Early Jp Counter
Ayatollah
Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11921Members
Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11921Members
I've had good experience with having one or two lerks sitting on top of the hive with d chambers underneath and spiking the early jpers.
The second hive'll be a little slower, and the marines don't really lose that much on res with the lost jetpackers, but its a workable counter in my opinion.
By the time you have a second hive, there should be no excuse. Webs, umbra on the hive, whatever - even with no OCs, as long as you have umbra, the second hive should never be jp/hmg'd.
-Ayatollah
The second hive'll be a little slower, and the marines don't really lose that much on res with the lost jetpackers, but its a workable counter in my opinion.
By the time you have a second hive, there should be no excuse. Webs, umbra on the hive, whatever - even with no OCs, as long as you have umbra, the second hive should never be jp/hmg'd.
-Ayatollah
Comments
some even do this
2 guard hive 1 guard other unbuilt hive 1 gorge and 1 skulk and even sometimes another gorge (healspray+ ocs gorge)
The optiminal way to counter JP/HMG is:
2 Lerks: One spikes, one flys and bites but stays close to the hive
2 Skulks: Parasite the JPers and times their landing and goes for a bite kill.
2 Gorges: one spreads around O chambers around the hive, one builds about 7 D chambers under/near hive, (I know only 3 heal at a time but if the you lose some D chambers it wont really effect you).
This is strat is not 100%, but it is the best means currently to drop an JP HMG rush.
I'd love to see the answer to this one.
I'd love to see the answer to this one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You completly ignored everything they said. You said 5-6 SKULKS. Notice we are saying lerks. Here is the answer to your question. You lose, because you didnt go lerk. It was your fault for not following through with a counter strategy.
Rumour has it that a single D chamber can heal 3 objects at once, not the other way around.
I know you're wrong about limited to being healed by 3 D's, but I cannot verify that each D can only heal 3 damaged players/structures at any given time.
Rumour has it that a single D chamber can heal 3 objects at once, not the other way around.
I know you're wrong about limited to being healed by 3 D's, but I cannot verify that each D can only heal 3 damaged players/structures at any given time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, or else my 8 dc tactic woudnt work (tactic or HoL, whatever u wanna call it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> )
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You sure?
Or is it just for structures?
I'd love to see the answer to this one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The counter is to rush their base early and down their proto. Then use my strat, if you cannot do that you lose.
And if the JPer is taking small leaps, you have the flying lerk and spiking lerk hit him <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
And if worse comes to worse, have the Gorge go lerk. You cannot spend those resources in the ready room, because thats whats gonna happen if you dont do what i posted eariler.
That is without doubt the most important thing to defend a hive from a JP Rush.
Of course, you need 2 hives...
GL tends to do a good job clearing nearby dcs/ocs/lerks etc <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now, if I even suspect that Marines are going for a JP-rush I usually try:
- skulk rush on the proto lab
- Foregoing the 2:nd hive, instead building OC's around the hive (3 DC should already be in place)
- Getting 2-3 Lerks to guard the hive.
What people don't seem to realise is that every skulk killed by the JP:er means less bullets fired at the hive. I've seen 3-4 JP/HMG's fail to kill the hive because they were too busy killing/trying to kill the skulks. As COM I am usually screaming at the JP:ers to ignore the aliens and just unload into the hive. A JP:er that is trying to kill the skulks that are jumping around is pretty much useless and mission accomplished for aliens.
GL tends to do a good job clearing nearby dcs/ocs/lerks etc <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> the #1 team in europe tried to use GLs against us and the skulks just rushed him, and took him out with taking any damage =/
Anyways, we'll probably see much less effective (tho i comm a lot and have only done a "jp rush" 1 or 2 times) JP rushing in 1.1
Anyways, we'll probably see much less effective (tho i comm a lot and have only done a "jp rush" 1 or 2 times) JP rushing in 1.1 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm i said we played the #1 team in europe, i'm pretty sure they know how to evade decently well otherwise the commander would not have given him the GL, because they are smart players <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't remeber u playing us <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Roll on ns 1.1.
However, I wouldn't advise that. Your res will be set back enough by having a lerk (or two). Just keep going as you are.
And about the GL issue. I'm just speculating, but a lerk doesn't have to remain sitting on top of the hive in order to be effective. And the best of GLers can't hit with machinegun accuracy, especially when you account for momentum from JPing. And two lerks would defend that.
The problem that still remains is that aliens are unable to assault marine main base (due to jp>skulk map control), and will eventually have to divide their attention between two bases. Without movement chambers or phase gates (who knows), this would eventually become very difficult.
-Ayatollah
I'd love to see the answer to this one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You completly ignored everything they said. You said 5-6 SKULKS. Notice we are saying lerks. Here is the answer to your question. You lose, because you didnt go lerk. It was your fault for not following through with a counter strategy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What part of NO ONE HAS 33 RES TO GO LERK was hard to understand?
Whoever said webs, that was nice, but most jp rushes come before hive 2. Good luck with that one.
b) Even at 2 hives jp/hmgers are damn hard to stop. At 1 hive sure, a lerk can spike them, but good commanders just health spam the jper and lerks can't dish the damage out fast enough. If the aliens are lucky enough to be facing a jper who actually has to land then they have a chance, but a high frame-rate jper will never need to land and will quite happily ignore distractions and just fire at the hive. Remember, it only takes 2 clips.
2 hives gives you webs, which are good but can be avoided by savvy jpers. Fades seem to work best purely because of the splash damage on their rockets; you don't need to hit the jp straight on and they do resonable damage. Again, health spam is a problem.
Lerks umbraing a hive helps also, but often this has limited success <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Then finally there's the hive locations that are just impossible to stop jping. Refinery on bast is a prime example (what possessed the creator to make a hive location best for marines as opposed to the aliens? Big open spaces means gg aliens), but take comp core on eclipse (damn vent). Ventilation on hera? Even satcom on tanith. There's more, at varying degrees of difficulty, but really, for refinery on bast, there IS no jp secure defense. Once the marines jp/hmg in there you need to be VERY good or they'll paste it easily.
Not really. You need a lot more res flow to get a skulk to 33/33 than to outfit 3 people with HMG/jp
22+25+35+45+20+45+25+25+25+25+9+9+9-100 = 219 ticks from a single res tower (less really as you get 1 res a tick without a restower but not taking that into account on either side)
Assuming a skulk starting at 10 res, 1 res tower = 0.1 income per tick in a team of 8 with 1 gorge. Time to get to 33 res assuming skulk gets an upgrade 3 times in the time (+29 res in total) = 290 ticks
Ofcourse this is by no means realistic (not even mines for defense on marine side, not taking into account the inherent "free" res tower or respawn costs for marines or new res towers), but it does show that getting 33/33 as an alien from the start is quite slow.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Defensive chambers now only heal up to three nearby buildings or players per tick (prevents undestructible Walls of Lame). Targets are chosen randomly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If 4 damaged fades stand around one D chamber, one of them will not get healed. If a single fade stands next to 8 D chambers, he will get 80 hp per two seconds. Building 8 D chambers under a hive means they will all heal it.
This was done to increase the effectiveness of siege and GL against large walls of lame. If they damage 4 OCs at the same time, they will not all get healed at full speed.
Lerks do not die in milliseconds to a HMG when they are sitting on a hive, with 3 DCs nearby and the HMGer is not within bite range. When those conditions are satisfied you would be a fool to aim for the lerk instead of the hive.
Skulks in a clangame reach 33 roughly around the 5 minute mark. If you are getting JP rushed before you have 33, then you got screwed over in the early game.
GLs are not used to aim at the lerk on the hive, they are used to aim at the hive or the DC pile. The advantage of the GL is that it has a tendacy to damage everything around the hive, killing any DCs healing, and also killing lerks/skulks/gorge without you having to directly aim at them. Not that it isnt stoppable.
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b) Even at 2 hives jp/hmgers are damn hard to stop.
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The instant the 2nd hive goes up, you have umbra. Umbra over a hive makes it more or less invulnerable to HMG fire.
My early jp counter then:
I say "I smell jp fuel, jp rush coming soon, kill their res and main base"
When the commander reacts wrong by building turret farms around his res and not recycling them the marine Team looses much time and has a failed strat.
The trick is not to counter 4 jpers in your hive, thats impossible. Its not to let it come so far and seeing this coming early.