Sej. While this strategy is not effective on some maps, its certainly not a newbs only strat.
Most importantly, this strategy will evolve around getting much res early (3-4 nodes within the first minutes), that means you will be able to upgrade pretty quickly, it will also get you a minibase in a strategic location.
Since aliens will not have more that 3 res nodes at most, they wont be able to afford massive WOL, thus hives will be extremely vulnerable to a couple of sneaky marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Animosity. this tactic is yet another new foundation to my views that "ns forums are full of american newbs" :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a strategy, not a tactic. Go flame someone dumber that yourself.
IF the marines used only this tactic, then they would lose, mainly because the tactic does not SECURE marine res nodes, just decides the fate of alien res nodes.
This taccy should be used in combination with a phase gate rush i.e prevent them from getting 2 hives. Once they get two hives, for the rines, its all over.
I see where you are going with the sneaky attacks suggestion, but the risks to this threat far outweigh the possibility of a sneaky jp hmger or a sneaky phase > lmg rush.
Cripes, I am so sick of these "If the aliens were smart," arguments.
Sej, there are these things that wander around the map - think they're called "marines". You know, the helmeted guys with the guns? You know how aliens can win "if they are smart"? Well, so can these strange creatures! Yeah, they walk around the map, and tend to kill the aliens that try to eat marine structures! And they also have these newfangled things called "eyes." Funny thing is, when these "eyes" focus on alien resource nodes, the sieges ATTACK them! Without the commander having to ping them! Wow!
If you want to be a "smart" alien, and keep putting up resource nodes I kill, then have fun. As far as I'm concerned, your 22 resources lost is better than my 9 or so resources lost scanning the resouce node, or my 0 resources lost sending a marine out there to LOS. Especially since, you know, you only have 2 resource nodes, and I have 4-7 (depending on how well you harass me). Which, by the way, there are various ways to cover resource nodes. One, mines. One mine pack is enough to keep the "smart" skulks off your backs. A marine patrol is also a splendid way to kill ravaging skulks.
People, I though I'd explained this enough, but I suppose I'll give it another go: this is a OFFENSIVE strategy. Being offensive, in a sense, makes the aliens DEFENSIVE. When aliens are defensive, they don't, you know, attack much. Let's say the aliens are "smart," and they go on a harassing frenzy on my resource nodes. That means your starting hive has nobody guarding it, and all your aliens are spread out around the map. My marines (amazing how dumb you alien "Oh-I-can-beat-that-strategy-easily" evangelists assume my marines are) can mosy right in there, set up an armory and mine the place in a snap. While your "smart" alien team is spread out around the map, sitting with their thumbs up their butt and chomping away at my resource nodes, my marines have - in a 20 second period - made your hive unspawnable, and will probably commence to open LMG fire onto it. Then as you drag your smart selves back to the hive, you'll find yourself blown up by mines or quite chilled due to the absense of your hive. That's what happens when you don't defend while the marines are on the offensive!
Any defensive structures you try to put up? Yeah, they'll probably die. Since the marines control most of the map, you'll have to build them right in your hive, or they'll get sieged. And it's just so darn amazing how easily a rambo or two can barge right into a hive and kill those defensive structures before you can do jack, since you were "smart" and harassed my resources. Oops number dos.
The thing is, I have most of the maps resources, and you have two, if not less. The skulks with leap ability and the webs are nice, and so is a lerk with umbra, but grenade launchers and jetpack/HMG'ers tend to kill off all three with ruthless efficiency. You might get one fade wave with overflow, but after that, it'll be a looong wait with 2 resource nodes. Maybe less than that, since marines can harass just as well as aliens can. Your gorge, being resource drained (no more team overflow for him), won't be able to set up much as far as walls of lame go.
The only, and I do mean the ONLY, way this strategy is guaranteed to fail is if the marines lapse into the defensive. This'll happen when 1) marines can't shoot for crap, and they feel more safe around the sieges than out in the fray, or 2) there is a vast intelligence difference between alien and marine players. If a veteran marine team uses this against a veteran alien team, chances are, marines will win. Capiche?
And there are things around the map who have teeth, have a hunger for rines and scrap metal, and are very very very fast - skulks.
Who wont just sit on their arses whilst you gain control of the entire map
Who wont just let rines kill them all the time and sit there like lemons screaming "Pls, we dont mind you getting up all the rts on the map, so dont shoot us!"
You also seem to have this magical idea that 1 rine is capable of wiping out multiple aliens with their cara upgrades.
You wont control the whole map or even half of it before they get level 3 cara > if you went for upgrades, then youd control only about a quarter of the map, and shock horror, when you try to gain more control of the map youll be fighting fades. Onos with good aliens.
If you claim that:
1) You can gain control of 50 percent of the map within the time it takes them to get cara 2) Rines can guard 8 resource nodes constantly - 1 rine taking out 3 cara level 3 skulks out in a go (you ever tthought about aliens being smart and rushing res nodes with more than 1 skulk?) 3)You can get ANY upgrades whilst trying to set up a siege which is WELL DEFENDED with turrets to control over half the res nodes. (oh lookie, there goes youre countering webbing and umbra with GL's and JP and HMG argument) 4)Magically, all the siege emplacements stay alive.
You sir, are lieing, and obviously hav not come across a skilled alien team.
REMEMBER -
-Your strategy ensures that aliens CAN NOT get the res nodes in the sphere of your siege influence up, it doesn NOT ENSURE that your own marine resource nodes will be safe - 2-3 skulks going round in a pack hunting down res nodes, guarded by 1 marine and no turrets - You will be spending a lot of resources on building the resource towers themselves. You are not setting up tfacs or turrets at the res nodes.
In the end most good strategies which will probably provide a win for the marines involve not letting aliens get two hives (apart from quad/gen room lock down on ns_nothing) - And unfortunately this strategy goes no way near breaking the pattern.
Perhaps this strategy will earn credibility in 1.1, perhaps not
Edit: If it that easy to defend multiple siege emplacements early-mid game as you claim it is, then why not just secure the two hives itself (to control the res nodes youll need to defend over two locations anyway), which will stop them gettng fades.
And if this is an offensive strategy.. its an extremely defensive , "offensive" strategy.
Lol. The one who is missing out on a possibly good strategy is you, Sej. So if you want to close your mind, its not our, or his problem. He was kind enough to take the time to write something that might be potentially useful in certain circumstances, and I think at the VERY least we should show some respect. Maybe it would be better if you actually TRY it out BEFORE dismissing it.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
hell, I managed to pull it off. It IS harder to pull off than a JP/HMG rush, but I think it's a refreshing change. The point is it is like normal expansion, except throw in more turrets and some seiges. The spots where you'd want to set up seiges usually has a res node anyway, so I think you could usualy get at least 3 res nodes doing this strat. Probably more. And meanwhile you'd only need to leave one marine at each seige location to guard (depends on how many turrets) because you'd want to research motion tracking. Do not try to defend multiple for an extended amount of time outposts w/o motion tracking. The rest would be harasing aliens, and hopefully preventing them from getting second hive.
I think using this tactic as a rock foundation for play is a bad idea. Instead it's better to take bits and bobs of Daves idea, and put it to use when needed.
For instance, I now know that taking messhall can cover 4 res points. I can put this to use whenever I like, I don't have to restrict to a "be all or end all" tactic at the beggining of the game.
As for testing it, I don't have the server files for .4, so I couldn't tell. They reach in .3 though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sej, as far as I'm concerned, your line of thinking is based upon the assumption that a inexplicably "skilled alien team" is playing against a retarded, all-n00b marine team. Marine teams can be skilled too! Marines can just as easily, if not more so (with their commander's help) move in packs! It is possible!
Do you think that, in the case of your "skilled" alien team's pack hunting, an equally skilled marine team would sit with their thumbs up their butts in their main base? There's a thing called "motion tracking." It allows me to track your little pack. If I see you cruising around hunting my resources, chances are, I'll send a sizable pack of marines to stop you. They can get their quite speedily due to the phase gates in nearby offensive outposts. They have guns, possibly some weapon upgrades, know which entrance you'll be coming from, and are "skilled" - they will kill you!
The sieges stay up because of what is probably a known law by now in NS: whereever there is a phase gate/IP, there is infinite marine reinforcements. The strategy entails the set-up of only one minibase, and it isn't *that* hard for marines to guard the two locations involved. Since, of course, your skilled aliens are killing them so much.
Someone's already said it, though I'll repeat it just for you: since these all involve getting a location near a resource node, you automatically have two resources. If you'll notice, most of these locations are also within walking distance of another resource node, i.e. Miasma is so damned close to Generator Room and Docking Wing is so close to marine start that a "skilled" marine team could defend them with ease.
REMEMBER -
-Marines spawn faster than skulks. Multiple IP's + distress call ensures that marines can get back out into the fray a lot more quickly than aliens, and with phase gates and "skill," this'll make all the difference.
- Mines can kill uncarapaced skulks who try to assault resources, and if they are in a pack, delay the resource's downfall. In the time it takes for the leftover aliens to munch on the resource node, a marine team can be dispatched from a nearby spawn/phase gate to deal with the threat. A single marine with a welder can have the resource node back up to full health before the "skilled" pack of skulks spawns again. Recyclign the resource node then rebuilding it again also does not cause much aof a net loss in resources.
-Marines CAN control half the map, before level 3 carapace. That's what the strategy does. Marines will have complete structural dominance over a vast portion (read: half) of the map, while the aliens will not be able to build there. A good rule to remember, is that anything withing the range of a siege is also within the range of quick marine response (assuming the siege is near a phase gate). If marines can reach an area faster from their spawn than aliens can, and aliens can't build structures there, then the area is controlled by the marines. And getting a phase gate and turret factory up and be done before level 3 carapace sets in.
- As long as there is a phase gate, mines, and 3-4 turrets, the siege outpost will stay alive, even against the best of skulks. All the sieges are, with little exception, all in the same room, so as long as the room is guarded, the sieges are too.
- Aliens will normally be too distracted trying to take out the marine outpost to worry about clearing hives. I don't care how "skilled" you say an alien team is, chances are, when they see this strat put into action, they'll attempt to attack either marine main or the siege outpost, not clear hives. Meatshield pointed this out perfectly a while ago, saying all he needed in PowerSilo the ENTIRE game was a phase gate. Because the aliens were so intent on keeping the marines out of generator room and viaduct hive and off the resources on the left side of the map, the hive was left wide open. Whether you decide to set up base in the neglected hive is moot. The point is , the aliens will NOT try to get a hvie up there, and if they do, they won't be able to defend it well while it builds (cargo to powersilo - yeah right).
-Hives require RESOURCES. 80, in fact. No matter how "skilled" you are, it's going to take a LONG time to raise 80 resources on 2 resource nodes (possibly less - once again, marines can harass "in packs" quite efficiently as well), especially when you're getting your three defense towers for level 3 carapace and rebuilding any resource nodes that marines kill.
-Aliens tend to build 3 resource towers before starting the hive, to maximize resource inflow. Assuming one of these is build in the hive that is to be taken, the sieges will take out 2 resource towers. Remember - as aliens, YOU DO NOT KNOW THE MARINES ARE PERFORMING THIS STRATEGY UNTIL IT IS TOO LATE. That's both 44 resources (read: and the time to build them) immediately wasted, as well as a much longer wait before the 80 resource mark is hit. Meanwhile, marines are free to tech up as they roam around the map hunting D towers, resource nodes, and gorges.
-Chances are, marines will have jetpacks and HMG's by the time the hive goes up, and it'll be killed before it finishes.
And to wrap things up, I will state AGAIN that this is an OFFENSIVE strategy. Not an offensive strategy that is very defensive, but an OFFENSIVE strategy. Only one or at most two marines will be needed to actually gaurd the bases - everyone else will be hunting gorges, resource nodes, defense towers. That's what the strategy allows them to do. Because they don't have to worry about the aliens having healing outposts or resource nodes anywhere nearby, the marines are allowed to constantly rush the hives themselves. If you're off harassing resource nodes or piggybanking for a hive, then chances are, the hive is undefended, and the marauding marines will kill it. 'Nuff said.
Now, for the love of god, just try the strategy against an alien team before you go picking holes in it that don't realistically exist (i.e. "as a skilled alien team, we can read the commander's mind, and know exactly what he's planning to do from the very beginning of the game, and will thereby know exactly what and what not to attack and how to go about attacking it, and will be able to organize packs of resource hunters while the marines sit with their thumbs up their butts defending their base").
This stratagy certainly does make a refreshing change and given the strong possibility of "all aliens at 1 hive" in 1.1 this will be absolutly gold. Sej, you're missing a vital differance in the current marine/alien resource systems. Aliens need to build AND hold res points; they can get by with 4 or so, but their loss is crippling. In contrast, marines simply have to build res points and in a 16 player game hold them for a mere 70 seconds to get back their entire investment. After that it's all profit baby. So what if some roaming skulks hit one or two. In that time you've used that res to upgrade weapons, armour, and get some proto research down. Denial of res points to aliens is almost as good as actively killing them; and don't forget as well, if the aliens try to put up a res point in your zone you stand a good chance of killing the gorge as well.
Marines wil like to hold res, don't get me wrong. Mines and some patrolling marines will easily work wonders. Btw, you speak of carapaced skulks as though they are godly; lvl 2 weapon upgrades negate that upgrade. Tech > turrets; marines don't bother holding every res they cap because it's too costly. However, holding it for a short length of time and using the profit to tech is a winning stratagy.
As 2 hive lockdowns will be much much harder in 1.1, so it seems, this stratagy requires some serious attention. Denial of resources will be the name of the 1.1 game, so this strat is gold.
Sej, as far as I'm concerned, your line of thinking is based upon the assumption that a inexplicably "skilled alien team" is playing against a retarded, all-n00b marine team. Marine teams can be skilled too! Marines can just as easily, if not more so (with their commander's help) move in packs! It is possible!
Do you think that, in the case of your "skilled" alien team's pack hunting, an equally skilled marine team would sit with their thumbs up their butts in their main base? There's a thing called "motion tracking." It allows me to track your little pack. If I see you cruising around hunting my resources, chances are, I'll send a sizable pack of marines to stop you. They can get their quite speedily due to the phase gates in nearby offensive outposts. They have guns, possibly some weapon upgrades, know which entrance you'll be coming from, and are "skilled" - they will kill you!
The sieges stay up because of what is probably a known law by now in NS: whereever there is a phase gate/IP, there is infinite marine reinforcements. The strategy entails the set-up of only one minibase, and it isn't *that* hard for marines to guard the two locations involved. Since, of course, your skilled aliens are killing them so much.
Someone's already said it, though I'll repeat it just for you: since these all involve getting a location near a resource node, you automatically have two resources. If you'll notice, most of these locations are also within walking distance of another resource node, i.e. Miasma is so damned close to Generator Room and Docking Wing is so close to marine start that a "skilled" marine team could defend them with ease.
REMEMBER -
-Marines spawn faster than skulks. Multiple IP's + distress call ensures that marines can get back out into the fray a lot more quickly than aliens, and with phase gates and "skill," this'll make all the difference.
- Mines can kill uncarapaced skulks who try to assault resources, and if they are in a pack, delay the resource's downfall. In the time it takes for the leftover aliens to munch on the resource node, a marine team can be dispatched from a nearby spawn/phase gate to deal with the threat. A single marine with a welder can have the resource node back up to full health before the "skilled" pack of skulks spawns again. Recyclign the resource node then rebuilding it again also does not cause much aof a net loss in resources.
-Marines CAN control half the map, before level 3 carapace. That's what the strategy does. Marines will have complete structural dominance over a vast portion (read: half) of the map, while the aliens will not be able to build there. A good rule to remember, is that anything withing the range of a siege is also within the range of quick marine response (assuming the siege is near a phase gate). If marines can reach an area faster from their spawn than aliens can, and aliens can't build structures there, then the area is controlled by the marines. And getting a phase gate and turret factory up and be done before level 3 carapace sets in.
- As long as there is a phase gate, mines, and 3-4 turrets, the siege outpost will stay alive, even against the best of skulks. All the sieges are, with little exception, all in the same room, so as long as the room is guarded, the sieges are too.
- Aliens will normally be too distracted trying to take out the marine outpost to worry about clearing hives. I don't care how "skilled" you say an alien team is, chances are, when they see this strat put into action, they'll attempt to attack either marine main or the siege outpost, not clear hives. Meatshield pointed this out perfectly a while ago, saying all he needed in PowerSilo the ENTIRE game was a phase gate. Because the aliens were so intent on keeping the marines out of generator room and viaduct hive and off the resources on the left side of the map, the hive was left wide open. Whether you decide to set up base in the neglected hive is moot. The point is , the aliens will NOT try to get a hvie up there, and if they do, they won't be able to defend it well while it builds (cargo to powersilo - yeah right).
-Hives require RESOURCES. 80, in fact. No matter how "skilled" you are, it's going to take a LONG time to raise 80 resources on 2 resource nodes (possibly less - once again, marines can harass "in packs" quite efficiently as well), especially when you're getting your three defense towers for level 3 carapace and rebuilding any resource nodes that marines kill.
-Aliens tend to build 3 resource towers before starting the hive, to maximize resource inflow. Assuming one of these is build in the hive that is to be taken, the sieges will take out 2 resource towers. Remember - as aliens, YOU DO NOT KNOW THE MARINES ARE PERFORMING THIS STRATEGY UNTIL IT IS TOO LATE. That's both 44 resources (read: and the time to build them) immediately wasted, as well as a much longer wait before the 80 resource mark is hit. Meanwhile, marines are free to tech up as they roam around the map hunting D towers, resource nodes, and gorges.
-Chances are, marines will have jetpacks and HMG's by the time the hive goes up, and it'll be killed before it finishes.
And to wrap things up, I will state AGAIN that this is an OFFENSIVE strategy. Not an offensive strategy that is very defensive, but an OFFENSIVE strategy. Only one or at most two marines will be needed to actually gaurd the bases - everyone else will be hunting gorges, resource nodes, defense towers. That's what the strategy allows them to do. Because they don't have to worry about the aliens having healing outposts or resource nodes anywhere nearby, the marines are allowed to constantly rush the hives themselves. If you're off harassing resource nodes or piggybanking for a hive, then chances are, the hive is undefended, and the marauding marines will kill it. 'Nuff said.
Now, for the love of god, just try the strategy against an alien team before you go picking holes in it that don't realistically exist (i.e. "as a skilled alien team, we can read the commander's mind, and know exactly what he's planning to do from the very beginning of the game, and will thereby know exactly what and what not to attack and how to go about attacking it, and will be able to organize packs of resource hunters while the marines sit with their thumbs up their butts defending their base"). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats a very long post. Wonder how long you took to wrote that.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
And you just quoted that post to add what to this thread? don't waste space please <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Remember, 2 hive lockdowns will do jack SHIIT in 1.1
Sej, you are obviously the one who never played anyone with a bit of skill.
a) Before carpace lvl3 shows up a single good marine, provided he is not caught in unsuited terrain, easily kills 2-3 skulks by himself. The loadout of the pistol and the lmg has the damage potential to kill 7 skulks without a reload. (I realize that no one takes on 7 skulks alone, I'm just trying to make a point about the balance of power) Carpace changes this to 2, thus shifting the balance significantly.
b) Once MT is researched patrolling becomes much easier, marines can now recieve the ability to see where the resource nodes are attacked.
I understand the strategy and how it works, but I have a reservation.
How do you get into these positions, at each point you need 1TF+upg, 2 seiges, PG minimum. And you'll probably want mines and turrets. How can you afford that? for example you are trying an 'old skool' 2 hive lock down then by the time you had to bases locked down aliens could already afford a hive they just had to get it. In this case its a two hive lockdown but with not in hives.
If you could do it quick enough then I can see the appeal but I don't see how you could do it very quickly.
If you did for example: what your build order is and where for one particular map it would help. Any chance of this?
In response to the perhaps slightly singed sej - Your right it won't work well in a clan match but I'd say this is much more a public statergy where 'varitey is king'. Another strat that actually makes tactical sense is great because as a comm you need to know every trick you can.
Interesting strategy, and a refreshing change from the boring JP/HMG Rush strat that has been employed of late. It sounds economically viable, and very insightfull (As aliens Im always worried about keeping res nodes alive, and often tell skulks to patrol vulnerable spots if they are willing) and keeping them down to at most 2 res points, will undoubtedly delay carapace, upgrades, hives, and then fades when the hive does come online. Denial of resource is a great tactic, that most people dont seem to accept. At 2 res, your income will be nothing, especially considering you may lose one res tower early on due to a marine/scan siege of the area, so your now down 22 res, without a tower to show for it, and that has delayed your build schedule dramatically (Its almost like the Early Res node rush, where you kill their first res node, and cripple the team for the rest of the game, they can never catch up) And if by some miracle of funding, they manage to scrape the res together for the second hive, the res towers that they do have, will ensure only 1 fade (the gorge) in the first 3 minutes, sure web, umbra and leap are great, but as was pointed out, upgraded marines with advanced weaponry make short work of them. As the marine havent been sitting idlly by, they most likely have teched up, have lvl 3 weapons, lvl 2 armour (maybe lvl 3) and jetpacks and HMG's. Possibly even a few grenade launchers. Now your single fade, and then the resulting fade swarm will die quite quickly to a teched up marine team, leaving you with skulks for the next 5-10 minutes as your measly 2 res income wont allow anyone to refade in the next decade.
This Strategy sounds extreemely viable, and if I were Comm material I'd like to employ it on a regular basis to give my marines a nice change.
Who cares if it doesn't work in clan play? They can have their JP/HMG rushes or whatever and be happy. Let people on public servers have fun, which it looks like this strategy is. There are countless more public games than clan games each day, yet some people think only clan play matters and gives them the right to insult others. I'd love to play under a commander who was trying this strategy, it looks like a riot.
<!--QuoteBegin--OBhave+Apr 22 2003, 02:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OBhave @ Apr 22 2003, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> man where do you get those sweet maps of the ns maps? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://www.tribes2maps.com/ns/' target='_blank'>Here you go</a>
Comments
lets compare;
3 Hives and 3 res per tick
vs
1 Hive and 15 res per tick
Id say one onos every fifteen minutes is better than carpaced lerks everywhere...
While this strategy is not effective on some maps, its certainly not a newbs only strat.
Most importantly, this strategy will evolve around getting much res early (3-4 nodes within the first minutes), that means you will be able to upgrade pretty quickly, it will also get you a minibase in a strategic location.
Since aliens will not have more that 3 res nodes at most, they wont be able to afford massive WOL, thus hives will be extremely vulnerable to a couple of sneaky marines.
this tactic is yet another new foundation to my views that "ns forums are full of american newbs" :/
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a strategy, not a tactic. Go flame someone dumber that yourself.
IF the marines used only this tactic, then they would lose, mainly because the tactic does not SECURE marine res nodes, just decides the fate of alien res nodes.
This taccy should be used in combination with a phase gate rush i.e prevent them from getting 2 hives. Once they get two hives, for the rines, its all over.
I see where you are going with the sneaky attacks suggestion, but the risks to this threat far outweigh the possibility of a sneaky jp hmger or a sneaky phase > lmg rush.
Sej, there are these things that wander around the map - think they're called "marines". You know, the helmeted guys with the guns? You know how aliens can win "if they are smart"? Well, so can these strange creatures! Yeah, they walk around the map, and tend to kill the aliens that try to eat marine structures! And they also have these newfangled things called "eyes." Funny thing is, when these "eyes" focus on alien resource nodes, the sieges ATTACK them! Without the commander having to ping them! Wow!
If you want to be a "smart" alien, and keep putting up resource nodes I kill, then have fun. As far as I'm concerned, your 22 resources lost is better than my 9 or so resources lost scanning the resouce node, or my 0 resources lost sending a marine out there to LOS. Especially since, you know, you only have 2 resource nodes, and I have 4-7 (depending on how well you harass me). Which, by the way, there are various ways to cover resource nodes. One, mines. One mine pack is enough to keep the "smart" skulks off your backs. A marine patrol is also a splendid way to kill ravaging skulks.
People, I though I'd explained this enough, but I suppose I'll give it another go: this is a OFFENSIVE strategy. Being offensive, in a sense, makes the aliens DEFENSIVE. When aliens are defensive, they don't, you know, attack much. Let's say the aliens are "smart," and they go on a harassing frenzy on my resource nodes. That means your starting hive has nobody guarding it, and all your aliens are spread out around the map. My marines (amazing how dumb you alien "Oh-I-can-beat-that-strategy-easily" evangelists assume my marines are) can mosy right in there, set up an armory and mine the place in a snap. While your "smart" alien team is spread out around the map, sitting with their thumbs up their butt and chomping away at my resource nodes, my marines have - in a 20 second period - made your hive unspawnable, and will probably commence to open LMG fire onto it. Then as you drag your smart selves back to the hive, you'll find yourself blown up by mines or quite chilled due to the absense of your hive. That's what happens when you don't defend while the marines are on the offensive!
Any defensive structures you try to put up? Yeah, they'll probably die. Since the marines control most of the map, you'll have to build them right in your hive, or they'll get sieged. And it's just so darn amazing how easily a rambo or two can barge right into a hive and kill those defensive structures before you can do jack, since you were "smart" and harassed my resources. Oops number dos.
The thing is, I have most of the maps resources, and you have two, if not less. The skulks with leap ability and the webs are nice, and so is a lerk with umbra, but grenade launchers and jetpack/HMG'ers tend to kill off all three with ruthless efficiency. You might get one fade wave with overflow, but after that, it'll be a looong wait with 2 resource nodes. Maybe less than that, since marines can harass just as well as aliens can. Your gorge, being resource drained (no more team overflow for him), won't be able to set up much as far as walls of lame go.
The only, and I do mean the ONLY, way this strategy is guaranteed to fail is if the marines lapse into the defensive. This'll happen when 1) marines can't shoot for crap, and they feel more safe around the sieges than out in the fray, or 2) there is a vast intelligence difference between alien and marine players. If a veteran marine team uses this against a veteran alien team, chances are, marines will win. Capiche?
And there are things around the map who have teeth, have a hunger for rines and scrap metal, and are very very very fast - skulks.
Who wont just sit on their arses whilst you gain control of the entire map
Who wont just let rines kill them all the time and sit there like lemons screaming "Pls, we dont mind you getting up all the rts on the map, so dont shoot us!"
You also seem to have this magical idea that 1 rine is capable of wiping out multiple aliens with their cara upgrades.
You wont control the whole map or even half of it before they get level 3 cara > if you went for upgrades, then youd control only about a quarter of the map, and shock horror, when you try to gain more control of the map youll be fighting fades. Onos with good aliens.
If you claim that:
1) You can gain control of 50 percent of the map within the time it takes them to get cara
2) Rines can guard 8 resource nodes constantly - 1 rine taking out 3 cara level 3 skulks out in a go (you ever tthought about aliens being smart and rushing res nodes with more than 1 skulk?)
3)You can get ANY upgrades whilst trying to set up a siege which is WELL DEFENDED with turrets to control over half the res nodes. (oh lookie, there goes youre countering webbing and umbra with GL's and JP and HMG argument)
4)Magically, all the siege emplacements stay alive.
You sir, are lieing, and obviously hav not come across a skilled alien team.
REMEMBER -
-Your strategy ensures that aliens CAN NOT get the res nodes in the sphere of your siege influence up, it doesn NOT ENSURE that your own marine resource nodes will be safe - 2-3 skulks going round in a pack hunting down res nodes, guarded by 1 marine and no turrets - You will be spending a lot of resources on building the resource towers themselves. You are not setting up tfacs or turrets at the res nodes.
In the end most good strategies which will probably provide a win for the marines involve not letting aliens get two hives (apart from quad/gen room lock down on ns_nothing) - And unfortunately this strategy goes no way near breaking the pattern.
Perhaps this strategy will earn credibility in 1.1, perhaps not
Edit: If it that easy to defend multiple siege emplacements early-mid game as you claim it is, then why not just secure the two hives itself (to control the res nodes youll need to defend over two locations anyway), which will stop them gettng fades.
And if this is an offensive strategy.. its an extremely defensive , "offensive" strategy.
For instance, I now know that taking messhall can cover 4 res points. I can put this to use whenever I like, I don't have to restrict to a "be all or end all" tactic at the beggining of the game.
As for testing it, I don't have the server files for .4, so I couldn't tell. They reach in .3 though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sej, as far as I'm concerned, your line of thinking is based upon the assumption that a inexplicably "skilled alien team" is playing against a retarded, all-n00b marine team. Marine teams can be skilled too! Marines can just as easily, if not more so (with their commander's help) move in packs! It is possible!
Do you think that, in the case of your "skilled" alien team's pack hunting, an equally skilled marine team would sit with their thumbs up their butts in their main base? There's a thing called "motion tracking." It allows me to track your little pack. If I see you cruising around hunting my resources, chances are, I'll send a sizable pack of marines to stop you. They can get their quite speedily due to the phase gates in nearby offensive outposts. They have guns, possibly some weapon upgrades, know which entrance you'll be coming from, and are "skilled" - they will kill you!
The sieges stay up because of what is probably a known law by now in NS: whereever there is a phase gate/IP, there is infinite marine reinforcements. The strategy entails the set-up of only one minibase, and it isn't *that* hard for marines to guard the two locations involved. Since, of course, your skilled aliens are killing them so much.
Someone's already said it, though I'll repeat it just for you: since these all involve getting a location near a resource node, you automatically have two resources. If you'll notice, most of these locations are also within walking distance of another resource node, i.e. Miasma is so damned close to Generator Room and Docking Wing is so close to marine start that a "skilled" marine team could defend them with ease.
REMEMBER -
-Marines spawn faster than skulks. Multiple IP's + distress call ensures that marines can get back out into the fray a lot more quickly than aliens, and with phase gates and "skill," this'll make all the difference.
- Mines can kill uncarapaced skulks who try to assault resources, and if they are in a pack, delay the resource's downfall. In the time it takes for the leftover aliens to munch on the resource node, a marine team can be dispatched from a nearby spawn/phase gate to deal with the threat. A single marine with a welder can have the resource node back up to full health before the "skilled" pack of skulks spawns again. Recyclign the resource node then rebuilding it again also does not cause much aof a net loss in resources.
-Marines CAN control half the map, before level 3 carapace. That's what the strategy does. Marines will have complete structural dominance over a vast portion (read: half) of the map, while the aliens will not be able to build there. A good rule to remember, is that anything withing the range of a siege is also within the range of quick marine response (assuming the siege is near a phase gate). If marines can reach an area faster from their spawn than aliens can, and aliens can't build structures there, then the area is controlled by the marines. And getting a phase gate and turret factory up and be done before level 3 carapace sets in.
- As long as there is a phase gate, mines, and 3-4 turrets, the siege outpost will stay alive, even against the best of skulks. All the sieges are, with little exception, all in the same room, so as long as the room is guarded, the sieges are too.
- Aliens will normally be too distracted trying to take out the marine outpost to worry about clearing hives. I don't care how "skilled" you say an alien team is, chances are, when they see this strat put into action, they'll attempt to attack either marine main or the siege outpost, not clear hives. Meatshield pointed this out perfectly a while ago, saying all he needed in PowerSilo the ENTIRE game was a phase gate. Because the aliens were so intent on keeping the marines out of generator room and viaduct hive and off the resources on the left side of the map, the hive was left wide open. Whether you decide to set up base in the neglected hive is moot. The point is , the aliens will NOT try to get a hvie up there, and if they do, they won't be able to defend it well while it builds (cargo to powersilo - yeah right).
-Hives require RESOURCES. 80, in fact. No matter how "skilled" you are, it's going to take a LONG time to raise 80 resources on 2 resource nodes (possibly less - once again, marines can harass "in packs" quite efficiently as well), especially when you're getting your three defense towers for level 3 carapace and rebuilding any resource nodes that marines kill.
-Aliens tend to build 3 resource towers before starting the hive, to maximize resource inflow. Assuming one of these is build in the hive that is to be taken, the sieges will take out 2 resource towers. Remember - as aliens, YOU DO NOT KNOW THE MARINES ARE PERFORMING THIS STRATEGY UNTIL IT IS TOO LATE. That's both 44 resources (read: and the time to build them) immediately wasted, as well as a much longer wait before the 80 resource mark is hit. Meanwhile, marines are free to tech up as they roam around the map hunting D towers, resource nodes, and gorges.
-Chances are, marines will have jetpacks and HMG's by the time the hive goes up, and it'll be killed before it finishes.
And to wrap things up, I will state AGAIN that this is an OFFENSIVE strategy. Not an offensive strategy that is very defensive, but an OFFENSIVE strategy. Only one or at most two marines will be needed to actually gaurd the bases - everyone else will be hunting gorges, resource nodes, defense towers. That's what the strategy allows them to do. Because they don't have to worry about the aliens having healing outposts or resource nodes anywhere nearby, the marines are allowed to constantly rush the hives themselves. If you're off harassing resource nodes or piggybanking for a hive, then chances are, the hive is undefended, and the marauding marines will kill it. 'Nuff said.
Now, for the love of god, just try the strategy against an alien team before you go picking holes in it that don't realistically exist (i.e. "as a skilled alien team, we can read the commander's mind, and know exactly what he's planning to do from the very beginning of the game, and will thereby know exactly what and what not to attack and how to go about attacking it, and will be able to organize packs of resource hunters while the marines sit with their thumbs up their butts defending their base").
Sej, you're missing a vital differance in the current marine/alien resource systems. Aliens need to build AND hold res points; they can get by with 4 or so, but their loss is crippling. In contrast, marines simply have to build res points and in a 16 player game hold them for a mere 70 seconds to get back their entire investment. After that it's all profit baby. So what if some roaming skulks hit one or two. In that time you've used that res to upgrade weapons, armour, and get some proto research down. Denial of res points to aliens is almost as good as actively killing them; and don't forget as well, if the aliens try to put up a res point in your zone you stand a good chance of killing the gorge as well.
Marines wil like to hold res, don't get me wrong. Mines and some patrolling marines will easily work wonders. Btw, you speak of carapaced skulks as though they are godly; lvl 2 weapon upgrades negate that upgrade. Tech > turrets; marines don't bother holding every res they cap because it's too costly. However, holding it for a short length of time and using the profit to tech is a winning stratagy.
As 2 hive lockdowns will be much much harder in 1.1, so it seems, this stratagy requires some serious attention. Denial of resources will be the name of the 1.1 game, so this strat is gold.
Sej, as far as I'm concerned, your line of thinking is based upon the assumption that a inexplicably "skilled alien team" is playing against a retarded, all-n00b marine team. Marine teams can be skilled too! Marines can just as easily, if not more so (with their commander's help) move in packs! It is possible!
Do you think that, in the case of your "skilled" alien team's pack hunting, an equally skilled marine team would sit with their thumbs up their butts in their main base? There's a thing called "motion tracking." It allows me to track your little pack. If I see you cruising around hunting my resources, chances are, I'll send a sizable pack of marines to stop you. They can get their quite speedily due to the phase gates in nearby offensive outposts. They have guns, possibly some weapon upgrades, know which entrance you'll be coming from, and are "skilled" - they will kill you!
The sieges stay up because of what is probably a known law by now in NS: whereever there is a phase gate/IP, there is infinite marine reinforcements. The strategy entails the set-up of only one minibase, and it isn't *that* hard for marines to guard the two locations involved. Since, of course, your skilled aliens are killing them so much.
Someone's already said it, though I'll repeat it just for you: since these all involve getting a location near a resource node, you automatically have two resources. If you'll notice, most of these locations are also within walking distance of another resource node, i.e. Miasma is so damned close to Generator Room and Docking Wing is so close to marine start that a "skilled" marine team could defend them with ease.
REMEMBER -
-Marines spawn faster than skulks. Multiple IP's + distress call ensures that marines can get back out into the fray a lot more quickly than aliens, and with phase gates and "skill," this'll make all the difference.
- Mines can kill uncarapaced skulks who try to assault resources, and if they are in a pack, delay the resource's downfall. In the time it takes for the leftover aliens to munch on the resource node, a marine team can be dispatched from a nearby spawn/phase gate to deal with the threat. A single marine with a welder can have the resource node back up to full health before the "skilled" pack of skulks spawns again. Recyclign the resource node then rebuilding it again also does not cause much aof a net loss in resources.
-Marines CAN control half the map, before level 3 carapace. That's what the strategy does. Marines will have complete structural dominance over a vast portion (read: half) of the map, while the aliens will not be able to build there. A good rule to remember, is that anything withing the range of a siege is also within the range of quick marine response (assuming the siege is near a phase gate). If marines can reach an area faster from their spawn than aliens can, and aliens can't build structures there, then the area is controlled by the marines. And getting a phase gate and turret factory up and be done before level 3 carapace sets in.
- As long as there is a phase gate, mines, and 3-4 turrets, the siege outpost will stay alive, even against the best of skulks. All the sieges are, with little exception, all in the same room, so as long as the room is guarded, the sieges are too.
- Aliens will normally be too distracted trying to take out the marine outpost to worry about clearing hives. I don't care how "skilled" you say an alien team is, chances are, when they see this strat put into action, they'll attempt to attack either marine main or the siege outpost, not clear hives. Meatshield pointed this out perfectly a while ago, saying all he needed in PowerSilo the ENTIRE game was a phase gate. Because the aliens were so intent on keeping the marines out of generator room and viaduct hive and off the resources on the left side of the map, the hive was left wide open. Whether you decide to set up base in the neglected hive is moot. The point is , the aliens will NOT try to get a hvie up there, and if they do, they won't be able to defend it well while it builds (cargo to powersilo - yeah right).
-Hives require RESOURCES. 80, in fact. No matter how "skilled" you are, it's going to take a LONG time to raise 80 resources on 2 resource nodes (possibly less - once again, marines can harass "in packs" quite efficiently as well), especially when you're getting your three defense towers for level 3 carapace and rebuilding any resource nodes that marines kill.
-Aliens tend to build 3 resource towers before starting the hive, to maximize resource inflow. Assuming one of these is build in the hive that is to be taken, the sieges will take out 2 resource towers. Remember - as aliens, YOU DO NOT KNOW THE MARINES ARE PERFORMING THIS STRATEGY UNTIL IT IS TOO LATE. That's both 44 resources (read: and the time to build them) immediately wasted, as well as a much longer wait before the 80 resource mark is hit. Meanwhile, marines are free to tech up as they roam around the map hunting D towers, resource nodes, and gorges.
-Chances are, marines will have jetpacks and HMG's by the time the hive goes up, and it'll be killed before it finishes.
And to wrap things up, I will state AGAIN that this is an OFFENSIVE strategy. Not an offensive strategy that is very defensive, but an OFFENSIVE strategy. Only one or at most two marines will be needed to actually gaurd the bases - everyone else will be hunting gorges, resource nodes, defense towers. That's what the strategy allows them to do. Because they don't have to worry about the aliens having healing outposts or resource nodes anywhere nearby, the marines are allowed to constantly rush the hives themselves. If you're off harassing resource nodes or piggybanking for a hive, then chances are, the hive is undefended, and the marauding marines will kill it. 'Nuff said.
Now, for the love of god, just try the strategy against an alien team before you go picking holes in it that don't realistically exist (i.e. "as a skilled alien team, we can read the commander's mind, and know exactly what he's planning to do from the very beginning of the game, and will thereby know exactly what and what not to attack and how to go about attacking it, and will be able to organize packs of resource hunters while the marines sit with their thumbs up their butts defending their base"). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a very long post. Wonder how long you took to wrote that.
Remember, 2 hive lockdowns will do jack SHIIT in 1.1
a) Before carpace lvl3 shows up a single good marine, provided he is not caught in unsuited terrain, easily kills 2-3 skulks by himself. The loadout of the pistol and the lmg has the damage potential to kill 7 skulks without a reload. (I realize that no one takes on 7 skulks alone, I'm just trying to make a point about the balance of power) Carpace changes this to 2, thus shifting the balance significantly.
b) Once MT is researched patrolling becomes much easier, marines can now recieve the ability to see where the resource nodes are attacked.
If you are so convinced that this tactic will work on its own, please try it in clan play, which is really the true testing ground for tactics (imo)
If you pull off a single victory over an established clan, ill put my hands up and admit that i was wrong.
But personally, i am not convinced that this tactic will work without being in conjunction with, a two hive lock down, for instance.
Last post on this issue - nice flameproof discussion indeed, been a pleasure.
How do you get into these positions, at each point you need 1TF+upg, 2 seiges, PG minimum. And you'll probably want mines and turrets. How can you afford that? for example you are trying an 'old skool' 2 hive lock down then by the time you had to bases locked down aliens could already afford a hive they just had to get it. In this case its a two hive lockdown but with not in hives.
If you could do it quick enough then I can see the appeal but I don't see how you could do it very quickly.
If you did for example: what your build order is and where for one particular map it would help. Any chance of this?
In response to the perhaps slightly singed sej - Your right it won't work well in a clan match but I'd say this is much more a public statergy where 'varitey is king'. Another strat that actually makes tactical sense is great because as a comm you need to know every trick you can.
basically hes said what i wanted to say in a much more concise way
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
This Strategy sounds extreemely viable, and if I were Comm material I'd like to employ it on a regular basis to give my marines a nice change.
<a href='http://www.tribes2maps.com/ns/' target='_blank'>Here you go</a>