Preliminary Layout For Ns_donner

Kage · April 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">...or, "Hallways vs. Rooms"</div> Attached is a preliminary sketch for a map I'm thinking about making. I've decided to post it here to get an opinion- which are more important for gameplay in Natural Selection, hallways or rooms? As you can see by my layout, I have an easier time making rooms than hallways, but when looking at official maps, there are many more hallways than distinct rooms.

Tanith, probably my favorite map, seems to have just two rooms, not counting the hive and marine start rooms and the semi-room outside of the marine spawn. Eclipse also has a focus on hallways, especially as a way of creating atmosphere (hallways get more common and narrow as you approach the hives).

When I was thinking about this map, I thought of areas that I would info_location as rooms, not halls, but many maps have their hallways marked. Hallways can become very important. They aren't just for getting from one room to another, they can have their own battles and surprises throughout the course of a game. However, rooms hold the most important pieces of a map- the marine and alien starts.

Whoa, sorry for arguing with myself there...

Any comments regarding either the hallways vs. rooms argument or my layout are appreciated, especially since it's just a preliminary layout, and I can change it easily.

juice · April 2003

Isn't this ns_eclipse rotated 90 degrees counter-clockwise?

Ollj · April 2003

Rushing and holding the lower hive gives marines 4 RT. 3-4 are enough for defense, full upgrades and winning.
The other hives are too close to each other...
but hey
<a href='http://members.aol.com/evank40767/arguing.jpg' target='_blank'>http://members.aol.com/evank40767/arguing.jpg</a>
no pic.

Heist · April 2003

Careful..That lower hive is MUCH MUCH closer to the marine spawn than the other two. You need to fix this.

Kage · April 2003

Juice: Didn't seem like it to me...

Ollj: Moving the hive to the right and adding another room or twisted hallway should fix this (right?). Also, about the other hives- in some of my other sketches I had that whole top part of the map twisted 90 degrees to the left, but I wasn't sure I wanted the hive so close to the marine spawn (sieges). I'll see what I can do.

You might want to edit out that picture before it gets edited out for you...

Heist: See what I said to Ollj.

RotA_Plague · April 2003

It seems like it has very few resource nodes.

Confused · April 2003

watch the long straight hall ways - although its hrd to do any thing else in ms paint

edit : i strongly suggest making rooms seperately and the adding them!!
other wise it takes forever to tweek lights

Kage · April 2003

Plague: There are nine resource nodes, which is the average amount. At one point I was going to have a double node in the marine start, but I took one out in put it in the room closest to the start. I could think of a few places to put more nodes in.

Confused!: Yes, I was going to make the rooms separately. That's actually the idea that got me started on this map!

NerdIII · April 2003

Building rooms seperately... sounds good. Never tried that. Might be better than hiding all other lights and details except the ones in the room that has to be tweaked, since vis & bounce will take longer on larger maps no matter if there are lights everywhere.
I hope you moved the lower hive a bit (I think there is a lot of space remaining in your editor to all sides).
How large will it become? Connectivity looks ok to me, but maybe it is just a bit too small? Or the hallways are too large? Though they generally shrink to nothing as soon as you add details to those square hallways <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>
After all the main thing is to keep your map away from <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> and <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'>

gaggle · April 2003

Yeh, rooms vs. hallways.. indeed.
I too started out with a simple drawing of rooms and hallways, and it's just.. pretty limited what you can do with that. You can make a million permutations of your level, all equally valid, with the level of detail you have going atm. Essentially it's just a checklist you can go through at this point: stuff like equal runningdistance to hives, no two hives targetable by the same siege, enough branches enroute to each hive to allow for proper gameplay, etc etc.

My point is, make a drawing like you have here, hammer on it until everything you can think of on the gameplay checklist has been thought about, and then <i>move on</i>. If you feel your basic layout offers the gameplay you want, move on to the details. That's imo the hard part, making sure you know what each area is supposed to.. it's kinda lame I think, to just sort of go "well there has to be a room there because of gameplay purposes" .. figure out it's purpose, make sure everything fits together. I mean, the place has apparently been operating normally on a day-to-day basis up until the aliens knocked on the door.

Apart from the already-mentioned lower hive issue, your layout seems fine to me. There's that long long hallway, but that's only if you were to translate the layout directly to Half-Life. Instead, go in and work on it, put in some bends, machinery, loose pipes, and just generally make it interesting. This kind of layout should only show that the <i>idea</i> of the hallway is to connect to a T-junction and the western room, not how it's really going to look.

I think my point with all of this gibberish was to point out that I'd like to see more details. Go wild with it and draw in as many details you can manage. Eventually you'd be able to end up with a layout that would show your map in every detail..

I must stress that that's just my take on it, I know many mappers enjoy making a rough sketch, and then just figure out the rest as they go along. I don't work like that though so I enjoy making layouts right down to the electrical wireing running in the walls if needs be <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>. So yeah, it's fully up to you to decide where to go from here.. personally, I'd just like to see more details <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Oh and rereading this post makes me realise I might've strayed somewhat off course, into the land of "here's what I think about proper layouts". Sorry about that <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Kage · April 2003

Here's a new version of the layout. I suppose I should give a little background of the map...

The Donner power facility on planet (something that sounds cold) uses the snow of the planet to power its fusion reactors. The snow on the planet has unusually high levels of deuterium and tritium, the isotopes of hydrogen that are required for a fusion reaction. (The light blue area on the layout is an outside area filled with snow that was cultivated) The facility was temporarily abandoned when scientists predicted an unusually hot season that would come in less than a year, which would produce a very big flood. The Donner facility wasn't equipped to handle floods, so everybody temporarily pulled out for preparatory work to be done. In the time before the working crew could arrive, another group of scientists decided to test the theory that gamma radiation would harm the Kharaa. They sent previously collected samples down to the facility, and sat back for a month. A landing crew was then sent in, this is what they found...

Some notes on the changed layout: I distanced the lower hive the cheap way <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> I also rotated the top wing to show what it would look like, along with moving the marine start a little bit upward. I'm seriously considering axing the whole snow area, with the hallways that lead up to it. It unbalances the hive connected to it (the middle one) by making it have 3 entrances instead of 2 like the others, and that whole area adds nothing except for a bit of atmosphere. I might consider adding another res node room there, though.

NerdIII: I just chose some random width for the hallways, and stuck with it. They don't show the scale of the map at all- that's something I'll choose once I get the feel for mapping this one.

gaggle: </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Essentially it's just a checklist you can go through at this point: stuff like equal runningdistance to hives, no two hives targetable by the same siege, enough branches enroute to each hive to allow for proper gameplay, etc etc.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> I only intended this sketch for the purposes you gave here. Nice novel, by the way <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

I think it's important to note that I haven't started making this map yet, aside from the ship that the marines start in, and a hive that I'm thinking about porting in from a failed project of mine (don't worry, it looks real nice).

gaggle · April 2003

Is that Kage, the ninja that could jump (seemingly) several hundred meters into the air in, I think, just one big jump? Duking it out with his various foes..
..I have fond memories flooding back right now. Ahh..

Anyway, on-topic, I think the way you've extended the distance to the south-hive has yielded little change. It hasn't really added anything.. the gameplay remains the same. I don't know about you, but a room with only two exits.. it's still just transporting the players along, it doesn't sounds very strategic..
A marine taking the south exit from the marine spawn is destined to hit the south hive.. and that's not good. Imo. Try to make each hive be somewhat equal in running distance <i>and!</i> have each primary hive route contain roughly the same amount of path-branching. Gotta make things equal or the balance gets thrown out the window from the getgo <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>.

As for the snow, it sounds good, but as you say, as it is it only adds to the atmosphere in that one place. Might want to push that atmosphere around to more parts of the level? Ie. think about what kind of unique areas your level could contain with the setting you've chosen. Falling snow outside perhaps?, the extreme cold has busted several panels and pipes, the metal is moaning where it's in direct contact with the icy hell outside.. the machinery that melts the snow could be interesting as well.. and how is the snow "harvested"? Off the top of my head I was thinking maybe they collect it through a pipe-network spread around the base, in which case you could make computermonitors that displays that sort of information.

Specifically just making a big white brush in one part of the level and saying its a factory for extracting power through energy-rich.. er.. snow, doesn't neccessairly sound extremly.. enticing? I'm not saying that was what you had in mind, that's just the "nightmare" visuals that popped into my mind based on your description. Maybe the facility should have a purpose as well?, I don't know for sure but I'd imagine in the future you have some fairly neat powersources available, I don't know if you can just have a "power plant" off on a planet somewhere and get anything out of that.. hey maybe they produce the widely used and critically acclaimed Portable Fusion Mark 2 series portable generators? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> Ihhdunno, just thinking out loud here <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Kage · April 2003

Actually, the middle hive is going to be the deuterium collection center. There's going to be a big container with snow melting and steam coming off of it, which has a pipe to a whole series of machines for different parts of the process (electrolysis, stuff like that.) At first I was thinking that the top access would be for snow collecting, and the bottom one would be an observation area with breakable glass to get into the snow, but then I changed what I wanted the bottom rooms to be (originally a kitchen, mess hall, and recreation area). I'm thinking that they'll be some sort of maintenance area. </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>A marine taking the south exit from the marine spawn is destined to hit the south hive.. and that's not good. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> This is a very good point, I'll have to change that... maybe I'll put the break off leading up to the upper area before the hive. I'll also add more exits to the rooms that you just pass through. I never thought of them as transport paths before, but that's what they would have turned out to be.

I'll get to work on the new layout now.

[edit]I said I'd add to it <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> [/edit]

The_Real_Quasar · April 2003

In reference to the name, why would a power station be named after a kebab?

Kage · April 2003

I'm not sure what a "kebab" is, but Donner means thunder in German. The ship that the marines come in is called the Blitz. Hopefully that doesn't come off as being too gimmicky.

The_Real_Quasar · April 2003

All the brits round here know what i mean! Donner kebab!

Kage · April 2003

New layout. This one only has a couple of changes.

Parasite · April 2003

Donner to Americans refers to a party of travelers during the westward expansion (wagon trains, 1800's) trying to move from the East to the Western areas beyond the rocky Mountians. The "Donner Party" leader (Richard Donner I believe) Led his group astray when he thought he found a shortcut through the mountians. They ended up freezing and starving to death in the snowy mountians and survivors ate the dead until they died as well...or so the legend goes.

So keep in mind that about half the people that DL your map are american and will think "canibalism" and not "thunder" <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

As far as the layout goes....the only I dont like about it, is that marines need only walk out thier front door to get a 2nd res node in an area so close to them that they dont really have to fight to build or keep the area. it seems a little close for marines because they can easily set up thier "base" defenses in that room instead of thier base. If there were a few more corridors leading to that room, it may not be so bad... but even still its a little close.

NerdIII · April 2003

that kebab is Döner in German, I believe <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>
Some nice food from south-east europe... well... like McDonalds sometimes, but in what language is it translated to Donner??? I would accept doner or oh I see... there is no 'ö' in the English. HaHa! Only a-z... that are really too few letters. Btw... it would sound like a mixture of o,i and e in English... may be Doeiner would be a good name <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

NerdIII · April 2003

wow... i missed 3 new posts while typing the above, lol

Kage · April 2003

Whoa, too many meanings for donner... maybe I could swap the names, so the facility would be called Blitz, and the ship would be Donner. I was worried that people would think of the reindeer <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As far as the layout goes....the only I dont like about it, is that marines need only walk out thier front door to get a 2nd res node in an area so close to them that they dont really have to fight to build or keep the area. it seems a little close for marines because they can easily set up thier "base" defenses in that room instead of thier base. If there were a few more corridors leading to that room, it may not be so bad... but even still its a little close. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I was thinking that the marines would get situated in their base, take this node, then have to strike out into "alien territory" to gain a third. I'll work on making this area less of a choke point... wait I just remembered what I originally thought for it.

There would be two exits from the bay where the ship landed- one for cargo, and one for personnel (according to the doors on the ship). That room (closest to the Marine Start) would be a security checkpoint, with two sides, one for each of the exits. That would lead you straight through, but you could look through the glass in the middle to see the other side. The marines would have to do something to open up the entrance to this middle area (I'm thinking that the commander would have to hack his way in). The problem with this is that people have to know about it, so I would have to show them somehow...

I'm not sure whether I want to split up the room to have less of a choke point, or go with this second idea... anybody care to share their opinion?

Kage · April 2003

Last chance to say anything; I'm going to start work on the map.

porp · April 2003

Donner and Blitz remind me too much of the reindeer that pull Santa's sleigh. Donner and Blitzen? Yeah, I dunno. How about another language? Thunder in Finnish, for example, is jylinä. Exotic-sounding, and more evocative than Donner, which is a common surname.

And döners are very good when made right. The word is originally Turkish if I'm not mistaken.

NerdIII · April 2003

jylinä reminds ME very much to the planet of the Jolina from Stargate *g*

Preliminary Layout For Ns_donner

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