Ecstasy Meets Agony...a Shame...

Daemonlaud · May 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">that doesn't contain the word 'bite'.</div> Well gentlemen...

1.1 is a new game in many ways.

But it appears that, whatever changes, the phasegate tech has been finally bumped up a notch on the tech tree.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>O Added a "phase gate tech" upgrade on observatory that's required for phase gates.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I give an exhausted, but oh so satisfied <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=18124&hl=corollary' target='_blank'>sigh <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>.</a>

***

However, though 1.1 looks to be a fresh reworking of everyone's favourite genre-busting multiplayer wonderwork - every silver lining has a cloud attatched, and apart from all the inconsolable lerk pilots and babbler-fetishists, it is with a heavy heart that I take a nasty kick to the teeth...

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>O Removed alien "frags" in scoreboard (they show up for both teams in tournament mode)</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

A terrible, terrible shame - and it seems, a loss of focus on the part of the devs.

Marines had no scores, aliens did - was there a simpler and clearer message to a player about the roles and gameplay of the teams the first time he or she entered a game than that straightfoward contrivance?

Marines are a singularly centralised and coordinated force; aliens a group of individuals working towards a goal. So for marines scores didn't mean a thing, having them there was both inaccurate and a distraction (who is to say which marine out of the 5 pounding an onos 'deserved' the frag - and why are you looking anyway - Move to your waypoint, Soldier!).

For aliens however...what was a better way of measuring the skulk with the most aggressive temprament and viscious tactics? The small level of friendly competition between the players of the alien team was a minor sub-game of any public server, and added significantly to both the fun and the immersion of the alien players. One frag behind the leading skulk, you FELT like a blood-thirsty quadraped assassin craving your next taste of the red stuff...you wanted nothing more than to indiscriminantly and suicidally run into a marine group for the sake of taking even one of the filthy two-lgeged intruders down...but you could wait, yes, yes you could, for a little bit, perhaps...if it meant catching <i>two</i> instead of one...<i>**gnashes itchy teeth**</i>

That part of the game is lost for us now (not in tournament mode maybe, but in clan wars there is nothing but the purest focus on the team anyway, the stakes there means there is never any time for rivalries and roleplaying fun), and I for one shed a tear for the loss of my competitive satation.

Apart from anything else it was an extremely fun and popular component to the game - a remarkable bonus when you consider it had no balance or gameplay impact.

The only people I ever saw complaining about the alien scoreboard were those who were always at the bottom of it.

***

Another minor point to consider:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>O Changed scanner sweeps to use energy. They slowly gain energy, and so can be used for scanning only every so often. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Could this not be construed as yet another nerf to siege?

RyoOhki · May 2003

Whilst the game originally stated that the aliens would be more individual, the actual gameplay has shown this to be false. The aliens have to work as a team just about as much as the marines do; having scores for the aliens encourages behaviour like frag-hunting and "I have teh most kills, therefore I have teh most skillz!!!!11". NS is a team game, regardless of which side you play. The removal of the scores for aliens merely affirms this.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Another minor point to consider:

QUOTE
O Changed scanner sweeps to use energy. They slowly gain energy, and so can be used for scanning only every so often.

Could this not be construed as yet another nerf to siege? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

No, it isn't a nerf. For starters, from my readings each obs has their own energy level. Obs are dirt cheap, simply throw down 2 or 3 and you got all the scans you'll need. The fact that scans cost no resources now is an excellent move. Also, you can still spot stuff per usual. I can't see how this change will alter much beyond commanders using proper timing on dropping scans.

pardzh · May 2003

I don't understand what's bad about removing Alien scores from the scoreboard. It was really just suggesting you can rambo as an Alien, but you can't. You still need to work as a team, just like the Marines do.

Daemonlaud · May 2003

Aliens are more individuals. The only exception to this is a clan war.

This fact is self evident, not debatable - a lone skulks can possibly take down 3, 4, or 5 marines, and regularly can be seen to do so in a public server. One marine, confronted with 2, let alone 5, skulks, often simply cannot physically deal enough damage to carapaced opponents in order to not die without teamates.

A marine building is helpless. Skulks don't build.

A marine alone is blind - he has no hivesight to know of his entire team is being slaughtered around the next corner.

Marines are slow and immobile, and do not rely on stealth.

Early game skulks are the precise opposite of early game marines in all ways.

Fact of life: Alien team members work alone in about 90% of all gameplay. At least part of this is correct and important gameplay - skulks are needed to scout resources and other locations, and to keep tabs on marine advancement/movement. The rest is public n00bism/uncoordination. But neither of these aspects are going to go anywhere.

Marines generally can't be sent alone to scout a location - certainly not if they are expecting to survive or perform any useful function. Yet this is standard skulk practice.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>having scores for the aliens encourages behaviour like frag-hunting</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Most certainly this is true.

It is also a good thing.

Most public alien games are lost simply because skulks are not aggressive enough. If skulks aren't out hunting, killing and spotting marines, what exactly are they doing? Hiding in corners saving up to go gorge and put a useless lone OC in the corner of the map?

Skulks ARE fraghunters.

But 'fraghunting' certainly doesn't preclude teamwork.

The skulk knows that team objectives take priority over personal vendettas - how miuch 'fraghunting' will I do against heavy armour?

I know if I want to assault marine spawn, I am not going to even take four steps without backup. So I will of course gather the boys to go in.

From that situation, it is obviously better to have more motivated skulks trying their damndest to take down as many marines as possible - the better for personal glory and bloodlust than some nebulous team objective which may seem somewhat distant and disinteresting in the heat of combat.

Simple observation - there are plenty of servers with alien scores disabled.
They are universally:
i) less intense and enjoyable to play on
ii) more frustrating to play aliens on - the damn players just don't want to kill things as much, and so marines often expand unchecked.

Note again that this is obviously irrelevant to clan war / tournament situations, but most of the NS playing going on is not of this kind.

Snidely · May 2003

Didn't you post more or less the same thing here? [<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=32026' target='_blank'>link</a>]

Guillaume777 · May 2003

The Devs should at least include the option to put alien scores back in…

noelephant · May 2003

I like the alien scores. It turns me into a bloodthirsty skulk all right, especially if I'm only a few frags away from being the 'top skulk' :-D (I agree with the authoer of the post in this respect.)

On the other hand, I don't carry it to the extreme and try to get kills at the expense of more important things like freeing a hive of pesky marines.

I also find it less fun playing on the servers with alien scores disabled.

I agree with the lack of marine scores. It reflects the way I play as a marine. When another marine kills an alien that is about to eat me, I breathe a sigh of releaf and thank them. I probably wouldn't be concerned about kill stealing / high scoring as a marine even with scores.

greyfox5 · May 2003

You cant judge intill you play. No alien scores actually makes it more fun now. Aliens throw thier tiny meaningless lives away just to get at one marine gaurding a res tower, or just to annoy marines. Now people wont worry about thier score, score doesnt matter in this game, the only thing that matters is if the <i>team</i> wins!

Flayra · May 2003

I don't feel particularly strongly either way on this issue, so I ran a poll awhile ago, asking everyone what they thought. The answers overwhelmingly favored removal of the players scores, so I removed them. I don't feel like it was a lapse of vision or focus, I'm perfectly happy with the situation.

The aliens really do have to play as a team to win. They can move around the map in loose groups and can quickly run back to protect something (unlike the marines) but in the end, they need to concentrate their forces to defend or attack the most effectively. Clans will play like this to win, so the game must be balanced as such, so it must be encouraged in pubs as well.

neonfaktory · May 2003

I agree with Demon...

Here's an example. 2 Marines come upon an OC. SOO many times I've seen them just run away, "We need GL!"...
Now imagine if killing that OC gave them a personal incentive... like a frag count. They'd be <i>all over</i> it - which they should! It wouldn't be "Man, I'm not attack that thing, all it's gonna get me is time in the respawn queue." It'd be "OMG, stationary frag!"

NOW, don't misenterpert me, I'm not suggesting Marines get frag counts - This one positive result doesn't nearly outway the negative that would become of implementing that - Marines will just have to learn themselves that OCs can be taken out thusly.

But bring this to the Alien team. That is thier <i>entire game</i>! "OMG a Marine... screw it, it's not worth risking waiting in respawn queue." as opposed to "Hmm, maybe I'll pull it off and get a frag... one frag closer to beating that bum who's above me on the scoreboard." *<i>Crazy, Animal-like tactics follow</i>*

<b>However</b>, while that little special something will be missing from my Alien game, I'm sure I'll have just as much fun. One thing still remains; the Internet Game Public is an untameable animal. Yeah, there's a group people (me included) that can find greater reward in playing as a team, can look ahead at the ultimate goal and be motivated without instantaneous reward... but that isn't so for a HUGE group of players. The scoreboard may be the only thing that drives them as a skulk on Aliens, excluding the mutual long-term goal of getting higher tech. And please no "GOOD, we don't want them playing NS" responses... fact of the matter is you'd rather be playing with them than none at all. I dunno, I'm going to have to go to work soon though. Just some thoughts I had.

In the end, I think I would like to maybe even see the Kills kept and deaths removed, as the ultimate, no consequences drive to make them aliens go CRaZY. "Crazy" would be the majority, but there will always be room for teamwork when certain aspects are threatened. Something as simple as them attacking a little OC farm in a little outward push is enough to get people to group up, and <b>team</b> up to attack the enemy. That's just where I see things atm and I'm always open to consider new ideas/opinions.

DDTrini_Lopez · May 2003

I like that the alien scores have been removed .
I'm not a very good skulk against players , but I'm quite good in locating the bad point of any marine base and I often just run to the TF , bite several times , die , repeat till TF is down . If the other people that go for kills start yelling at me that I suck because of my socre, well ... who stopped marine base from expanding ? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

Speed_2_Dave · May 2003

ok, I've read *most* (some are just repeats of old arguments so I assume they tapered off the same way they have since release) of the replies to this thread and I'm going to have to side with the no scores crowd. No score for the aliens remove the individualism which loses the game for aliens. I play on a pub that has enough competent commanders that, even with just 2 competent marine sidekicks, they can dominate a map if the aliens can't organize counter-attacks at key locations. Having a scoreboard encourages aliens to do "better" than their brethren, which often leads to a lack of willingness to sacrifice yourself so your buddy can get in there and CHOMPEH the enemy. Without scores, no one will know who sacrifices themself, and who actually gets through because of the sacrifice. I like the idea, and I used to be for scores (until I started playing on good servers), but no scores really puts the focus on the game, and not the player.

BTW: I doubt he's removing status, so you score-hogs can still see them, it's just that no one else will have to care about them anymore.

FlyFlown · May 2003

It has already been discussed and there was a poll so now it is how players wanted it to be... Accept it man <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Fieari · May 2003

I was once one of those advocating no scores for either team. But then I was convinced otherwise, and agree that alien scores encourage better alien play.

Kazyras · May 2003

If you believe alien scores made some skulks reticent to attack aggressively, there is an easy solution: remove the death count. Keep only keep the frag column. Having no penalty for dying and a strong incentive to be aggresive should fix the problem.

If you want to reward the RT/structure chewers, you could make it so that at every 250 point of damage (just a number I'm throwing in) dealt to a marine structure, they get 1 more frag.

In fact, you could elaborate a entire point system for the aliens based on the damage dealth to marines (rewards aggressiveness), damage dealt to structures (rewards RT hunting and tactical strikes), and every parasite landed on non parasited marines and perhaps a few marine strucures such as phase gates and TFs (rewards scouting.)

People who already play for the team won't care about it. I'm often at the top of the alien scoreboard and I couldn't possibly care less. People playing for glory might find a new incentive to stick with their teammates. Instead of "I won't rush the marine base with my team because I'll probably get another death and no frags, I'll just go back to killing random newbies wandering cluelessly around the map", they will be thinking "I might stack of a lot of points before dying! Woot! Count me in!"

neonfaktory · May 2003

Kazyras has got the idea. I had mentioned at the end of my post that I think showing Kills and not Deaths would work well, and I kind of like the idea Kazyras has about points (had made a Ideas & Suggestions post similar to it).

And when you think of it, it fits well for the aliens. Like, dominance within the pack. Territory claiming-like. I dunno, seems like it fits <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'> .

Fina · May 2003

I don't really care either way. With it is a good way to show which of the players are better offensively. On the other hand, players that play a very important role outside of the action, such as Gorges, show at the bottom of the list, despite being as important as the player on the front lines with the most kills.

It's also worth mentioning the difference between teamPLAY and teamWORK.

Aliens are teamplay, working individually for the better of the whole.
Marines are teamwork, working together for the better of the whole.

Firespirit · May 2003

i wouldnt care either way
scores give motivation, but make rambo skulks
while no scores make it completly opposite

but i think there should be an option to put or take away the personal [B]KILLS

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> works

Brave_Ulysses · May 2003

I love it when I take part in a Kharaa group that automatically plays as a team. You get some people giving directions about enemy locations over voice comm. As a skulk I can ambush marines, rush marine bases to buy time for various Kharaa structures to go up, bodyguard fatties, etc. I love seeing people turn into lerks not just because they like flapping around, but so that they can umbra fades when fades attack a roomful of turrets & marines, and so on.

So yeah - I certainly side with this score removal routine.

Daemonlaud · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don't feel particularly strongly either way on this issue, so I ran a poll awhile ago, asking everyone what they thought. The answers overwhelmingly favored removal of the players scores, so I removed them. I don't feel like it was a lapse of vision or focus, I'm perfectly happy with the situation.

The aliens really do have to play as a team to win. They can move around the map in loose groups and can quickly run back to protect something (unlike the marines) but in the end, they need to concentrate their forces to defend or attack the most effectively. Clans will play like this to win, so the game must be balanced as such, so it must be encouraged in pubs as well.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Flayra: thanks for replying.

The loss of 'focus' I mentioned stems from it being an obvious deviation from the themes and backstory we have been given - but with no real consumate gameplay improvement.

I find the information on the poll very curious. When was this poll? I think maybe it should be redone <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>
The overwhelming majority of players I have seen or spoken to about the issue have either felt strongly that it should remain, or had no real opinion on it whatsoever.

I love NS, and a blind babbler could see that the changes of 1.1 are overall a massive improvement to an already accesable and deep game - particularly in the top competitive enviroments.

But in the public servers - the place where new players begin, casual enjoyment of the game occurs and personal skills are honed, the scoreboard has always added a dimension to the game which is seriously lacking with it gone. It was also a clear message of differentiation between the two teams to new players, and added game-level proximity to the excellent and thorough backstory which has all too small relevance to actual play.

And after all, this is public we are talking about - why not let people have their glory? It has always done more good than harm as far as I have seen, and will fit in so well with the more common employment of 'assassin' kit skulks who hunt or ambush marines (as distinct from carapaced/celerity 'assault' or 'scout' evolution kits) with movement/sensory in 1.1.

***

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Didn't you post more or less the same thing here? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Obviously I did snide <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>
There are some quite different people and views on the general and suggestions forums respectively, and I wanted to hear a broad response to an issue which quite significantly impacts my enjoyment of normal play.
The topic was relevant to both forums' charter, so I repeated the post in both - so far there has been little overlap in response, so my judgment in this appears to be sound.

***

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If you believe alien scores made some skulks reticent to attack aggressively, there is an easy solution: remove the death count. Keep only keep the frag column. Having no penalty for dying and a strong incentive to be aggresive should fix the problem.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

An excellent notion, of course. But a choice between old style scores and no scores at all is no choice at all - I hate flying blind.

And is it not endlessly frustrating to have nothing distinguishing a ladder leading professional from a first day newbie? Who does the server listen to? The one calling for people to gather for an attack on the double res and to get res/first round upgrades up; or the chap calling for the apparently sensible measure of spending all efforts towards placing OCs around the place?

The score tells you who has been playing long enough to know a winning tactic from a losing one - by being a winner.

Ah_forget_it · May 2003

I'm glad it's gone TBH, fed up with having people go "I won the game for us - I r0x0r". It's usually the gorge who has mebe 1 on two kills and has blocked off the hive so succesfully and the lerk who has none but supported throughout that deseve the accolades.

What always impresses me most on a game are the guys and gals who play these support roles and say nothing but just go on and do their job. I salute you <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> Especially with 1.1 and the lerks role as purely support it is going to be even more important to withdraw Alien scoring.

As for identifying the one with the most scores as the most experienced and one to follow, what happens at the start of the game and what if they aren't the best leader but only a good chomper?

Brave_Ulysses · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ah forget it @ May 15 2003, 08:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> What always impresses me most on a game are the guys and gals who play these support roles and say nothing but just go on and do their job. I salute you <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
<img src='http://www-lep.gsfc.nasa.gov/lepedu/yes.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

Ecstasy Meets Agony...a Shame...

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