You seem to be in quite a tizzy again Dread. I suggest you take it down a notch, or I will for you. Especially the whiny little quotation marks around everything to show how indignant you are. If you can't handle the discussion forums, you will be removed from them.
Finnish land was occupied by Soviets for 15 years, undoubtedly with Finnish citizens living there. We helped because it was good for everyone. We had no real need to invade europe in '44 - we were perfectly safe, and the Germans would have bought our goods just as readily. There is, in my mind, no moral difference in freeing people who have no self-determination, either from internal coup (as in China), or from external invasion. It's all semantics, pretty much.
And I agree, Ryo's points were much better than yours. Much less hysterical and more cogent. However, here are some nice photos of the results of a duly-elected government. Perfectly legal elections, where a new chancellor rose to power in 1933 on the popular vote. What do you think? Did somebody screw up by putting an end to this? Was it an abridgement of their rights to have their legally-elected leader removed? Do you think we should have waited for them to lash out, or prevented this from happening...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, here are some nice photos of the results of a duly-elected government. Perfectly legal elections, where a new chancellor rose to power in 1933 on the popular vote. What do you think? Did somebody screw up by putting an end to this? Was it an abridgement of their rights to have their legally-elected leader removed? Do you think we should have waited for them to lash out, or prevented this from happening... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the fact is that the world didn't attack nazi Germany until it attacked Poland and brought the British and French into the war. Should the allied powers prior to WWII invaded Germany? Perhaps. Then again this could have lead to Stalin invading Europe, one thing that is certain is that Stalin was highly paranoid about Europe. That may have lead to a much larger conflict etcetera.
But the allies didn't attack the Soviet Union despite Stalin's destruction of 10 million kulaks, or the forced imprisonment and executions/worked to death of another 20 million plus people. What happened in Germany was horrific, just like the genocides in Turkey in 1915, or the death camps of Stalin. The differance between these occurances and the China internet issue is that the law against certain web sites isn't directly out to kill people. Hitler didn't slaughter the jews to keep his hold on power; he did it because of his own insane personal convictions.
I'm of course aware that the Chinese government executes dissidants and forces many of it's people to undertake harsh labour. Like Monse has said, it's hard playing the Devil's advocate. But we must ask ourselves if going into China and forcably taking out the leadership would be a good thing. For starters there's the immense humanitarian costs which would see probably millions of chinese soldiers killed and widespread disruption of power, food supply etc. The possible nuclear card being played which might see American and Chinese cities dissapear in massive radioactive blasts. The end result might well see a China far worse off than it was prior to the intervention of foreign powers (the fact that foreigners were invading would be golden propaganda for the Chinese government, invoking memories of the Opium Wars and the western controlled ports of the first half of the 20th century. This alone would rally vast regions of China behind the government)
China as it stands today is changing, the government is adopting capitalism, the people are becoming more forward thinking and the first glimars of democracy are approaching. If we sit back and let money and trade take it's course China will eventually change itself. By undertaking actions like releasing this software we give the Chinese government fuel to maintain it's grip on power. the old hard-liners see action like this and are able to call for stricter controls and the removal of "western" ways. This is another reason why I see this action as incorrect: it sets back the capitalisation of China.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Apr 21 2003, 08:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Apr 21 2003, 08:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You seem to be in quite a tizzy again Dread. I suggest you take it down a notch, or I will for you. Especially the whiny little quotation marks around everything to show how indignant you are. If you can't handle the discussion forums, you will be removed from them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I write how I write and I cant help it. Using whiny little quotation marks around everything is not breaking forum rules, even if you find them annoying. Also I wonder what in my post was so offending that im close to getting banned, imho I didn't violate any forum regulations there. Though, wouldn't be the first time for me to be wrong, but I would probably get a warning for using your kind of tone in my posts(Especially the whiny little quotation marks around everything to show how indignant you are). Oh well, I try to behave.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finnish land was occupied by Soviets for 15 years, undoubtedly with Finnish citizens living there. We helped because it was good for everyone. We had no real need to invade europe in '44 - we were perfectly safe, and the Germans would have bought our goods just as readily. There is, in my mind, no moral difference in freeing people who have no self-determination, either from internal coup (as in China), or from external invasion. It's all semantics, pretty much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finnish citizens moved from those areas because they were not occupied, we gave those areas to Russia after our people moved. If my memory serves me right, germans were developing nuclear bomb and Hitler had plans to bomb New York because he thought manhattan is the center of jewish power or something along those lines. Anyhow, I suggest we drop this side conversation as it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And I agree, Ryo's points were much better than yours. Much less hysterical and more cogent<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, that's probably because english is his 1st language. I have hard time writing in english what I actually mean. I would love to have this conversation face to face with my natural languge but no can do. One of the down sides of internet.
As a side note: I think if Hitler would have just stayed in Germany he would have probably been able to do anything he liked to the jews. And if i remember correctly, USA came in to the war after Germany started using its cruel submarine tactics and sank a ship with US citizens. Correct me if im wrong.
Also I find it interesting that you are fighting against your own statements in the starting post: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And is it our job to undermine the Chinese government (and to do the usual wild hand-wringingly nonsensical hippy extrapolation) and PUT THE WHOLE WORLD AT RISK BY ANTAGONZING ANOTHER DICTATORIAL NATION!!!???<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You conveniently ignore (or fail to understand) that that part was a joke poking fun at people who react like you typically do.
You are confused on the submarine tactics of Germany with WW1 - the sinking of the Lusitania. Not WW2. We came into war with Germany when Germany declared war on the US in WW2.
The difference between tone in the posts is that you are a guest, and I am a host. Your privileges do not extend beyond that, any more than us not allowing regular forum members to ban other members or alter their posts. The same standards are not applied, as unfair as that may seem to you. Feel free to go spend lots of money on your own forums, and treat me as you will there. In here, you have no rights.
This has gotten pretty off-topic. Rather than complaining to me here, send me PM's if you have any further tummyaches. You would do a lot better to simply drop it though and move on, as you will soon be removed from posting in this forum if you can't keep a level head and stop reacting so emotionally to everything. If your english isn't good enough to see that most of my replies are as a devil's advocate, and that I typically admit to that towards the end of a thread, you should not be here. Th eidea is to make peiople think about all sides of an issue, not just kneejerk react to everything. Think!
And I would disagree that Ryo's english is a first language - he's australian, and they speak with complete incomprehensibility to the world of English speakers... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Apr 22 2003, 10:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Apr 22 2003, 10:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And I would disagree that Ryo's english is a first language - he's australian, and they speak with complete incomprehensibility to the world of English speakers... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Says the American.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Apr 19 2003, 03:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Apr 19 2003, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Apr 18 2003, 03:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Apr 18 2003, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--*Dread*+Apr 18 2003, 04:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (*Dread* @ Apr 18 2003, 04:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's wrong. Very wrong. What rights USA has to step on Chinas toes and bypass their Government? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What right does the Chinese government have to <a href='http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA170562002?open&of=ENG-CHN' target='_blank'>execute you for going to a website they don't like?</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's their country and their government. It's a matter of opinion but I have always thought that if some country has decided to be dictatorship/communistic/democracy/whatever, I let them be. If people of that country really really want to change the government, they will. It's <b>Natural Selection</b> and shouldn't be interfered by others. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If your from Finland then you can't critize anything the Americans do as long as it is not toward Finland.
<!--QuoteBegin--Salty+Apr 22 2003, 10:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Salty @ Apr 22 2003, 10:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If your from Finland then you can't critize anything the Americans do as long as it is not toward Finland. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey, I can critize all I want as long as I don't break USA laws. Difference between interefering and talking about something.
We wouldn't even have this discussions forum if all the world conflicts would be solved verbally <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--[tbZ]BeAst+Apr 23 2003, 08:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([tbZ]BeAst @ Apr 23 2003, 08:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OK, time to draw a veil over this one.
We seem to lost all references to both China and t'internet.
Can someone do the do please. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh...
China! Internet! Software! Microsoft!
Done, you can thank me later <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Finnish land was occupied by Soviets for 15 years, undoubtedly with Finnish citizens living there.
We helped because it was good for everyone. We had no real need to invade europe in '44 - we were perfectly safe, and the Germans would have bought our goods just as readily.
There is, in my mind, no moral difference in freeing people who have no self-determination, either from internal coup (as in China), or from external invasion. It's all semantics, pretty much.
And I agree, Ryo's points were much better than yours. Much less hysterical and more cogent. However, here are some nice photos of the results of a duly-elected government. Perfectly legal elections, where a new chancellor rose to power in 1933 on the popular vote. What do you think? Did somebody screw up by putting an end to this? Was it an abridgement of their rights to have their legally-elected leader removed? Do you think we should have waited for them to lash out, or prevented this from happening...
<img src='http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gifs/74607.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<img src='http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gifs/ww2182.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<img src='http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/PICS31/80623.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
Food for thought, I hope, that it's not always as black and white as it appears in your classrooms.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the fact is that the world didn't attack nazi Germany until it attacked Poland and brought the British and French into the war. Should the allied powers prior to WWII invaded Germany? Perhaps. Then again this could have lead to Stalin invading Europe, one thing that is certain is that Stalin was highly paranoid about Europe. That may have lead to a much larger conflict etcetera.
But the allies didn't attack the Soviet Union despite Stalin's destruction of 10 million kulaks, or the forced imprisonment and executions/worked to death of another 20 million plus people. What happened in Germany was horrific, just like the genocides in Turkey in 1915, or the death camps of Stalin. The differance between these occurances and the China internet issue is that the law against certain web sites isn't directly out to kill people. Hitler didn't slaughter the jews to keep his hold on power; he did it because of his own insane personal convictions.
I'm of course aware that the Chinese government executes dissidants and forces many of it's people to undertake harsh labour. Like Monse has said, it's hard playing the Devil's advocate. But we must ask ourselves if going into China and forcably taking out the leadership would be a good thing. For starters there's the immense humanitarian costs which would see probably millions of chinese soldiers killed and widespread disruption of power, food supply etc. The possible nuclear card being played which might see American and Chinese cities dissapear in massive radioactive blasts. The end result might well see a China far worse off than it was prior to the intervention of foreign powers (the fact that foreigners were invading would be golden propaganda for the Chinese government, invoking memories of the Opium Wars and the western controlled ports of the first half of the 20th century. This alone would rally vast regions of China behind the government)
China as it stands today is changing, the government is adopting capitalism, the people are becoming more forward thinking and the first glimars of democracy are approaching. If we sit back and let money and trade take it's course China will eventually change itself. By undertaking actions like releasing this software we give the Chinese government fuel to maintain it's grip on power. the old hard-liners see action like this and are able to call for stricter controls and the removal of "western" ways. This is another reason why I see this action as incorrect: it sets back the capitalisation of China.
I write how I write and I cant help it. Using whiny little quotation marks around everything is not breaking forum rules, even if you find them annoying. Also I wonder what in my post was so offending that im close to getting banned, imho I didn't violate any forum regulations there. Though, wouldn't be the first time for me to be wrong, but I would probably get a warning for using your kind of tone in my posts(Especially the whiny little quotation marks around everything to show how indignant you are). Oh well, I try to behave.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finnish land was occupied by Soviets for 15 years, undoubtedly with Finnish citizens living there.
We helped because it was good for everyone. We had no real need to invade europe in '44 - we were perfectly safe, and the Germans would have bought our goods just as readily.
There is, in my mind, no moral difference in freeing people who have no self-determination, either from internal coup (as in China), or from external invasion. It's all semantics, pretty much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finnish citizens moved from those areas because they were not occupied, we gave those areas to Russia after our people moved. If my memory serves me right, germans were developing nuclear bomb and Hitler had plans to bomb New York because he thought manhattan is the center of jewish power or something along those lines. Anyhow, I suggest we drop this side conversation as it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And I agree, Ryo's points were much better than yours. Much less hysterical and more cogent<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, that's probably because english is his 1st language. I have hard time writing in english what I actually mean. I would love to have this conversation face to face with my natural languge but no can do. One of the down sides of internet.
As a side note: I think if Hitler would have just stayed in Germany he would have probably been able to do anything he liked to the jews. And if i remember correctly, USA came in to the war after Germany started using its cruel submarine tactics and sank a ship with US citizens. Correct me if im wrong.
Also I find it interesting that you are fighting against your own statements in the starting post:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And is it our job to undermine the Chinese government (and to do the usual wild hand-wringingly nonsensical hippy extrapolation) and PUT THE WHOLE WORLD AT RISK BY ANTAGONZING ANOTHER DICTATORIAL NATION!!!???<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You are confused on the submarine tactics of Germany with WW1 - the sinking of the Lusitania. Not WW2. We came into war with Germany when Germany declared war on the US in WW2.
The difference between tone in the posts is that you are a guest, and I am a host. Your privileges do not extend beyond that, any more than us not allowing regular forum members to ban other members or alter their posts. The same standards are not applied, as unfair as that may seem to you. Feel free to go spend lots of money on your own forums, and treat me as you will there. In here, you have no rights.
This has gotten pretty off-topic. Rather than complaining to me here, send me PM's if you have any further tummyaches. You would do a lot better to simply drop it though and move on, as you will soon be removed from posting in this forum if you can't keep a level head and stop reacting so emotionally to everything. If your english isn't good enough to see that most of my replies are as a devil's advocate, and that I typically admit to that towards the end of a thread, you should not be here. Th eidea is to make peiople think about all sides of an issue, not just kneejerk react to everything. Think!
And I would disagree that Ryo's english is a first language - he's australian, and they speak with complete incomprehensibility to the world of English speakers... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And I would disagree that Ryo's english is a first language - he's australian, and they speak with complete incomprehensibility to the world of English speakers... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Says the American.
/me runs
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Says the American.
/me runs <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Americans are easy to understand! Just remember the following:
Americans cross their southern border for cheap liquor and gas in a backwards country
Canadians cross their southern border for cheap liquor and gas in a backwards country
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>please do not evade the swear filter</b> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
What right does the Chinese government have to <a href='http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA170562002?open&of=ENG-CHN' target='_blank'>execute you for going to a website they don't like?</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's their country and their government. It's a matter of opinion but I have always thought that if some country has decided to be dictatorship/communistic/democracy/whatever, I let them be. If people of that country really really want to change the government, they will. It's <b>Natural Selection</b> and shouldn't be interfered by others. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your from Finland then you can't critize anything the Americans do as long as it is not toward Finland.
Hey, I can critize all I want as long as I don't break USA laws. Difference between interefering and talking about something.
We wouldn't even have this discussions forum if all the world conflicts would be solved verbally <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
We seem to lost all references to both China and t'internet.
Can someone do the do please.
We seem to lost all references to both China and t'internet.
Can someone do the do please. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh...
China! Internet! Software! Microsoft!
Done, you can thank me later <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->