sieges and only then started getting turrets up. By this point Arms lab had provided the team with weapons lvl1 and armour lvl1. Unfortunately the Keyhole position drew some unwanted attention when one of the marines decided to walk into the Maint hive and the other siege started firing before the other was built and no turrets were yet in place.
Fortunately I managed to build 3 turrets before the first aliens appeared, but to my horror I realised this wasn't going to be a picnic skulk rush. One fade rushed into the position via South Loop and started thumping the marines. At this point I wasn't sure if lvl1 armour and the just-completed lvl2 weapons would hold the entire alien team in bay, but armed with JPs and two HMGs my team surprised me by completely obliterating the incoming alien horde. By this time the sieges had finished the hive but a massive fight was developing at Keyhole for the alien team had realised that the entire outcome of the game would depend on wheter we were allowed to hold that position, or so it seemed.
For a while things looked like a stalemate but since my team was holding their own with LMGs I had enough res to finally research HA and start saving for HA/HMG/Welder marines. The aliens did try to rebuild the Maint hive but since they couldn't get the sieges down, their efforts were wasted.
When our team finally declared themselves the sole owners of Keyhole, we managed to set up the Horseshoe, Maint and South Loop res towers and after that quickly crushed the last remaining hive.
<b>Questions:</b>
1. Is the build order 2xIP, Obs, Armoury effective or should I consider something else?
2. Is it good or bad to leave the RTs unturreted, perhaps undefended or guarded by a single marine a good idea?
3. I did not build the RT at Sub-Juction since I consider it hard to defend against aliens coming from CC. Was this a good choice?
4. I usually build Arms Lab only after securing a hive (PG, TF and some turrets) and building 1 or 2 (possibly 3) RTs. Should I pass on the hive defense and save for the Arms Lab instead?
5. The above game is a typical example of the strategies I employ. I tend to lock down one hive, then either rush and lock down a second hive or siege it to oblivion if I've been tardy in the beginning of the round. Is there some other, more optimal way to deal with the alien invasion? Perhaps by leaving the hives alone and concentrate on grabbing RTs instead?
Those are all the questions that came to my mind. Please feel free to teach, share your secrets, point out my shortcomings and spelling errors or smack me in the head with a shovel for making you read this long drivel.
Thank you for your time,
[BlueRazor] Scinet
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(Short note: I despise JP or IP rushes and relocate only when it becomes necessary to ensure the team's survival, so please do not suggest either strat in this thread.) </span>
For example, let's take a look at a 8vs8 game I commed on ns_eclipse last night. If you don't want to read through all of this but are still interested, skip down to the "questions" part.
When the game begins, I tend to always build 2xIP, Obs, and Armoury. I ordered all marines to stay in base until Obs is up, which they did. Then I scanned the hives, starting with Eclipse and then moving to CC. Since both were empty, Maint had to be the aliens' starting point. I ordered one marine to stay in base and the rest to move towards Triad. From the group moving to triad I split off 2 marines to Station Access to build a RT there. For a while we all stood still and waited for more res. Then I placed the RT in Triad and told the marines there to move towards Eclipse. I also gave 2 packs of mines to the guy guarding the base.
For some reason the marine task forces fragmented here, since only one marine ended up in Eclipse. I gave him a PG and built another to base, but before the Ec PG went up, a single skulk walked in and bit the poor marine and the gate in half, a most annoying setback. For a moment all seemed somewhat messy until I noticed 3 marines leaving the base and moving down the Station Access ramp. I quickly ordered them to move to Eclipse and get a PG up. They complied and I spent res on the PG, RT and a TF there. After the TF was up I waited for more res to come so I could put some turrets there.
Meanwhile my RT at Station Access was nearly destroyed by skulks who were driven away by the efforts of a heroic marine who just happened to pass the RT on his way somewhere. Unfortunately a second wave of skulks smashed both the marine and the RT soon after that. Then they decided to snack on the Triad RT. I managed to save it a few times by sending marines from Ec (I was still building the Ec turrets) to hold it. Then I sent 2 marines to rebuild the Station Acces RT and left one of them to guard it so it wouldn't get smashed again. The logic behind this was that I didn't want to spend res on TF there and the skulks seemed to attack the Triad RT only if the Station Access one was already destroyed.
At this point I scanned the hives again and noticed that we were late. The CC hive was already up and all siege positions around it were seeded with OCs. Realizing that I wasn't up against a stupid gorge I built an Arms lab and a Proto lab. Unfortunately I wasn't sure what I could do to stop the inevitable fades.
At this point one marine informed me that he could get to Keyhole undetected. I told him to team up with someone and try there. I also put JPs on research to help them bound over OCs at Horseshoe and some other locations should they need to. I also realised I could spare 35 res to upgrade the Armoury. When the team of 2 sneakers told me they had arrived in Keyhole, I gave them a TF and upgraded it immediately (to avoid the annoying PG bug). Then I placed a PG there and told the entire team to defend the position at all costs. Resources trickled in slowly so I first set up 2 sieges and only then started getting turrets up. By this point Arms lab had provided the team with weapons lvl1 and armour lvl1. Unfortunately the Keyhole position drew some unwanted attention when one of the marines decided to walk into the Maint hive and the other siege started firing before the other was built and no turrets were yet in place.
Fortunately I managed to build 3 turrets before the first aliens appeared, but to my horror I realised this wasn't going to be a picnic skulk rush. One fade rushed into the position via South Loop and started thumping the marines. At this point I wasn't sure if lvl1 armour and the just-completed lvl2 weapons would hold the entire alien team in bay, but armed with JPs and two HMGs my team surprised me by completely obliterating the incoming alien horde. By this time the sieges had finished the hive but a massive fight was developing at Keyhole for the alien team had realised that the entire outcome of the game would depend on wheter we were allowed to hold that position, or so it seemed.
For a while things looked like a stalemate but since my team was holding their own with LMGs I had enough res to finally research HA and start saving for HA/HMG/Welder marines. The aliens did try to rebuild the Maint hive but since they couldn't get the sieges down, their efforts were wasted.
When our team finally declared themselves the sole owners of Keyhole, we managed to set up the Horseshoe, Maint and South Loop res towers and after that quickly crushed the last remaining hive.
<b>Questions:</b>
1. Is the build order 2xIP, Obs, Armoury effective or should I consider something else?
2. Is it good or bad to leave the RTs unturreted, perhaps undefended or guarded by a single marine a good idea?
3. I did not build the RT at Sub-Juction since I consider it hard to defend against aliens coming from CC. Was this a good choice?
4. I usually build Arms Lab only after securing a hive (PG, TF and some turrets) and building 1 or 2 (possibly 3) RTs. Should I pass on the hive defense and save for the Arms Lab instead?
5. The above game is a typical example of the strategies I employ. I tend to lock down one hive, then either rush and lock down a second hive or siege it to oblivion if I've been tardy in the beginning of the round. Is there some other, more optimal way to deal with the alien invasion? Perhaps by leaving the hives alone and concentrate on grabbing RTs instead?
Those are all the questions that came to my mind. Please feel free to teach, share your secrets, point out my shortcomings and spelling errors or smack me in the head with a shovel for making you read this long drivel.
Thank you for your time,
[BlueRazor] Scinet
Comments
1. Is the build order 2xIP, Obs, Armoury effective or should I consider something else?
2. Is it good or bad to leave the RTs unturreted, perhaps undefended or guarded by a single marine a good idea?
3. I did not build the RT at Sub-Juction since I consider it hard to defend against aliens coming from CC. Was this a good choice?
4. I usually build Arms Lab only after securing a hive (PG, TF and some turrets) and building 1 or 2 (possibly 3) RTs. Should I pass on the hive defense and save for the Arms Lab instead?
5. The above game is a typical example of the strategies I employ. I tend to lock down one hive, then either rush and lock down a second hive or siege it to oblivion if I've been tardy in the beginning of the round. Is there some other, more optimal way to deal with the alien invasion? Perhaps by leaving the hives alone and concentrate on grabbing RTs instead?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Try using a single IP if your team isnt totally unclanned
2. Try to see the maps more tactically and not purely for the RT's. For example on Eclipse, if the aliens start in Eclipse hive, leave 2-3 marines at Station RT. They can block all incoming from triad and hold station rt. This leaves the rest of your team to cap lotsa rt pretty match unattacked until the aliens get frustrated and go the long way <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Seeing it from a marines perspective wiill help you decide on places to do this. Station RT has a big corridor leading to it from the 2 oncoming directions which makes the skulks fodder.
3. Subjunction rt is very hard to keep alive if aliens have CC.. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
4. My build order is usually IP/Armory/Arms lab Level up AR, sentrys suck without any grades anyway..
5. Playing economy is more fun usually, go for lvl 3 weaps/ar ha hmg on the larger maps, eclipse is a little hard to pull it off since the res is so scattered.
Like others have said, 2 IP's are not really necessary at the beginning. I usually just build one, then wait until either aliens get carapace or a lot of marines die at once. Usually those two happen at the same time. Nowadays I never ever build an Obs that early. Th eobs is the first starget for skulks, it has almost no hitpoints, and MT costs a small fortune. I usually build 1 IP, armory and 2 RT's with my 100 res, and spend the rest on mines for those structures.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. Is it good or bad to leave the RTs unturreted, perhaps undefended or guarded by a single marine a good idea?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I only ever turret RT's if they happen to be in a location I am dead-set on holding for other reasons. RR and Cargo on tanith are examples, if you turret both those you make it very hard for the bugs to move around. I go for the mines and marines combination, which is much more effective anyway. 1-2 packs of mines at each RT, and some marines circling the area.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. I did not build the RT at Sub-Juction since I consider it hard to defend against aliens coming from CC. Was this a good choice?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PSJ is very hard to hold, yes, but I usually try. If you get a load of mines on the ground there you have once again cut off a vital travel-route for the bugs. Sometimes I build an armory there to make it easier to re-supply the mine field. Still, if you don't hold the area properly (as in have at least 3 marines there) I wouldn't bother building (unless aliens are locked down and I am just res.hunting).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4. I usually build Arms Lab only after securing a hive (PG, TF and some turrets) and building 1 or 2 (possibly 3) RTs. Should I pass on the hive defense and save for the Arms Lab instead?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well here's the big difference. I go for arms lab a lot faster. I usually build it way before I get an Obs up. I'd rather have marines with 1/1 arm/weps then MT when fighting carapaced skulks. Getting armslab upgrades early ensures you don't lose the fighting edge. I'd rather have armor/weps upgrades then MT myself when playing marine, so I tend to give that. Headphones make up for lack of MT (actually better since you can hear what is behind you as well. Also, turrets without upgrades are very weak against skulks so ´the static defense (if any) will suffer without it as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5. The above game is a typical example of the strategies I employ. I tend to lock down one hive, then either rush and lock down a second hive or siege it to oblivion if I've been tardy in the beginning of the round. Is there some other, more optimal way to deal with the alien invasion? Perhaps by leaving the hives alone and concentrate on grabbing RTs instead?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've done a whole lot of experimenting on unwitting teams. My conclusion is that Aliens will win almost exclusively if they:
1. Get two hives
2. Have a decent amount of res.
A weak attempt at 2-hive lockdown usually ends with aliens getting two hives while having an ENORMOUS amount of res (because of the delay), this together with your res mostly being spent on defending the hives and the fact that you probably don't have many RT's to begin with, focusing on hives and all, means that if they get the 2:nd hive your troops are nowhere near prepared for it.
The sad thing is that 2:hive aliens WILL beat Marines if they have enough resources (ie: they can afford to get fades killed). Sooner or later they WILL start using combos (usually the first attack is mainly fades). I have had teams with 3/3 upgrades HA/JP's and HMG/GL's lose to 2:hive aliens numerous times. The simple "fact" (according to me that is) is that a big group of combo aliens are stronger then the marine counterpart. Here's how it works:
Marines have (for example): 8 HA, 6 HMG's 2 GL's.
Aliens have 5 Fades, 1-2 lerks, 1-2 gorges.
The umbra basically makes the HMG's useless. With the big anount of fades acid rockets will take down the armour so quick that several (if not all!) marines with be constantly welding or screaming to be welded. 5 fades firing volleys of 4 acid rockets (20 acid rockets per volley) while standing in umbra, getting healed by a gorge and (this is the worst part) having a gorge spray web around the immobile HA's will kill you. Sure, GL's are effective against umbra but a good lerk sprays the umbra and gets out in time to avoid the nades. Fades can take several nades without dying, and chances are that in the big group, most of the grenades are either bouncing off teammates or falling too short/long to be effective. That is, if the GL's aren't busy welding. Add a rabid skulk to the mix, drawing attention, and you usually end up with a pile of dead marines and almost 500 res down the drain.
My analysis is that it is easier for aliens to maximise the benefits of teamwork because their tasks are so specific. The lerks ONLY have to keep the umbra up, the fades ONLY have to spam acid rockets, the gorges ONLY have to either web or heal. The marines usually end up having either too mahy or too few people welding and generally people shooting eachother.
In this situation I have now started to use "dedicated welders". I think that is thee best way. Have 3 HA's *only* equipped with welders. Yeah, you'll sacrifice a lot of firepower on the paper, but you'll end up with a more effective unit where people know what to do.
Since this isn't sure to work my conclusion unfortunately is: Prevent the aliens from having 2 hives at any cost. This is really boring because I want to COM games where both sides have potent weapons, but if you want to win, do everything to keep the aliens at 1 hive.
A lockdown is usually inferior here because it focuses to little on resources. I recommend getting enough resources to tech up so you can take out the hive before it goes up (or get their original hive), rather then trying to hold the hive with too few resources.
Oh dear, I'm rambling, will stop now.
1. Is the build order 2xIP, Obs, Armoury effective or should I consider something else?
2. Is it good or bad to leave the RTs unturreted, perhaps undefended or guarded by a single marine a good idea?
3. I did not build the RT at Sub-Juction since I consider it hard to defend against aliens coming from CC. Was this a good choice?
4. I usually build Arms Lab only after securing a hive (PG, TF and some turrets) and building 1 or 2 (possibly 3) RTs. Should I pass on the hive defense and save for the Arms Lab instead?
5. The above game is a typical example of the strategies I employ. I tend to lock down one hive, then either rush and lock down a second hive or siege it to oblivion if I've been tardy in the beginning of the round. Is there some other, more optimal way to deal with the alien invasion? Perhaps by leaving the hives alone and concentrate on grabbing RTs instead?
Those are all the questions that came to my mind. Please feel free to teach, share your secrets, point out my shortcomings and spelling errors or smack me in the head with a shovel for making you read this long drivel.
Thank you for your time,
[BlueRazor] Scinet<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) There is nothing wrong with that start. However, if you know some of the people playing and there are enough good players you can leave off the second IP for later (mabye even puting it in your second base). Generally though I'd go with two, there's nothing worse than having only 2-3 good players and 1-2 of them stuck in a que (most players die eventually, and all can get unlucky). Generally I get two IPs as there are often many players who I don't trust to live all that long. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
2) SuperBOB has it right, but I'll add what he left out. No. If a location contains a res and has no other (or little) strategic value, don't turret it up. It's a waste. In this case you should look for res that are going to have marines pass through, or marines nearby. South Loop <i>would</i> always be good when you have maint, other than the fact that aliens will try anything to push you off it. The reason being that marines will hopefull either be in maint, coming from maint, or be fighting just beyond South Loop, so they would automatically be ready to defend it. Also, if you can, have a mine or two dropped at the back of each rt. It wont kill a good skulk, but it will stop them from hiding behind it, making them an easier kill for a marine.
3) Yes. It's kinda hard to keep it. If you <b>can</b> keep it in this situation, you don't need it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
4) That's not a bad way to go, but if you're looking for more flexability, then SomeBOB's suggestion works perfectly. Usually I prefer to get arms lab after I've expanded too, but it does make it hard on your marines. Note that armor is the best upgrade to get from an early arms lab as lvl1 weps aren't much of an improvement on non-cara skulks.
5) That strategy is typical of <b>most</b> (good) non-rush played games I think. I will say this, always get at least one hive. Get it early and keep it. Most people think 2-hive aliens are so hard because they try to face them with vanilla marines. If you want to go the econ way of victory make sure you have access to the HMG(GL)/HA/welder combo. It is very possible to beat down 2-hive aliens with this combo. In one game I commed late (other comm was ejected), the aliens took all three hives and were beating down our base. Luckily I had time to upgrade so that we had the combo ready just as they started their siege. I had my 3 HA guys (heh, the comm did save, I'll give him that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) push their way down to maint and relocate there. They managed to beat down all opposition, take the hive and secure it. We ended up losing, but all agreed that was a good game and could have gone either way for a moment.
You sound like the kind of comm I like playing under, I can't see anything really wrong with your style. And the post wasn't drivel, I love reading/telling (some might already have noticed) game stories, so I was entertained the whole way through. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you skip the second IP you can afford to get an armor upgrade or motion tracking immediately. Both of which greatly improve the survivability of your marines.
I prefer arms lab upgrades first because a decent pair of headphones gives me about as good information as motion tracking, and headphones don't turn off while building.
Either way, you definately need more emphasis on upgrades.
When the aliens spawn in a hive thats on the end (eclipse or maintenance in this case), consider trying to lockdown the center hive (comp core), rather than the farthest (eclipse in your example).
If you can manage to hold it, it is a great strategic benefit, because the aliens will try very hard to stop you. Why is it good for the aliens to try very hard to kill that base? Because if they are all rushing comp core, there will be less pressure on your res nodes at triad, eclipse, station access, and power sub junction. Also the gorge will be unhappy that you are so close to where he wants to be, poor little fatteh will have to walk all the way to eclipse if he wants a hive, far away from reinforcements.
And to paraphrase Stoneburg: 2 hive aliens = t3h w1n
Oh, and that comment about 2-hive aliens beating the bejeezus out of pub marines is very true. It's very rare for the pub marines to have enough teamwork going on to be able to push 2-hive aliens back enough to get into a position from which they can kill a hive.
<b>Questions:</b>
1. Is the build order 2xIP, Obs, Armoury effective or should I consider something else?
2. Is it good or bad to leave the RTs unturreted, perhaps undefended or guarded by a single marine a good idea?
3. I did not build the RT at Sub-Juction since I consider it hard to defend against aliens coming from CC. Was this a good choice?
4. I usually build Arms Lab only after securing a hive (PG, TF and some turrets) and building 1 or 2 (possibly 3) RTs. Should I pass on the hive defense and save for the Arms Lab instead?
5. The above game is a typical example of the strategies I employ. I tend to lock down one hive, then either rush and lock down a second hive or siege it to oblivion if I've been tardy in the beginning of the round. Is there some other, more optimal way to deal with the alien invasion? Perhaps by leaving the hives alone and concentrate on grabbing RTs instead?
Those are all the questions that came to my mind. Please feel free to teach, share your secrets, point out my shortcomings and spelling errors or smack me in the head with a shovel for making you read this long drivel.
Thank you for your time,
[BlueRazor] Scinet <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. If your guys die a lot, get 2 ips. If you get your deaths spread out over time, make do with 1. But make sure base isnt empty. You can make do without observatory if you dont want to phase gate.
2. Dont turret RTs! Unless you occupy the 3-res area Cargo Bay on nothing. I use my marines to guard my RT. EVen better, I have them _PATROL_ my RTs. No need to have two marines camping alone at each their RT if they could patrol between them as a pair.
3. Subjunction is a messy place for marines. Skulk land. I am reluctant to cap that one as well.
4. Get arms lab soon IMO. Forget the observatory at first, buy an IP, an armory. Then get gun upgrades as soon as you have your 2nd nozzle put down. Thne armory upgrades.
5. I tend to try and play the res game. Instead of locking down one hive, I have my marines fight the aliens on the ressources. Low income for aliens means slow hive. I then try and save up for HA welders and HMG. If my guys did well, we can afford a squad of 4 by the time their 2nd hive is done. Then we get a few exciting fade battles and the aliens get a feeling of that the game isnt doomed before we even begun because I am not jp hmg'ing. I make my marines attack one of their hives, and then secure it. I know the aliens now will hurry and try to get the other hive up in the last hive location. I then tell my lads to attack their least defended hive.
I dont siege. Thats another way of doing it.
I would say in your example game you were very lucky (or had good marines) to hold keyhole. A competent alien team should have taken you down. I think what probably happened is you got them in the vulnerable period when they had the second hive up but no res to go fade and teh couple you met were previously gorges. A good alien team would have umbraed keyhole and spammed web everywhere. In that small area around keyhole you would/should have been FUBAR'd withgout GLs and more upgrades.
Theres also two camps on what upgrades to get first with an arms lab, armour or weapons. I usually always go for armour first. The ability to take an extra skulk bite is more important IMO to taking a couple less LMG bullets to kill them. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I find that early game, carapaceless skulks with armour 1 marines means you have a <b>massive</b> combat advantage.
I always have a couple of rules re: taking hives. As soon as a PG goes up in a hive, have a guy go thru and mine it up. When placing TFs I wait till I can afford to drop some turrets immediately after. Theres nothing worse then dropping a TF only for a skulk rush to come in and kill it all before you've got the res to drop turrets. Instead of dropping a TF without the res for turrets, i'd rather create a minefield for my marines to fight off skulks in if I absolutely need some sort of defence.
Otherall though you did well. A lesser commander would have been wasting res and your marines at keyhole wouldn't have been so well equiped/upgraded and died. A commander who can lockdown one hive, get upgrades and take the iniative to attack the other (too many get trapped into defending the hive they've got, whcih inevitably falls) is pretty solid in my book.
GG <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Build an armory in a focal point to attacking a hive, or preventing the aliens from accessing part of a map, and you can have a literal minefield aiding your marines in battle.
For defending resources, you're best to build res towers that are mined, and in the path of your marine's travel.
Phase gates work best if you keep a few mines around them. Going back to having an armory on the front lines, those mines keep them alive longer. In addition, throw a mine or 2 on the base phase so that if an adventurous skulk attempts to come through, you destroy it.
I suggest changing your build order to just the 1 ip, as do most of the other experienced comms. You should make it a point to secure at least 1 res node with your first 100 res. As for an observatory or arms lab first, I let the position my marines are in dictate that. If it's apparent that my marine's already can't shoot when the aliens don't have carapace, well.... you're in trouble. I'd get level 1 armor fast to keep them alive a little longer.
Motion tracking, as useful as it is has no bearing against a good set of headphones on a good marine. The most favorite quote I ever heard from a commander was "I got you guys Motion Tracking!! Why can't you kill them?" The fact that there were skulks rushing in packs, with level 3 carapace and us vanilla marines still had level 0/ level 0 had something to do with it.
I've taken more of a commanding approach of not distributing equipment, but keeping my team upgraded, and constantly attacking. You kill a gorge, you bought a minute. Kill a res node, maybe 2 or 3 minutes more before a potential second hive. And even though some will get a second hive, if you deny the resources, they won't get fades on you for quite a while.
My suggestion is, 1) keep them attacking and holding res nodes. 2) variate with defences. I only use TFs for attacking. 3) upgrade, upgrade, upgrade. 4) equipment such as welders and mines are great. giving random eq such as ha, hmgs, and such are often wasted to rambos and require a massive expenditure to get enough people outfitted to be useful.
Your story about eclipse has a few things that sort of hurt you. I had a friend that has a great quote of "You don't strategically engage your enemy in your base." Have a few guys rush towards their hive to kill oncoming skulks, and even adventurous gorges. While you have the alien team concerned with one part of the map, your res node crew can cover the rest. Have your best shots work on just keeping aliens contained, don't let them contain you.
If you really want to keep the aliens on their toes, keep a constant assault force on the hive. A phase gate at a nearby res node, with armory and mines will keep your marines well set. If necessary, you can pull off a siege to boot.
The last game I commanded, I won with phase gates, and sieges. I lost my upgraded armory, and never had a proto or motion tracking. Just kept the aliens busy at one point where the rest of the crew set up my resources. Multitask, and you'll be set. There's nothing like an entire marine pack leaving one door on eclipse to have a skulk pack enter the other door and obliterate your base.
*EDIT* Damn that's long. Making it look more readable.
Just like the lvl 2 armor is useless against skulks. My order of upgrades:
-lvl 1 armor (always)
-lvl 1 weps (always)
Then I just keep upgrading weapons until the aliens are about to get fades (which shouldn't happen <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->), at which time I immediatly get lvl 2 armor. I only get lvl 3 armor if I have more res then I know what to do with or if I am thinking about sending out a HA squad in the future (timing the armor upgrade to kick in while the HA is engaged is just awesome, suddenly everyone is at 290 armor, this can totally decide the game).
Edit: lvl3 Cara only takes about 2.5 minutes, though im sure you can squeeze lvl2 in about 90 seconds. Weapon upgrades do nothing without the aliens have carapace, but it doesnt take them long to get it unless youre careful so its a nice backup.
What you want to do is decrease the attacking area of the building... limit the directions of attack... To do this...
Always build in the corners into the walls or build the main buildings CLOSE to each other so that there is no opening between...
This is important because what you want to do is limit the attacking skulk to a set area of coverage by the turrets...
It is ESSENTIAL that you are supporting the hive securing team, dropping med packs as needed on them. especially when they are being attacked at a hive location. They need to stay alive long enough to get the pg going.
Once you get three turrets at each hive, give yourself some time by giving mines to your marines and sending them off to mine off the key buildings. Turrets are good, but when used in tandem with mines, it is nearly impossible to do anything. The skulk must move continuously to avoid turret fire, and since you have done the above and have limited the areas where they can attack. Less mines are needed for it to be effective. One pack of mines along with the turrets covering make a costly proposition for any skulks who choose to go after the key buildings.
Periodically scan hive locations. Placement of the buildings are key to giving you adequte coverage and maximizing turret coverage in ratio to the res you spend. You dont want to place your tf straight out in the open, here is the reason why. To give FULL coverage of it... you need at aleast two turrets placed in key locations(this would be a Z formation with the tf in the center of it) Each turret covers two sides of the tf. That means the two turrets total effenciency is 50%. That gives gives one turret coverage on a skulk no matter where he goes. By building in the corner and covering two of the four sides. By building JUST one turret you have effectively done what two turrets would have done. Now if or some reason you HAVE to build out in the open, build the tf and pg as close to each other as possible. Reason is because you close the gap between the two. All you have to protect now is four sides of a rectangle. Using a Z formation with the two turrets you can have 100% fire coverage... But you do want to use the square perimeter to give dual turrets coverage no matter where the skul goes... Anyway, to continue on...
Here is the initial build order and timeline you can follow. This variation can be you have one ip or two in the beginning. Depending on the situation. Two is better than one of course... But, in the beginning you can get away with one ip for a little while and build the second one a little later when you have res you dont know what to do with especially when the hive securing team is on route to secure the hive. I have attempted to incorporate the alien timeline as well... To give you a bit of perspective. This is some guess work and many factors will play a part in the timeline so I have attempted to give you the best picture I can. The alien timeline shifts around two steps back if the com built only one ip. In some cases you will find yourself with extra res sometimes enough for motion while the hive team is on route to secure hive, you can start research then...
1(2) infantry portals - (22)44 res
1 observetory - 25 res
1 armory - 25 res
ISSUE COMMAND - one or two marines stay in base and send the rest to secure hive location
phase gate(BUILD IN MAIN FIRST...) - 25 res
Misc Medpack dropping when hive team under attack - 12 - 16 res(This does vary... But this is a rough estimate)
2nd phase gate( first hive location) - 25 res
resource nod - 22 - You double your intake of res here...
ALIEN - Normally around this time the gorg has the first rt in the works
turret factory - 20
turret - 19 - First Hive
turret - 19 - First Hive
ALIEN - If the gorg is good he will have the first def cham up around here...
ISSUE COMMAND - send hive securing team to next hive order one marine to stay at new hive base location
turret - 19 - First Hive
ALIEN - Gorg will either have put up another def cham or wait for second nod
RECAP - First hive location reasonably secured.... hive team is securing second hive area
OPTIONAL - Upgrade motion if you have enough or build second ip
Misc Medpack dropping - 12- 16(To Hive securing team taking fire)
ALIEN - Gorg will have either started building second nod or die because the marines overran him at the second hive where the second nod usually comes up.
phase gate(second hive location) - 25 res
resourse nod - 22 res
ALIEN - Gorg would have third def cham if he built one nod and two def chams first
turret factory - 20
turret - 19
turret - 19
5 packs Mines - 40( This is a culumative number over around 2 - 3 mins... around two or three packs and more subsequently later...)
turret - 19
Upgrade motion - 45(This is if you already haven't... In most cases you will have 45 as the hive team is securing the next hive...)
Welder - 10(20) - order marine to make repair rounds...
(NOTE*- keep track of hive locations... You may need to upgrade siege before motion in some cases also at this point they will be desperate and will attempt to attack main base... The mines you have passed out will assist with you keeping your main base... two packs is relatively enough to fend off the first rush... pass out more as needed...)
turret - 19 (Reinforce hive one location)
turret - 19 (Reinforce hive two location)
If all goes well you should have the hives in the position to your favor through out the game.
Tips on upgrading. You do want to upgrade weapons first. Reason is because weapon upgrades DO affect how much damage turrets deal out to our alien friends there. However, as mentioned in above posts first level armor and weapons are the first to be research, subsequent after that would have to be ALL weapons upgrades.
I hope this has helped you... It would have been helpful if I incorporated maps and diagram schemes to show placement methods... That would have given everyone a better idea of why placement is KEY to effencient and effective "fire control coverage" on buildings and structures... But, I am sure someone will come along with this with an even better tutorial on building placement and perhaps even a better hive securing technique... maybe someone already has...
What you are attempting is a pre-1.04 strat, when IPs and scanning and phase gates were much cheaper (15 and 1 and 20 respectively, back in the day).
I recommend only building 2 IPs if your team is 7+. With larger teams of course you will need more spawners and furthermore you get more resources to pay for the 2nd IP.
Obs is extremely flexible and still my favorite building even though I might not build it. In the past you could do the <i>real</i> phase rush, which was to phase <i>directly</i> to the alien hive. You can also beacon rush. Or keep your team alive after IPs gone. Or trap an alien push into main, where perhaps several skulks are invading and a gorge is busy building outside or even inside. Spawn all your rines and clean house. Stuff like that. Gotta love the obs.
You may want to practice with friends or in a clan setting or just imagine everything, draw up some plans that cause marines to somehow stumble across your RTs every now and then.
A way to to defend them is to perhaps hold chokepoints, gateways to areas of the map. But with the vent system I don't know if this is feasible for the marine team to attempt. Another way is to push extremely aggressively (my favored style), and threaten the aliens so much that they don't dare to go off and rambo.
Use the early period of the game to get lots of resources and upgrades and perhaps secure a hive. You may then want to secure the second hive after that either by setting a pg there, or by sieging it, if alien defences are heavy.
For you I recommend...Be flexible. If you have an RT that keeps getting attacked...consider turrents or just leaving it to die. Don't be afraid to give up an area if it means the aliens will leave something else open for you to grab when they are not looking. Remember, turrents cost Res...don't build to many or you'll slow down your tech ability and your ability to secure more of the map. In the beginning of the game the only things you really need to defend are the two hives you grab. Rule one...start, grab a res or two quickly...proceed to first hive open. if held to hard immediatly grab the other. Doesn't matter which just take a hive in the first couple minutes...when it's mostly secure immediatly send a team toward the second.
Securing this before the hive is up is critical. For one thing you'll draw pretty much the whole alien team over to defend it. Don't be afraid to set up a seige section outside the hive itself...you'll immediatly secure the whole area against a gorge rush and be able to take down the hive should it go up. This allows you to avoid a costly rush on the hive itself before you can put down a PG or Turrents.
Another rule of thumb...unless you have a very skilled marine..don't send any...even him out alone. always have a couple moving and make sure at least one if not two of them cover the others while they build.
Also...having one marine gaurd something only works against one or two skulks at a time usually...if two many come even Rambo will be taken down. There is strengh in numbers...just make sure the aliens don't do a move from predetor two...Fall in the middle of your horde of marines...and kill them from the inside out. Remember from Aliens...."Alright people don't buunch up"
Just be flexible...watch the game itself...be willing to change your strategy and adapt as the game goes on. most people always have the same 3 moves...like in chess...remember...you can then be anticipated...be willing to do something wierd.