The Tech Rush
Nil
Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 9972Members
Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 9972Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Blinded by our love of the jp?</div> Ah, how I long for the days of the hmg rush. It's a simple plan. A single ip and an armory, upgraded asap. Grab a second res tower and count to 30. Equip half your guys with hmgs and send everyone to tear up the hive. A little health spam, and you've all but won.
So here's the problem.
Tech rushes nowadays aren't the hmg rushes of old. The commander usually grabs four or five res towers. Fine, fine. Can't have too much res. Then there's always an arms lab involved. Ok, weapon upgrades make the world go 'round, true. But then comes the prototype lab. And the jetpacks. And then it starts: all the team's res goes into a giant pile of jetpacks on the floor of marine spawn. "pWn teh hive!" insists the comm, whom you fear is hardly fourteen. Dutifully, your fellow soldiers grab a pack and head out... to die. Cradeling their lmgs in their hands and bumping into wall after wall, they're easy fodder for even the most coordination-deficient skulks.
Why? Be honest. No one knows how to jetpack. Sure, there's that one guy you saw once who never touched the ground. A lot of people even know how not to kill themselves falling down. Whoopee. The fact of the matter is that whether you know how to jetpack well or not, <i>you know how to <b>walk</b> better.</i>
I played two games tonight alone where two different commanders teched to jetpacks immediately, and then dropped nothing but jetpacks for the remainder of the game, counting on the unupgraded marines' lmgs to take down all opposition (no heavy weapons were dropped). They were two staggering losses.
Let's be pragmatic. A vanilla hmg rush has three main advantages over its jp equivalent: 1) quicker time to the field. No prototype lab, no jet research, and no arms lab (unless you want one). 2) easier on the marines. Everyone knows how to aim an hmg. Not everyone knows how to do it while flying around the room. Add a little lag, and you might as well be throwing the bullets by hand. 3) easier on the comm. Have you ever tried to medpack a jp'er? It's like a bad first date.
Now I have to admit, the jetpack has its place. It gives marines added mobility, access to vents they otherwise couldn't reach, and it's handy for getting past the occasional offense chamber. That said, there are a lot of times when they really aren't necessary. Primary among them is the early-game marine rush. There won't be any walls of lame to bypass, or onoses to avoid. Just give the men the ordinance and let them do their work. If it doesn't work out, there's plenty of time to change the strat later. Jetpacks have a pretty darn short research time. Use them when you need them.
So this is my plea to you, commanders of the world. Be mindful in your teching. Just because the tech tree has lots of branches doesn't mean you have to climb them all. Use what you need, and don't underestimate a **** off marine with nothing but an hmg and an acute sense of paranoia. The further he has to walk, the madder he'll be when he gets where he's going. And in the end, that's what we all want. Except, perhaps, the aliens.
So here's the problem.
Tech rushes nowadays aren't the hmg rushes of old. The commander usually grabs four or five res towers. Fine, fine. Can't have too much res. Then there's always an arms lab involved. Ok, weapon upgrades make the world go 'round, true. But then comes the prototype lab. And the jetpacks. And then it starts: all the team's res goes into a giant pile of jetpacks on the floor of marine spawn. "pWn teh hive!" insists the comm, whom you fear is hardly fourteen. Dutifully, your fellow soldiers grab a pack and head out... to die. Cradeling their lmgs in their hands and bumping into wall after wall, they're easy fodder for even the most coordination-deficient skulks.
Why? Be honest. No one knows how to jetpack. Sure, there's that one guy you saw once who never touched the ground. A lot of people even know how not to kill themselves falling down. Whoopee. The fact of the matter is that whether you know how to jetpack well or not, <i>you know how to <b>walk</b> better.</i>
I played two games tonight alone where two different commanders teched to jetpacks immediately, and then dropped nothing but jetpacks for the remainder of the game, counting on the unupgraded marines' lmgs to take down all opposition (no heavy weapons were dropped). They were two staggering losses.
Let's be pragmatic. A vanilla hmg rush has three main advantages over its jp equivalent: 1) quicker time to the field. No prototype lab, no jet research, and no arms lab (unless you want one). 2) easier on the marines. Everyone knows how to aim an hmg. Not everyone knows how to do it while flying around the room. Add a little lag, and you might as well be throwing the bullets by hand. 3) easier on the comm. Have you ever tried to medpack a jp'er? It's like a bad first date.
Now I have to admit, the jetpack has its place. It gives marines added mobility, access to vents they otherwise couldn't reach, and it's handy for getting past the occasional offense chamber. That said, there are a lot of times when they really aren't necessary. Primary among them is the early-game marine rush. There won't be any walls of lame to bypass, or onoses to avoid. Just give the men the ordinance and let them do their work. If it doesn't work out, there's plenty of time to change the strat later. Jetpacks have a pretty darn short research time. Use them when you need them.
So this is my plea to you, commanders of the world. Be mindful in your teching. Just because the tech tree has lots of branches doesn't mean you have to climb them all. Use what you need, and don't underestimate a **** off marine with nothing but an hmg and an acute sense of paranoia. The further he has to walk, the madder he'll be when he gets where he's going. And in the end, that's what we all want. Except, perhaps, the aliens.
Comments
- You can easily avoid not only OCs but Skulks!
An enemy that can't reach you, can't kill you <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
But this advantage is often negated by the fact that a lot of pll (and i include me) don't really know how to jetpack correctly.
They are simpleminded (not to mention cheap) strategies which ultimalty turn the game into a fragfest, the only requirement for the marine team to be effective, is to be able to stick together for the 4 minutes the game will last.
If you have marines who can pull it off consistently, they can usually do the same if you send them to the hive right off the bat, and spam some ammo/health at them.
i play on advanced servers and most people can own the whole alien team with a jet and lmg
A good marine team can take down a Hive, jetpacks or not.
It's boring.
Any game that is over that quickly is a waste of (very little of course) time. I like a good solid rush from time to time, just to keep both teams on their toes, but it's a one-shot totally boring tactic.
Im pretty damn good with a JP and with that out of the way I'll regretfully tell you the secrets =P CROUCH!!!! Crouching makes jetpacking about 100 times easier and controllable. Besides that it is just ALOT of practice.. GL
the hmg walking rush is still fun though, just for the rise you can get out of the skulks.
and you are right alot of people don't know how to jetpack well.
The reason is FPS, when your fps drops under 15, the jetpack doesn't refuel and when it goes below 10, you can't even lift from the ground.
I can fly very well and kill skulks in empty room, but when i have to go in to a well defended hive room, fps drops staight down to hell and i go down with it.
So, you guys with fast computer pwn in hive room with jets, but for those who have slower computer it is impossible.
You guys with fast computers, type "fps_max 10" in your console and try to kill a hive....
Oh and send me a demo for it, so i can have a good laughs....
Thank god this is going to be fixed in 1.1 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Im pretty damn good with a JP and with that out of the way I'll regretfully tell you the secrets =P CROUCH!!!! Crouching makes jetpacking about 100 times easier and controllable. Besides that it is just ALOT of practice.. GL<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh so besides flying you use the hit box bug by crouching? Thats real nice. Can't remeber if there even is an animation for a crouching flying marines. If not then you wont even give the aliens an indication that they must bite lower. Since it's hard(/impossible?) to bite a marine in the head or feet you pretty much turned god mode on. My mother could be a "good" jetpacker that way.
I pretty mad about all the crouching marines I have faced. I have no grudge with the ones dropping to give his squadmates a clear los or the ones crouching to be able to hide easier. But the ones who drop as soon as I get near... tsss....
I really loath exploiters.
Now don't take this in a way that I think you shouldn't crouch ever, I crouch alot but if I crouch then I do it to be sneaky or while guarding and I if a skulk came up to me then I would release the crouch button and try to sidestep him since my traing tells me "best defence, dont be there".
Sorry for this offtopic thread but things that I see sometimes makes me to need to blow of some steam.
But those guys who jump's and hold crouch key while they are in the air, when i get close......that is really annoying. Killing them is pretty hard, because i have to look up and try to bite.
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Crouching makes jetpacking about 100 times easier and controllable.
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Crouching in the air roughly halfs the speed at which you can make propelled turns, it cripples your air control for the sake of making it very slightly easier to get under a doorway. Stay off the crouch button untill you need to use it, to fly into a vent or as a small emergency dip under a rafter you're about to hit. Otherwise you are just needlessly limiting your turning speed.
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you use the hit box bug by crouching?
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idiot
you use the hit box bug by crouching?
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idiot<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you. May I ask why I'm an idiot? I love constructive criticism.
Arrow keys for moving
CTRL - Crouch
Shift - Jump/fly
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Same here... making yourself smaller reduces the amount of collision so that results in a much smoother flight.
If you can't turn good at all then you can't JP whether crouched or not. I can turn on a 90 degree angle turn so it's not impossible to not even touch the walls when you're flying.
I crouch while flying almost instinctivly and I can turn corners just fine...
If you can't turn good at all then you can't JP whether crouched or not. I can turn on a 90 degree angle turn so it's not impossible to not even touch the walls when you're flying.
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*sigh*
Ok, it's clear i'm not going to get any further with that point without actually showing you what i mean - so i made a quick demo:
<a href='http://www.oclube.com/usuarios/teoh/aircontrol.zip' target='_blank'>http://www.oclube.com/usuarios/teoh/aircontrol.zip</a>
Be aware, this demo has alot of typing in it, and takes the issue right from the top. I guaruntee you understand at least part of what i explain in the demo, however i do not know how much you know and covering it all is the best way to avoid having to make another one. Bare with me, get to the end and your reward will be a pretty clear example of why standing up allows you more control.
PS: damn HL engine, in Q3 that demo would be 400k i swear.
Very eloquently demonstrated TeoH. Much appreciated.
EDIT: I'm talking about the demo.
Crouching makes the hitboxes smaller I think is something someone pointed out.
Crouching while Jet Packing is exploitation because it takes more hits to kill a marine right?
Well I don't get it! Crouching helps with the maneuverability when I JP around. I don't understand why my crouching makes it inherently abusive to the game in general.
Is there some kind of coding error that occured during the game that makes it so that JP actually decreases damage dealt?
My next argument would be is it unfair to crouch without a JP? I really don't know the entire history to the debate on crouching with a JP. Don't flame me alright I am trying to get some answers so that then I can argue wether or not crouching really is an exploit.
On the issue of Jet Packs not being the only strat.....He's right...JP's are just a bullet in a clip of strategies we have access to as Comms. Making the JP rush the pivotal element of our strategy is damn near stupid. You have to be flexible (i cover this in other debates look at those if you want to know what i mean)
But seriously someone draw out why crouching with a JP is an exploit....or else quit getting upset
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I think i understand what Teoh is saying though....crouching can severly limit your ability to maneuver....it is true. Oddly i found that messing with my FPS_max made JPing either a whole lot easier or harder.. For example i changed my FPS_Max to 50 and suddenly JPing was extremely easy....turn it to 100 and you can't control the JP worth a damn. Try chaning your fps_max so that you can comfortably fly regardless of the crouch button. SOrry Teoh if you thought I was flaming you...I misread your post.
The hitboxes will not be as bad as when your in a vent. My memory tells me though that the crouching hitbox is smaller (only logical) so that makes it harder. Personally I have never been able to kill a marine from below or above so that makes it even more hard to kill at jetpacker since you then must bite a target from the side who is flying and is small. Combine this with a fps of 99 and a hive like refinary and you're in deep trouble as alien.
But if there is practicle reason to be crouching while flying, like better aircontrol or what not, then I will try to not feel grief about it.
It's just people who uses a flaw for the flaws sake that realy makes me angry and that was the way I first interped the post I replied to.
I'm sorry that my last post made some people so angry that they felt the need to flame me. I usally try to be as calm as I can since nothing good comes from a flame war but I failed this time.
Ok, it's clear i'm not going to get any further with that point without actually showing you what i mean - so i made a quick demo:
<a href='http://www.oclube.com/usuarios/teoh/aircontrol.zip' target='_blank'>http://www.oclube.com/usuarios/teoh/aircontrol.zip</a>
Be aware, this demo has alot of typing in it, and takes the issue right from the top. I guaruntee you understand at least part of what i explain in the demo, however i do not know how much you know and covering it all is the best way to avoid having to make another one. Bare with me, get to the end and your reward will be a pretty clear example of why standing up allows you more control.
PS: damn HL engine, in Q3 that demo would be 400k i swear.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't misunderstand I never said anything about you being wrong. Sorry, I suck at English. I can never make my all my points clear even if I tried, but thanks for demo anyways. It's much appreciated.
EDIT: Thought I'd throw this in for good measure: my original point was that I can fly well with a JP crouching or not. And I have a thing about my legs dangling for those pesky skulks.
I think i understand what Teoh is saying though....crouching can severly limit your ability to maneuver....it is true. Oddly i found that messing with my FPS_max made JPing either a whole lot easier or harder.. For example i changed my FPS_Max to 50 and suddenly JPing was extremely easy....turn it to 100 and you can't control the JP worth a damn. Try chaning your fps_max so that you can comfortably fly regardless of the crouch button.
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A higher framerate will mean every tap, or x amount of time holding the jump button will produce more thrust. At 100fps, it may feel quite sensitive, because every tap of the jump button will give you a big burst of upwards acceleration. If you are used to 50 fps, switching into 100fps will appear more difficult to control. It's still possible to control the JP fine at 100fps, you just have to be used to it, it's all a question of what framerate you practiced at.
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SOrry Teoh if you thought I was flaming you...I misread your post.
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erm, don't know what you're talking about here :)
I'm just trying to illustrate a point, this isnt a flame war. Crouching in the air is 'easier' to control in the sense that your model is smaller - this can help you to avoid overhead beams or to avoid touching the floor. The dissadvantage to crouching in the air is that it drastically reduces your air control, by air control i am referring to 1 specific thing, the ability to change your direction of motion in the air. Crouching limits your ability to do this, which is why it isnt a good idea to hold crouch when you are trying to fly and manouver at high speed.
As for the hitbox issue - Marine hitboxes are infact very accurate. Problems relating to marines on ladders/in vents are infact nothing to do with the marine hitboxes. They are caused by the rather dodgy skulk bite, and how it is effected by wallrunning. The only effect crouch-JPing will have on a skulks ability to bite you is that it pulls your feet up slightly, meaning a skulk will have to jump a little higher to chomp you. Thats it. No godmode, or invulnerability 'h4x'. The marines do not take more bites to kill, and there is an animation for crouching in the air - so it is clear to the skulk that they are crouching. You do not get dangling unbitable ghost legs.
But lerkers seems to have ghost wings when gliding <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. (runs away from another hitbox rabble)
be a man
get HA <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
be a man
get HA <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I <b><i>HATE</i></b> heavy armor. I would rather be weak and mobile than slow and hard to kill. I usually make it clear to the comm: gimme a JP or give me nothing at all (no weapons even.)