Truform Support?
Guspaz
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2862Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2862Members, Constellation
I'm soon going to be replacing my GeForce 3 with a Radeon 9800 Pro, so it prompts this question:
When will TruForm be supported in Natural-Selection? I realize it supports it now as far as you can enable it and it applies it's affect, but it doesn't take long to realize from any TruForm enabled screenshots that it distorts the models.
When will Natural-Selection add support for proper application of the TruForm effect, if ever? I realize the need for low-poly models to maximize speed on slow computers, but support for TruForm would be a good way to let people with extra power available make the game look better <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
When will TruForm be supported in Natural-Selection? I realize it supports it now as far as you can enable it and it applies it's affect, but it doesn't take long to realize from any TruForm enabled screenshots that it distorts the models.
When will Natural-Selection add support for proper application of the TruForm effect, if ever? I realize the need for low-poly models to maximize speed on slow computers, but support for TruForm would be a good way to let people with extra power available make the game look better <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
It is basiclly allowing models to smooth out more, but it is on by defult, so they have made a client command to turn it off
ati_npatch
The game looks terrible with it on, everything is rounded and fat.
With the number of Radeon 8500, 9500, 9600, 9700 and 9800 (the only ones with Truform *fully* in hardware, if I'm not missing any) is growing steeply, and those with the additional processor power and software-cut Truform cards (Radeon 9000 most notably) as well.
Minor change to the models, major enhancement for a good section of the playerbase.
(edit)
Oh, and ati_npatch is defaulted to 0, not 1. Have to know what it is, and enable it, for it to become active.
(/edit)
yes.
Thing is, with Truform turned on, spammed stuff like turrets could be vertice-unwelded completely, so they'd never be subdivided at all, without looking any different (after all, they're laggy enough as-is) and having the file be only perhaps 2-5KB or so larger.. While things that could really benefit from Truform (player models, TFs, RTs, PGs, medpacks, ammo crates, Alien structures, Armories, CCs) could be selectively de-welded to keep what sharp corners are desired, while allowing the rest to round out and look shibby in-game.
If I could be sure that the animations wouldn't be broken (they shouldn't), and that it'd be received well and possibly moved to the standard models so us Truformers don't get model-consist errors playing with the standard models with TF optimizations, I'd even consider going through and fixing 'em myself. Only problem is, I'm not fully sure which parts ARE desired to be sharp-cornered, even on the Marine player models.
Well... that and figuring out how to unweld in Milkshape, given that my other 3D packages choke and die on importing skeletons. :b
Pick a model with which you think the difference between the three states (off, on+broken, on+fixed) is significant, and try fixing it to see what is affected. You never know, if you prove it can be done easily and with no side effects (on or off), popular support for it might arise! Or, you could do them yourself <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hope to hear more, TruForm is a big difference, and shouldn't be ignored by the NS modelers.
Just "fix" some models to display right in Truform, take before/after screenshots, post it here, compare.
I'm sure people will like it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi Adam,
I appreciate your suggestions on this topic, but at this time we have no
plans to support Truform. Though it may not seem like it, it is actually
quite a time consuming process to go into each and every model and figure
out all the vertices that need to be un-welded in order for the models to
view properly in trueform. I also have concerns about the effect this may
have on the animations, as well as possible performance issues beyond the
extra 100k file size.
At this stage it doesn't make sense to spend the time and energy into
supporting something which adds a small visual enhancement to the game for
a small segment of our playerbase, when we could be spending the time
getting new art into the game.
This isn't to say that we are completely closed to the idea, I would just
need to see definative test results showing that making the current models
Truform friendly will not break anything, as well as seeing comparisons
between regular NS models and truform NS models to show whether or not the
difference in quality is noticeable enough to warrant the time and extra
file sizes required.
Thanks.
--Cory Strader<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>The key part here is his last paragraph; if someone will step up to the bat and fix a model or two, we might get TruForm support!</b>
Visual impact would be greatly improved, but the frame-hit seems to be getting everyone down, for some reason. I can understand it on my R9000 Pro, as the Truform stuff was moved into software (aka: off the chip, into driver-emulation, heavy CPU hit) but the heavier cards should deal with it, no problem. Not sure how well I could do it and preserve the animations though, even if I could get the TF looking like something that should be supporting turrets, and not a VW Bug.
Obviously, the turrets themselves (excepting Sieges) would be completely unwelded given how much they're spammed, and how little visual quality would be gained due to the near-lack of curves that are *supposed* to be there.
Visual impact would be greatly improved, but the frame-hit seems to be getting everyone down, for some reason. I can understand it on my R9000 Pro, as the Truform stuff was moved into software (aka: off the chip, into driver-emulation, heavy CPU hit) but the heavier cards should deal with it, no problem. Not sure how well I could do it and preserve the animations though, even if I could get the TF looking like something that should be supporting turrets, and not a VW Bug.
Obviously, the turrets themselves (excepting Sieges) would be completely unwelded given how much they're spammed, and how little visual quality would be gained due to the near-lack of curves that are *supposed* to be there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the thing to reassure everyone of, and maybe this can be backed up with testing, is that making the models compatible will not give a framerate hit UNLESS you enable TruForm; people with it off, or incompatible cards, shouldn't notice a difference.
As for the turrets, I think they could benefit, but I think testing would have to be done to see what kind of a framerate hit would be had with and without them "TruForm'd". There are several places they could benefit, such as the magazine looping around the back, and the central barrel part at the front of the gun that spins.
I suppose there are two first steps that should be taken:
1) Completely unweld some or all of the models and compare framerates to see if non-truform cards would be affected in any way (speed wise)
2) Modify one or two models to support TruForm and make a side-by-side comparison with the original to show the visual difference.
Theory and reality might be the same, but sometimes you have to prove it to people none the less <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
In that case, if the TruForm fixes were to be implemented, simply leave TruForm disabled for no performance hit. Those who want the higher poly models can enable TruForm.