Ending Stalemates
Vangor
Join Date: 2002-05-22 Member: 655Members
Join Date: 2002-05-22 Member: 655Members
<div class="IPBDescription">The Nancy Subspace Dilemma Unveiled</div> Now, many people may not be familiar with the Nancy Subspace Dilemma. This results when the Kharaa take both Port Engine and Noname, and Marines have taken Subspace. Further still, is that when the Kharaa finally broke the Marines, they had sufficient techs, and merely moved to Subspace. Why is Subspace so difficult you may wonder? Surely the hordes of Fades can quickly overrun Marines with one res tower. Unfortunately, this is not so simple, and I have played games that have lasted 4 hours in the stalemate of Nancy Subspace alone.
Why is it so difficult though? Firstly, the hallway. Because of its shape, an HMG Marine or two can ward off Fades attempting to move in, while GL Marines, especially two, can stand around the armory (armory humping), fire three rounds, and resupply, firing grenades in an endless stream. Second, the only other way in other than a weldable area which, Marines obviously don't plan to open for you anytime soon, is a vent system located at the top. Unfortunately, anything that can fit through there, will find it near impossible to dent HA/HMG Marines, and a hail of bullets from respawning Marines will strike through you just as simply. Generally, a good HA'd Marine can survive for enough time that a singular resource tower can supply another with HA, and a few extra resources. If there is a cache of res before relocating the base, then HMG's, GL's, and Welder's are all readily available, and they can be picked up once again by respawning Marines, guarded by the stream of Grenades as they retrieve their lost weapons.
Now, I am sure everyone believes that, five or six Fades could surely Blink directly in and wipe them out, especially if Lerks reinforce. Unfortunately, while they could do much of that, passing through a wall of flame has dire effects for the Kharaa, and Umbra will not stop grenades, so consider yourself at 50-75% before entering if you are a Fade, and near dead as a Lerk. Because Umbra does not stop fully all bullets, and it is safe to bet that a Fade or two will be left out of the Umbra, possibly all if they are infact Blinking, as they move to far away generally in the large room. So, remove the two Lerks and two Fades from the equation, you are left with around four Fades, and you have done little actual damage, and remember, those Fades are at 50% and below now. You may be surprised to find out how much damage an HMG or more can do through Umbra.
So, we see that this situation is quite difficult, and more than likely, you may hurt the Marines by taking down an IP or HA, however, few people besides unequipped Marines die in these fights, and therefore, you do little but delay people that are merely pelting you. And, if you concentrated on an IP or HA, it is merely a small matter of time until a new one takes its place. Infact, a problem arises here, if the Marine team is good enough, they can often harvest their resources and make a push, forcing you to temporarily withdraw, until the Marines sustain sufficient losses and retreat to the safety of the controlled hive.
And, through all of this, we arrive at a stalemate. Kharaa will die every few minutes, and respawn, re-evolve, and go back into battle. Marines will die, their weapons will be taken, they will be respawned, and new equipment is dropped. Mostly, this occurs at Nancy's Subspace, as its architecture allows for feverishly kept, but withstanding defenses. As well, the Kharaa must fight feverishly, leaping into combat, and running back for health, only to leap back in.
However, during a round that I had just played in, a new tactic I had yet to see, was put into action. Infact, I did not think it could possibly work, nor does it seem do most people realize it can. Also, I should say that while this tactic can be used, the design of Nancy's Subspace makes this tactic the most effective, but merely transfer parts specific to Subspace into whatever you find necessary.
-Movement Chamber Hive Rush-
First, everyone must be prepared to move in a moment's notice. Two Fades for every three Marines is an almost absolute must here, generally meaning six to eight Fades will be necessary. I would suggest having Lerks evolve into Fades, as Lerks do little good in this hectic battlefield, as I wrote above.
Now, gather around Movement Chambers, more than likely near the enemy's base, to not allow them to make a hard press and foil your plans by eliminating half of the map, which a good group of HA/HMG Marines can do in a matter of minutes if allowed to.
A Kharaa, more than likely a Gorge, must transform into a Skulk/Lerk, though Lerk is often best for a mixture of speed and stealth, as the flapping of wings can only be faintly heard, and is often drowned by the rages of battle, whereas the Skulk's Leap attack makes a definite, high screech, that can alert Marines. When you have evolved, quickly move to the vent area above Subspace, before the vertical chute and vent opening, and still partially out of sight. Then, evolve into a Gorge once again, and when completed, await 80 resources.
Then, alert your team to be ready, and have them be prepared to use the Movement Chamber when necessary. Drop down into the vertical chute, and go to your interface screen, select build, and build a Hive.
When it begins to build, often Marines or Sentry/Siege Turrets, will begin to attack it. The second its Hive Build Icon in the upper right corner of your screen flashes red, everyone must then use the Movement Chamber. This will teleport them inside of Subspace, allowing them to wreak havoc at will.
It is definitely to your advantage to target the Proto Lab, as well as the Infantry Portals and possibly Armory, though select a target before hand. If it is known they have more than three Infantry Portals, I would definetly suggest attacking the Proto Lab and then Armory, you may possibly, if able to quickly lay waste to Marines, destroy the three or less Infantry Portals to grind them to a near halt. Proto Labs will force them to raise well above the cost of an HMG, HA, or GL they generally save for, and the build time will also force them to be without HA/JP's for even longer, while the Armory will take a small sum from them, and delay the steady fire of GL's as one is rebuilt. Also, as a possible extra bonus, I think you cannot build a Proto Lab without an Armory still up, so they will be further without HA/JP's (someone please confirm yes/no).
Some might find a problem in this, the vent, with a JP able to kill any Lerks or Skulks attempting to move into that vent. There are three tactics to get around this. First, evolve further back, and you can web up the vent, before any JP gets in there, or directly web the JP'r and switch between healspray/web to slay him, then place the hive. Second, is you need to get Celerity for your Gorge, as well as Carapace more than likely. As you rush in through the main hall, web, and make your way around the pillar, and hope you can set up the hive.
Third is the most difficult and time consuming. You need to turn into a Skulk before hand, and allow the Fade to get up into a vent, and boost him anywhere else he may need. Once on the top floor, with no drops in your path, transform into a Gorge, and have the Fade kill anything before you, and move out with you.
Why is it so difficult though? Firstly, the hallway. Because of its shape, an HMG Marine or two can ward off Fades attempting to move in, while GL Marines, especially two, can stand around the armory (armory humping), fire three rounds, and resupply, firing grenades in an endless stream. Second, the only other way in other than a weldable area which, Marines obviously don't plan to open for you anytime soon, is a vent system located at the top. Unfortunately, anything that can fit through there, will find it near impossible to dent HA/HMG Marines, and a hail of bullets from respawning Marines will strike through you just as simply. Generally, a good HA'd Marine can survive for enough time that a singular resource tower can supply another with HA, and a few extra resources. If there is a cache of res before relocating the base, then HMG's, GL's, and Welder's are all readily available, and they can be picked up once again by respawning Marines, guarded by the stream of Grenades as they retrieve their lost weapons.
Now, I am sure everyone believes that, five or six Fades could surely Blink directly in and wipe them out, especially if Lerks reinforce. Unfortunately, while they could do much of that, passing through a wall of flame has dire effects for the Kharaa, and Umbra will not stop grenades, so consider yourself at 50-75% before entering if you are a Fade, and near dead as a Lerk. Because Umbra does not stop fully all bullets, and it is safe to bet that a Fade or two will be left out of the Umbra, possibly all if they are infact Blinking, as they move to far away generally in the large room. So, remove the two Lerks and two Fades from the equation, you are left with around four Fades, and you have done little actual damage, and remember, those Fades are at 50% and below now. You may be surprised to find out how much damage an HMG or more can do through Umbra.
So, we see that this situation is quite difficult, and more than likely, you may hurt the Marines by taking down an IP or HA, however, few people besides unequipped Marines die in these fights, and therefore, you do little but delay people that are merely pelting you. And, if you concentrated on an IP or HA, it is merely a small matter of time until a new one takes its place. Infact, a problem arises here, if the Marine team is good enough, they can often harvest their resources and make a push, forcing you to temporarily withdraw, until the Marines sustain sufficient losses and retreat to the safety of the controlled hive.
And, through all of this, we arrive at a stalemate. Kharaa will die every few minutes, and respawn, re-evolve, and go back into battle. Marines will die, their weapons will be taken, they will be respawned, and new equipment is dropped. Mostly, this occurs at Nancy's Subspace, as its architecture allows for feverishly kept, but withstanding defenses. As well, the Kharaa must fight feverishly, leaping into combat, and running back for health, only to leap back in.
However, during a round that I had just played in, a new tactic I had yet to see, was put into action. Infact, I did not think it could possibly work, nor does it seem do most people realize it can. Also, I should say that while this tactic can be used, the design of Nancy's Subspace makes this tactic the most effective, but merely transfer parts specific to Subspace into whatever you find necessary.
-Movement Chamber Hive Rush-
First, everyone must be prepared to move in a moment's notice. Two Fades for every three Marines is an almost absolute must here, generally meaning six to eight Fades will be necessary. I would suggest having Lerks evolve into Fades, as Lerks do little good in this hectic battlefield, as I wrote above.
Now, gather around Movement Chambers, more than likely near the enemy's base, to not allow them to make a hard press and foil your plans by eliminating half of the map, which a good group of HA/HMG Marines can do in a matter of minutes if allowed to.
A Kharaa, more than likely a Gorge, must transform into a Skulk/Lerk, though Lerk is often best for a mixture of speed and stealth, as the flapping of wings can only be faintly heard, and is often drowned by the rages of battle, whereas the Skulk's Leap attack makes a definite, high screech, that can alert Marines. When you have evolved, quickly move to the vent area above Subspace, before the vertical chute and vent opening, and still partially out of sight. Then, evolve into a Gorge once again, and when completed, await 80 resources.
Then, alert your team to be ready, and have them be prepared to use the Movement Chamber when necessary. Drop down into the vertical chute, and go to your interface screen, select build, and build a Hive.
When it begins to build, often Marines or Sentry/Siege Turrets, will begin to attack it. The second its Hive Build Icon in the upper right corner of your screen flashes red, everyone must then use the Movement Chamber. This will teleport them inside of Subspace, allowing them to wreak havoc at will.
It is definitely to your advantage to target the Proto Lab, as well as the Infantry Portals and possibly Armory, though select a target before hand. If it is known they have more than three Infantry Portals, I would definetly suggest attacking the Proto Lab and then Armory, you may possibly, if able to quickly lay waste to Marines, destroy the three or less Infantry Portals to grind them to a near halt. Proto Labs will force them to raise well above the cost of an HMG, HA, or GL they generally save for, and the build time will also force them to be without HA/JP's for even longer, while the Armory will take a small sum from them, and delay the steady fire of GL's as one is rebuilt. Also, as a possible extra bonus, I think you cannot build a Proto Lab without an Armory still up, so they will be further without HA/JP's (someone please confirm yes/no).
Some might find a problem in this, the vent, with a JP able to kill any Lerks or Skulks attempting to move into that vent. There are three tactics to get around this. First, evolve further back, and you can web up the vent, before any JP gets in there, or directly web the JP'r and switch between healspray/web to slay him, then place the hive. Second, is you need to get Celerity for your Gorge, as well as Carapace more than likely. As you rush in through the main hall, web, and make your way around the pillar, and hope you can set up the hive.
Third is the most difficult and time consuming. You need to turn into a Skulk before hand, and allow the Fade to get up into a vent, and boost him anywhere else he may need. Once on the top floor, with no drops in your path, transform into a Gorge, and have the Fade kill anything before you, and move out with you.
Comments
We did this on voogrus server a few times to break subspace, when the uber turrets where there, t works very nicely, big suprise as the fades do literaly pop up out of nowhere <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Two of my last four games ran 2+ hours. The marines relocate to a hive and tech up. The aliens properly defend for a JP rush. The marine JP rush fails, the (resource-poor) marines turtle, and the game grinds to a halt.
Brilliant idea. I though of same thing and pulled this off some weeks ago. But not on that hive.
Then their was that other time we didnt have motion and just threw a hive up for distraction while skulks took down everything.
And then there was one of my other crazy ideas. As a marine while marine base was completly being over run by fades i had com build chair then observatory under lightly defended hive. Whole team dead 90% of time except com and me and then bam, distress beacon. We spawned we build like mad and we killed and relocated under the hive before it was even dead. Then we killed it all within seconds. Being that we still had the third hive defended we almost won. the fades returned and did a hefty amount of damage before we kileld em and before we could get heavies again the carapaced/celerity skulks overran us. It was a depressing lost.
And Hendrickson, I can't exactly follow what you are saying. On one part, it sounds like you said you didn't have motion tracking on Kharaa, which you can't, and another it sounds like you said a distress beacon was used and they were transported to the being claimed hive. So, you may want to rephrase your post into something actually readable.
I also believe the area between subspace, and the marine start favors the marines, some areas in mess hall can favor the aliens, but thats about it. There are 4 res towers between subspace and the marine start, so it is very hard to keep clear as an alien once the marines get a phase, upgrades, or turrets in these places.
Good Job! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> *two thumbs up*
Siege didn't allow us to have many structures nearby, and we literally did your movement chamber rush about 15 times.
The game was like 8 on 8 and for some reason they kept 1 grenade launcher alive for like 2 hours, just constantly spamming the entrance. If you got by that, you had to live against level 3 turrets- about 20 of them.
We finally broke through their base by having 6 fades blink in and destroy A turret. Just 1. But then we all died, re-evolved and did it again. Eventually, we downed enough turrets to make a dent. Then a lucky skulk got the TF. But the upgraded marines were still able to hold us off until they got a new TF in place.
But our damage was done, and we were able to finish them off after 2 or 3 more oppressive rushes.
To sum things up, YES: Subspace is a real pain to get in.
This is a useful tactic which I've used on I think all the maps now. It's got to be done, because the longer the marines turtle, the more likely they are to all get fully equipped, then you will have problems (I've won several games as marines in this situation, most notably when we were forced to relocate to engine room and ended up turtled in there for about 1/2 hour. Eventually the aliens couldn't keep attacking and we were able to move out and blast both hives (phear my l337 jp/welder rush!).
The key to winning turtle games is to innovate promptly!
My preffered order of munching is:
OBS (unless you have lamed up marine start)
IPs
Armoury
Proto/Arms
That's in the final push stage of the game. Other than that I like to take doen the obs first, then arms lab, then IPs/proto and armoury.
not to mention the res point... if marines only have one, it'll be a LONG time before they can build anything else!
I never know that you could mc to an unbuit hive though! I've seen hives built to distract them and allow a rush but this is very intereseting...
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> = no <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
-snozzle
Another stalemate situation that happens sometimes, marines get cargo, we get powersilo, viaduct, but fail to breach into cargo due ha/hmg/jp/gl & heavy defenses.. we fought against them like 2 hours, but they pushed us back and finally we lost viaduct... and it was all over.
The "MC tactic" could have worked in that situation, if skulk would have got trough their minefield and hide somewhere, evolve, wait for resources and drop MC's, everything as possible, but it would have to be timed well. Gotta try that someday.
If marines relocate to cargo, only they station themselves round the corner instead of in the hive, then this tactic works a TREAT, but tbh you HAVE to get cara and rush cargo to stop them there and then, because sitting on 3 res nodes (yes they're pretty easy to take down though) is going to finish you before you can get fades...
Not before umbra usually though.
Roo
I can't see how i could be a good idea.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=25759&hl=spammy' target='_blank'>Killing Spammy Stalemating Marines, Nancy Subspace Array Interface</a>
I can't see how i could be a good idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why by never, ever letting the marines out of their spawn!
It's that simple, silly head!
</SARCASM>