<!--QuoteBegin--Mart+May 19 2003, 12:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mart @ May 19 2003, 12:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But now i'm curious to know, gorges and onos, they still get to bunnyhop too? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure, why not, who knows how agile a fade or onos is.
MartOrigin of SUYFJoin Date: 2002-02-26Member: 248Members
Generally you can tell how agile something is by looking at it, Marines wear bulky armour meaning they aren't, skulks are small thin and can climb walls. Gorges look a little too fat to be agile, and their running speed isnt particularly fast. Onos however... yeesh.
maybe make all aliens except onos jump like mad <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
they don't jump from wall to wall do they? fades shouldn't neither as they are biped like marines, but I suppose their blink is proof of surnatural agility
so, if a skulk now can mutilate any marine he gets near, and i cant kill a skulk in only 6 feet (it requires about 15 feet to sucsessfully kill him before he reaches me) does that mean that if i am within 6 feet of a door i am doomed?
take for instance messhall, skulks often come from all sides, and we cant kill them before they close the gap, then it is a 50-50 chance of survival as we both hop around the room together... with that in mind; do you think more areas(messhalls) will become inherently dangerous?
honestly we should just wait and see how it works before complaining. Like I've said before I believe bhopping and jumping used for dodging is a skill and should be learned and not complained about. Now that it is no longer a feature we should try it out and see how well we do without it. You just need to learn and adapt.
Unfortunately for once I agree with rp that this change in particular is gonna change balancing alot in conjunction with invis. Better invis means more close range fights which means alot of dead marines if you cant dodge a bite or two. Not to mention like I've said before good skulks should easily be able to kill a hopping marine, it just takes more skill. With a fixed hitbox I dont see why we would need to take out the ability to dodge.
Then again though I would like to see how it is working out now, not just conjecture on how it might be if they do this or that. I wouldnt mind seeing an earlier release with a few bugs that would be fixed via patch so that we could get it earlier and therefore be able to better make suggestions for fixing it. It would also help for those who are worried about pub play. (but really thats just me being greedy)
You mean now marines are supposed to use their brains and move in groups instead of flying through the air like a glob of flubber hosing all lifeforms in the immediate area? omgz iu will so be boycatting teh nautal sellectan!!!!1 /sarcasm
I see people complaining about how now they wont be able to leap away to safety from a skulk ambush. Well, duh. Maybe you should have been paying more attention and moving as a team, as well as keeping your eyes open to nearby avenues of attack. If a skulk gets the drop on you, and you didn't bother to look up, you deserve to become lunch, not a flea that fell into a kettle at a local meth lab.
edit: As for removing onos bhopping, you forget, an onos bunny hopping is only slowing himself down because of the way onos movement is done.
I'd like to put in my $0.02 about jumping... Personally, i jump quite a bit in combat but not randomly or in an attempt to go faster around the map or away from/towards aliens. I time my jump so that i have a chance (if the skulk is slow enough to react) of dodging the bites of the skulk as he charges me. I think that jumping to tactically evade should be left in (for light armour marines that is, emphasis on the light <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) as it allows marines at least a chance if they can see where the threat is coming from. In real life, you wouldn't jump as such away from a charging animal, but you would probably leap to the side and since the nearest thing to this in half-life is jumping, it seems logical to me that players should be able to do this. I think that the jumping system that was implimented in 1.1 that allows one "free" jump and any consecutive jumps after this to be nerfed seems very reasonable.<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> IMHO, the new jumping system (from what i hear of it) is pretty realistic compared to say, the CS system (Imagine trying to win the hurdles with the CS system <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Ok, if you get one free jump there is almost no problem in that. MY real concern was screwing up the ability to jump from place to place and keep your speed. Plus even if a CS style stop is put on jumping that won't matter for anyone already good at bunnyhopping, I've gotten so good at bunny hopping I can even do it in CS still. For any of you that don't know the trick:
bind mwheeldown +jump
I'd also like to mention that a running skulk IS faster than a bunnyhopping marine. From my experience with bunnyhopping as a marine, you can't really gain much speed out of it unless you start out on a ramp or something like that.
Right... Since Nemesis wants us to use this thread i'd better ressurect it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for removing onos bhopping, you forget, an onos bunny hopping is only slowing himself down because of the way onos movement is done. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Recommended viewing for sheer comedy value. The trick is in the use of charge.
I have more to say on the topic of bunnyhopping than i could care to type out, very little of it would be appreciated, and i doubt any of it would change anything. So i'll settle for enlightening a few people.
Bunnyhopping is not <i>A Marine Thing</i>™. I get as many people complaining about my skulk hopping as i do about my marine hopping.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How many times have you seen an alien bhop? Not very many huh? Do you ever stop to wonder why this is? Obviously not, or you would have figured out that it doesn't help aliens nearly as much <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really know how to reply to this, other than to say that you simply don't know what you're talking about. But here, have a quick hopping demonstration, recorded on a random pub server i just played on:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Gorge... bunny-jumping may help them get around, but most of the people who takes the time to learn bunny-jumping are the "twitch-happy DM kill'em all and let god sort them out" type of people, who will probably be a skulk <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>, and i'm going to refrain from going any further into it<span style='color:white'>.</span>
PS. Its just a bunnyhopping demo people, i don't want to hear complaints about the lack of 'stealth' or the non-existant strategy of either pub team. And ignore the sub-standard lerking.
Whats the big deal people ? If your entire NS skill is <b>so</b> nerfed by being unable to spamtastically jump as soon as a skulk gets within 3 foot of you, you probably didn't have much skill in the first place.
Please bear in mind that in addition to the muzzle flash and the teeth bite being reduced, the new jumping system is just gonna reinforce the idea of Marines owning skulks at range and skulks owning marines up close, which is surely a good thing.
<!--QuoteBegin---_Phoenix_-+May 20 2003, 02:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-_Phoenix_- @ May 20 2003, 02:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Please bear in mind that in addition to the muzzle flash and the teeth bite being reduced, the new jumping system is just gonna reinforce the idea of Marines owning skulks at range and skulks owning marines up close, which is surely a good thing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And this is different to 1.04 in what way?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If your entire NS skill is so nerfed by being unable to spamtastically jump as soon as a skulk gets within 3 foot of you, you probably didn't have much skill in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if you can't kill a marine in melee right now already, then no marine nerfs will help you, either.
<!--QuoteBegin--eggmac+May 20 2003, 02:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ May 20 2003, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And this is different to 1.04 in what way? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not, I said it will reinforce this principle which exists in 1.04, and indeed NS all together.
<!--QuoteBegin--eggmac+May 20 2003, 02:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ May 20 2003, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, if you can't kill a marine in melee right now already, then no marine nerfs will help you, either.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--eggmac+May 20 2003, 09:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ May 20 2003, 09:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin---_Phoenix_-+May 20 2003, 02:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-_Phoenix_- @ May 20 2003, 02:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Please bear in mind that in addition to the muzzle flash and the teeth bite being reduced, the new jumping system is just gonna reinforce the idea of Marines owning skulks at range and skulks owning marines up close, which is surely a good thing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And this is different to 1.04 in what way?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If your entire NS skill is so nerfed by being unable to spamtastically jump as soon as a skulk gets within 3 foot of you, you probably didn't have much skill in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if you can't kill a marine in melee right now already, then no marine nerfs will help you, either. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Disaggree.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mythr1l+May 20 2003, 04:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mythr1l @ May 20 2003, 04:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Half the skill is anticipating where the skulk is going to go and jumping to avoid it. its damn annoying that whiney n00bs since they cant hit people who do that moan and moan untill they get their way. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To turn your arguement around, I could say i'm sick of whiney noobs who can't shoot to save their (virtual <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) life and only survive against a skulk because they can spam jump everywhere. Now they won't be able to in 1.1 they come on here and whine that they won't be able to do so anymore.
Two sides to every story <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
BTW, you will still be able to anticipate attacks and jump out of the way. Only if you haven't killed that skulk by the time you've jumped twice are you up the proverbial.
Jumping is not an intragel part of any mod (save DC, AHL, specalists, and other mods which have created advanced jumps on purpose in order to increase player movement). If you can't kill skulks without jumping, you are free to either go play another mod, or learn that sometimes, if a skulk is near you, then you are gonna die. That's all there is to it.
Keeping a feature of a mod just because "a lot of people do it" even though it disrupts the integrity of the mod is a bad idea. This is why jetpacks and pistols were nerfed, and this is why jumping will be nerfed.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mart+May 19 2003, 12:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mart @ May 19 2003, 12:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Gorges look a little too fat to be agile, and their running speed isnt particularly fast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hehehe wait til you see a 1.1 gorge on celerity.
Yea. Thank god they can't build with that speed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
For those of you who just cannot simply come up with ONE good idea for adaption to the non-leapfrogging of 1.1, I will give a couple to you.
1) Use your terrain - Easily put, if you dodge behind an object or use a railing or walls to duck behind jump over (you get to jump, just not bouncy-bouncy-bouncy) or put between you and the skulk.
2) Use your comm - Don't forget, your comm can rain health on you from above effectively saving your life for a limited amount of time in some situations. Use him/her wisely.
3) Pick your battles - What's that? You don't have support behind you or turrets to fall back on if you get ambushed? Take a hint, no more ramboing. Rambo marines are now nothing more than skulk treats on feet. Will it really be worth it to walk alone into that small room ahead? Or should you wait for a couple friends and go in raising hellfire around you? Wouldn't it be more worth it to take the long but open room route around? Or perhaps build a mini base with phase gate and turrets. That's right, now aliens aren't the only ones who NEED to build mini posts to fortify their positions.
<b>Bunnyhopping advocates you are PWNED in teh FACE!</b>
This is in response to a <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=32386&st=15' target='_blank'> post</a> in the beta information section about strafe jumping which I no longer can reply to=(. ____ Grendal thank you for your comments, they helped me understand the nature of natural selection, and what the opposing view is.
I want to address your question of why we aren?t playing quake 3. You answered your own question; ns has team play, tactics, upgrades, commanders? We want more strategic options, longer more meaningful games, and indeed games based on something more then just quake skills. I want to be in a group of HA marines walking majestically with welders and HMGs, clearing out hives and baddies. I want to be a skulk on the other side self-destructing in the middle of the pack, and beating back the oppressive marine forces. I want to be hurt and alone deep in enemy territory and to be healed by the commander. I want to bite ankles, set mines, and sg that damn fade who keeps killing my resource tower=).
Quake 3 was more about individuals then teams and that is why it (after 4 years) has become stale for me, and perhaps for you.
We all want the same thing I think: The best team based, strategy, first person shooter ever. Do I hear an AMEN? Q3 is about skill of aim just like ns, but it also has in it the skill of movement. In Q3 you strafe and move MUCH faster then in ns, and strafe jumping only compounds this and makes it more difficult to master. Sure skulks have leap, lurks fly and fades transport, but what about marines? I see your point Grendal that team work might fill in here for this lack of movement, but what about diversity and options. I don?t think the right choice is to cripple bhopping just to promote teamwork. It could also be said that alien?s movement should be crippled to promote teamwork as well. I definitely use strafe jumping as a skulk to get in faster then I normal, it is not just a marine thing. No, 1.1 is about rebalancing for fun. Strafe jumping can be balanced, and, I agree, needs to be balanced for this reason: ?the entire game to rest upon one guy dodging skulks and nailing them with impunity in their spawn?. Everyone plays different characters for very different reasons. Leave strafe jumping in for those of us who want it. Fix it without bastardizing it, there is a common ground here.
Personally I would restrict the number of jumps possible to take in a row, say two (one seems extream). Counter strike is more severe then this, which makes sense since it is much more about realism then ns ever should try to be. We didn?t play Q3 for realism; we don?t play ns for it either. If this game is to retain depth, then skill and practice must influence how effective our attempts are at victory. The game would be better with strafe jumping just as it is better with different alien creatures, different weapons, different styles of commanding, many different upgrade options for aliens and marines alike, different levels, and different ways of playing. The hard part is balance, but this can be worked out. If it really couldn?t be balanced well, just not allow jumping until marines upgrade it from the arms lab or something?. What would strafe jumping be worth in resources? To me its worth a lot, to others not so much? balance it, but don?t cripple it please.
Thank you measure. For the most (only?) intelligent argument against restricting marine agility.
I suppose it could be said that we're not all playing NS for realism. but did people play CS for realism? But as this and countless other threads have shown a great deal of us are playing it for the atmosphere. Which hinges very, very heavily on suspension of disbelief. Which -in turn- is linked to <i>plausibility</i> if not absolute realism. I think, forgetting balance for a second and assuming that balancing can be done with numbers after the spirit of the game is set down; that the ideal situation, as illustrated by mainstream sci-fi / horror is as follows: That of a marine crouching/in cover at one end of a corridor mowing down aliens charging at inhuman speeds toward him with awe-inspiring weaponry, while yet another alien reaches out of a vent above him and takes him out of action in a heartbeat (be that by paralysing him or to tearing him into 7 pieces - scaled as to target audience/atmosphere intended) Or that of marines walking through a corridor, overlapping arcs of fire and covering each others fields of view, one of them staring intently at an ambiguous sensor trying to give clues as to where the next attack's coming from. The attack comes and aliens pour from every direction, the ones that are seen are killed but the ones that come from unexpected directions are the proverbial fox in the hen-house.
Tone those examples down slightly so that the aliens dont feel quite so much like fodder, and have a chance in equal numbers (both key for an online game as opposed to a film) make that the optimal way of fighting via tweaks of game mechanics (physics/accuracy/jumping/stamina/motion tracking/etc.) then tweak the numbers (HP vs Damage) until its about fair.
Now that went a little longer than I intended, and was in no way meant as a lecture to any of the devs as to how to make their mod, but as a fleshing-out of my view on comical/irritating habits like bhopping/strafe-jumping.
If you don't want to play a mod that puts you in a cinematic setting and lays out the most sucessful methods of playing as the ones most entertaining <b>and fitting</b> to both sides. Then hopefully, like measure, you want pretty much that, but more towards action than immersion. like battlefield 1942 to operation flashpoint. Then fair enough. If yout couldn't give a money's as to the immersion/action level, or the game's following of its creator's original vision, and you just dont want your days of soloing whole rooms of skulks to be over then please do the rest of the people on this thread a favour and stop posting. let people with actual reasoning state their case(s).
<!--QuoteBegin--[FD] Razmataz+May 20 2003, 06:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([FD] Razmataz @ May 20 2003, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thank you measure. For the most (only?) intelligent argument against restricting marine agility.
I suppose it could be said that we're not all playing NS for realism. but did people play CS for realism? But as this and countless other threads have shown a great deal of us are playing it for the atmosphere. Which hinges very, very heavily on suspension of disbelief. Which -in turn- is linked to <i>plausibility</i> if not absolute realism. *snipped* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again I think you make some interesting points.
I think the fundamental issue here is that nobody on either side wants to feel like "fodder"; and the developers of course don't wish this either. A direct result of this is weapons (both guns and bites) are toned down to the point at which it allows marines to survive at close range for a while and likewise aliens at longer distances.
Now, this means that you're going to have situations that in reality, would almost never happen. Example: skulk bites marine (probably destroying a limb) yet marine bounces around with no impact in terms of aiming /bleeding etc. Obviously this would not happen in reality.
Where am I going with this ? Because of these artifical situations, you're going to have to end up accepting certain aspects of gameplay that are not very realistic. What is acceptable to one person is of course not going to be acceptable to another.
Also, you are going to have to end up somehow balancing fights (even with these artificial restrictions). So to help a marine survive at close range many choose to add jumping to their defense. It may look goofy but again, in my opinion this is largely a factor of the above mentioned issue... how to balance a non-realistic encounter ?
I have always and likely always will support selective jumping as an acceptable (in terms of gameplay/realism/atmosphere) evasion method for marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+May 18 2003, 06:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ May 18 2003, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is just dumb, people play games because they are fun. Bunny hopping is fun. From my experience the people who say "down with bunnyhopping" don't know WTH is is in the first place. Jumping up and down is not affected by this new change nor is it considered bunnyhopping. In 1.04 bunnyhopping was a way to get around a SLIGHT bit faster than u could by just walking around. Removing bunnyhopping removes a lot of the fun of being a marine. I thought being hardly able to walk backwards was bad enough. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>** Be nice. **</b>
I used to TEACH bunnyhopping (and the rest of the game/FPS/DM genre) in Kingpin, where it was accepted as a skill that had a place in the game. As a pro-ex-bunnyhopper, my stance in NS is that BH is BAD. I ban it on my server. It ruins the atmosphere and in a game so heavily dependent on the ability of both races to get to and hold specific locations (more so than standard FPS/Deathmatch games) also completely unbalances the game, especially in 1.04 with marine's massive early game advantage.
It sounds as though you've not understood the very basic principles of the game. Come back when you've played on both sides.
Egg, I am in favour of *very slightly* nerfed marine jumping, but the major thing is marines getting hit back 10m when you bite them in mid air. THAT I object to.
Roll on 1.1 I'm right behind you devs to give us a balanced and fun game.
Guys, you are all taking this way to seriously, plugins can be made (very quickly too) to allow bunny hopping with a single variable, and, if the jumping is like CS1.5, then thats fine, its still very maneuverable, and depending on what server you play on, they are making the game to be plugin free played, there are some servers with special plugins allowing different game balance. But Flayra isn't caring about that very much, he is worrying about his MOD without plugins. In my experience, i play on voogru, with giveres. But it is virtually impossible to beat the marines without a"giveres" cmd, if the marines know what they are doing, they can very easily take down any skulks on they're way to secure a hive or lock point. With this addition, skulks from a plugin free environment, will server a greater defense/offense + 1.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you don't want to play a mod that puts you in a cinematic setting and lays out the most sucessful methods of playing as the ones most entertaining <b>and fitting</b> to both sides. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there is anything that this thread shows, it's that there is no "most entertaining" or "most fitting" form of gameplay. The opinion you have expressed about your 'ideal' playing style only concerns the visual aspect of the game - you want to play a game that would look good if someone happened to make it into a movie.
Many people would dissagree with you on exactly what style of game would look good made into a movie (Hello John Woo), many more may say that the fantasy of being in a hollywood movie is not exactly what they would consider an essential gameplay element.
Some may well tell you that they could not give a flying mango wether you think something 'looks silly' or not. Because they would enjoy a game equally wether it involved space aliens, marines guns and teeth - Or orange cubes firing triangles at some green things that look like marshmallows. Provided the game mechanics, the reward of individual skill, strategy and team tactics were sound - Because <i>that</i> is the game. An any visual niceties, attempt to create an 'atmosphere' or intents to generate a fantasy world where people role play a big bad marine with a gun, are just the added extras that generate sales to hordes of school children.
These people might tell you, that altering (sacrificing?) the game mechanics because you think the game should look more like Aliens™ is ridiculous.
<!--QuoteBegin--Roobubba+May 21 2003, 09:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Roobubba @ May 21 2003, 09:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Egg, I am in favour of *very slightly* nerfed marine jumping, but the major thing is marines getting hit back 10m when you bite them in mid air. THAT I object to.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. But although many people in this thread hijacked the intial topic and used this fact as an argument for anti-bunnyhopping/strafejumping (don't know actually what they refered to), it is not the major consequence of the current jump-change. My concern was (and still is) that marine movement possibilites in general might be strongly restricted, which would reduce a lot of fun.
Comments
Sure, why not, who knows how agile a fade or onos is.
Gorges look a little too fat to be agile, and their running speed isnt particularly fast. Onos however... yeesh.
they don't jump from wall to wall do they?
fades shouldn't neither as they are biped like marines, but I suppose their blink is proof of surnatural agility
take for instance messhall, skulks often come from all sides, and we cant kill them before they close the gap, then it is a 50-50 chance of survival as we both hop around the room together... with that in mind; do you think more areas(messhalls) will become inherently dangerous?
Unfortunately for once I agree with rp that this change in particular is gonna change balancing alot in conjunction with invis. Better invis means more close range fights which means alot of dead marines if you cant dodge a bite or two. Not to mention like I've said before good skulks should easily be able to kill a hopping marine, it just takes more skill. With a fixed hitbox I dont see why we would need to take out the ability to dodge.
Then again though I would like to see how it is working out now, not just conjecture on how it might be if they do this or that. I wouldnt mind seeing an earlier release with a few bugs that would be fixed via patch so that we could get it earlier and therefore be able to better make suggestions for fixing it. It would also help for those who are worried about pub play. (but really thats just me being greedy)
I see people complaining about how now they wont be able to leap away to safety from a skulk ambush. Well, duh. Maybe you should have been paying more attention and moving as a team, as well as keeping your eyes open to nearby avenues of attack. If a skulk gets the drop on you, and you didn't bother to look up, you deserve to become lunch, not a flea that fell into a kettle at a local meth lab.
edit: As for removing onos bhopping, you forget, an onos bunny hopping is only slowing himself down because of the way onos movement is done.
Personally, i jump quite a bit in combat but not randomly or in an attempt to go faster around the map or away from/towards aliens. I time my jump so that i have a chance (if the skulk is slow enough to react) of dodging the bites of the skulk as he charges me. I think that jumping to tactically evade should be left in (for light armour marines that is, emphasis on the light <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) as it allows marines at least a chance if they can see where the threat is coming from. In real life, you wouldn't jump as such away from a charging animal, but you would probably leap to the side and since the nearest thing to this in half-life is jumping, it seems logical to me that players should be able to do this. I think that the jumping system that was implimented in 1.1 that allows one "free" jump and any consecutive jumps after this to be nerfed seems very reasonable.<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
IMHO, the new jumping system (from what i hear of it) is pretty realistic compared to say, the CS system (Imagine trying to win the hurdles with the CS system <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Anyway I would rather lose jumping a lot than seeing so much BH
bind mwheeldown +jump
I'd also like to mention that a running skulk IS faster than a bunnyhopping marine. From my experience with bunnyhopping as a marine, you can't really gain much speed out of it unless you start out on a ramp or something like that.
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As for removing onos bhopping, you forget, an onos bunny hopping is only slowing himself down because of the way onos movement is done.
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<a href='http://www.oclube.com/usuarios/teoh/bunnyhopping_onos.rar' target='_blank'>Bunnyhopping Onos</a>
Recommended viewing for sheer comedy value. The trick is in the use of charge.
I have more to say on the topic of bunnyhopping than i could care to type out, very little of it would be appreciated, and i doubt any of it would change anything. So i'll settle for enlightening a few people.
Bunnyhopping is not <i>A Marine Thing</i>™. I get as many people complaining about my skulk hopping as i do about my marine hopping.
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How many times have you seen an alien bhop? Not very many huh? Do you ever stop to wonder why this is? Obviously not, or you would have figured out that it doesn't help aliens nearly as much
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I don't really know how to reply to this, other than to say that you simply don't know what you're talking about. But here, have a quick hopping demonstration, recorded on a random pub server i just played on:
<a href='http://www.oclube.com/usuarios/teoh/hopskulk.rar' target='_blank'>Bunnyhopping Skulk</a>
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Gorge... bunny-jumping may help them get around, but most of the people who takes the time to learn bunny-jumping are the "twitch-happy DM kill'em all and let god sort them out" type of people, who will probably be a skulk
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That is <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>, and i'm going to refrain from going any further into it<span style='color:white'>.</span>
PS. Its just a bunnyhopping demo people, i don't want to hear complaints about the lack of 'stealth' or the non-existant strategy of either pub team. And ignore the sub-standard lerking.
Please bear in mind that in addition to the muzzle flash and the teeth bite being reduced, the new jumping system is just gonna reinforce the idea of Marines owning skulks at range and skulks owning marines up close, which is surely a good thing.
Please bear in mind that in addition to the muzzle flash and the teeth bite being reduced, the new jumping system is just gonna reinforce the idea of Marines owning skulks at range and skulks owning marines up close, which is surely a good thing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is different to 1.04 in what way?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If your entire NS skill is so nerfed by being unable to spamtastically jump as soon as a skulk gets within 3 foot of you, you probably didn't have much skill in the first place.
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Well, if you can't kill a marine in melee right now already, then no marine nerfs will help you, either.
It's not, I said it will reinforce this principle which exists in 1.04, and indeed NS all together.
<!--QuoteBegin--eggmac+May 20 2003, 02:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ May 20 2003, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, if you can't kill a marine in melee right now already, then no marine nerfs will help you, either.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
Please bear in mind that in addition to the muzzle flash and the teeth bite being reduced, the new jumping system is just gonna reinforce the idea of Marines owning skulks at range and skulks owning marines up close, which is surely a good thing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is different to 1.04 in what way?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If your entire NS skill is so nerfed by being unable to spamtastically jump as soon as a skulk gets within 3 foot of you, you probably didn't have much skill in the first place.
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Well, if you can't kill a marine in melee right now already, then no marine nerfs will help you, either. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disaggree.
Nerf = Less powerful marine.
To turn your arguement around, I could say i'm sick of whiney noobs who can't shoot to save their (virtual <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) life and only survive against a skulk because they can spam jump everywhere. Now they won't be able to in 1.1 they come on here and whine that they won't be able to do so anymore.
Two sides to every story <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
BTW, you will still be able to anticipate attacks and jump out of the way. Only if you haven't killed that skulk by the time you've jumped twice are you up the proverbial.
<blinks>
Keeping a feature of a mod just because "a lot of people do it" even though it disrupts the integrity of the mod is a bad idea. This is why jetpacks and pistols were nerfed, and this is why jumping will be nerfed.
hehehe wait til you see a 1.1 gorge on celerity.
1) Use your terrain - Easily put, if you dodge behind an object or use a railing or walls to duck behind jump over (you get to jump, just not bouncy-bouncy-bouncy) or put between you and the skulk.
2) Use your comm - Don't forget, your comm can rain health on you from above effectively saving your life for a limited amount of time in some situations. Use him/her wisely.
3) Pick your battles - What's that? You don't have support behind you or turrets to fall back on if you get ambushed? Take a hint, no more ramboing. Rambo marines are now nothing more than skulk treats on feet. Will it really be worth it to walk alone into that small room ahead? Or should you wait for a couple friends and go in raising hellfire around you? Wouldn't it be more worth it to take the long but open room route around? Or perhaps build a mini base with phase gate and turrets. That's right, now aliens aren't the only ones who NEED to build mini posts to fortify their positions.
<b>Bunnyhopping advocates you are PWNED in teh FACE!</b>
____
Grendal thank you for your comments, they helped me understand the nature of natural selection, and what the opposing view is.
I want to address your question of why we aren?t playing quake 3. You answered your own question; ns has team play, tactics, upgrades, commanders? We want more strategic options, longer more meaningful games, and indeed games based on something more then just quake skills. I want to be in a group of HA marines walking majestically with welders and HMGs, clearing out hives and baddies. I want to be a skulk on the other side self-destructing in the middle of the pack, and beating back the oppressive marine forces. I want to be hurt and alone deep in enemy territory and to be healed by the commander. I want to bite ankles, set mines, and sg that damn fade who keeps killing my resource tower=).
Quake 3 was more about individuals then teams and that is why it (after 4 years) has become stale for me, and perhaps for you.
We all want the same thing I think: The best team based, strategy, first person shooter ever. Do I hear an AMEN? Q3 is about skill of aim just like ns, but it also has in it the skill of movement. In Q3 you strafe and move MUCH faster then in ns, and strafe jumping only compounds this and makes it more difficult to master. Sure skulks have leap, lurks fly and fades transport, but what about marines? I see your point Grendal that team work might fill in here for this lack of movement, but what about diversity and options. I don?t think the right choice is to cripple bhopping just to promote teamwork. It could also be said that alien?s movement should be crippled to promote teamwork as well. I definitely use strafe jumping as a skulk to get in faster then I normal, it is not just a marine thing. No, 1.1 is about rebalancing for fun. Strafe jumping can be balanced, and, I agree, needs to be balanced for this reason: ?the entire game to rest upon one guy dodging skulks and nailing them with impunity in their spawn?. Everyone plays different characters for very different reasons. Leave strafe jumping in for those of us who want it. Fix it without bastardizing it, there is a common ground here.
Personally I would restrict the number of jumps possible to take in a row, say two (one seems extream). Counter strike is more severe then this, which makes sense since it is much more about realism then ns ever should try to be. We didn?t play Q3 for realism; we don?t play ns for it either. If this game is to retain depth, then skill and practice must influence how effective our attempts are at victory. The game would be better with strafe jumping just as it is better with different alien creatures, different weapons, different styles of commanding, many different upgrade options for aliens and marines alike, different levels, and different ways of playing. The hard part is balance, but this can be worked out. If it really couldn?t be balanced well, just not allow jumping until marines upgrade it from the arms lab or something?. What would strafe jumping be worth in resources? To me its worth a lot, to others not so much? balance it, but don?t cripple it please.
-Measure
For the most (only?) intelligent argument against restricting marine agility.
I suppose it could be said that we're not all playing NS for realism. but did people play CS for realism? But as this and countless other threads have shown a great deal of us are playing it for the atmosphere. Which hinges very, very heavily on suspension of disbelief. Which -in turn- is linked to <i>plausibility</i> if not absolute realism.
I think, forgetting balance for a second and assuming that balancing can be done with numbers after the spirit of the game is set down; that the ideal situation, as illustrated by mainstream sci-fi / horror is as follows:
That of a marine crouching/in cover at one end of a corridor mowing down aliens charging at inhuman speeds toward him with awe-inspiring weaponry, while yet another alien reaches out of a vent above him and takes him out of action in a heartbeat (be that by paralysing him or to tearing him into 7 pieces - scaled as to target audience/atmosphere intended)
Or that of marines walking through a corridor, overlapping arcs of fire and covering each others fields of view, one of them staring intently at an ambiguous sensor trying to give clues as to where the next attack's coming from. The attack comes and aliens pour from every direction, the ones that are seen are killed but the ones that come from unexpected directions are the proverbial fox in the hen-house.
Tone those examples down slightly so that the aliens dont feel quite so much like fodder, and have a chance in equal numbers (both key for an online game as opposed to a film) make that the optimal way of fighting via tweaks of game mechanics (physics/accuracy/jumping/stamina/motion tracking/etc.) then tweak the numbers (HP vs Damage) until its about fair.
Now that went a little longer than I intended, and was in no way meant as a lecture to any of the devs as to how to make their mod, but as a fleshing-out of my view on comical/irritating habits like bhopping/strafe-jumping.
If you don't want to play a mod that puts you in a cinematic setting and lays out the most sucessful methods of playing as the ones most entertaining <b>and fitting</b> to both sides. Then hopefully, like measure, you want pretty much that, but more towards action than immersion. like battlefield 1942 to operation flashpoint. Then fair enough.
If yout couldn't give a money's as to the immersion/action level, or the game's following of its creator's original vision, and you just dont want your days of soloing whole rooms of skulks to be over then please do the rest of the people on this thread a favour and stop posting. let people with actual reasoning state their case(s).
For the most (only?) intelligent argument against restricting marine agility.
I suppose it could be said that we're not all playing NS for realism. but did people play CS for realism? But as this and countless other threads have shown a great deal of us are playing it for the atmosphere. Which hinges very, very heavily on suspension of disbelief. Which -in turn- is linked to <i>plausibility</i> if not absolute realism.
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Again I think you make some interesting points.
I think the fundamental issue here is that nobody on either side wants to feel like "fodder"; and the developers of course don't wish this either. A direct result of this is weapons (both guns and bites) are toned down to the point at which it allows marines to survive at close range for a while and likewise aliens at longer distances.
Now, this means that you're going to have situations that in reality, would almost never happen. Example: skulk bites marine (probably destroying a limb) yet marine bounces around with no impact in terms of aiming /bleeding etc. Obviously this would not happen in reality.
Where am I going with this ? Because of these artifical situations, you're going to have to end up accepting certain aspects of gameplay that are not very realistic. What is acceptable to one person is of course not going to be acceptable to another.
Also, you are going to have to end up somehow balancing fights (even with these artificial restrictions). So to help a marine survive at close range many choose to add jumping to their defense. It may look goofy but again, in my opinion this is largely a factor of the above mentioned issue... how to balance a non-realistic encounter ?
I have always and likely always will support selective jumping as an acceptable (in terms of gameplay/realism/atmosphere) evasion method for marines.
<b>** Be nice. **</b>
I used to TEACH bunnyhopping (and the rest of the game/FPS/DM genre) in Kingpin, where it was accepted as a skill that had a place in the game. As a pro-ex-bunnyhopper, my stance in NS is that BH is BAD. I ban it on my server. It ruins the atmosphere and in a game so heavily dependent on the ability of both races to get to and hold specific locations (more so than standard FPS/Deathmatch games) also completely unbalances the game, especially in 1.04 with marine's massive early game advantage.
It sounds as though you've not understood the very basic principles of the game. Come back when you've played on both sides.
Egg, I am in favour of *very slightly* nerfed marine jumping, but the major thing is marines getting hit back 10m when you bite them in mid air. THAT I object to.
Roll on 1.1 I'm right behind you devs to give us a balanced and fun game.
Roo
If you don't want to play a mod that puts you in a cinematic setting and lays out the most sucessful methods of playing as the ones most entertaining <b>and fitting</b> to both sides.
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If there is anything that this thread shows, it's that there is no "most entertaining" or "most fitting" form of gameplay. The opinion you have expressed about your 'ideal' playing style only concerns the visual aspect of the game - you want to play a game that would look good if someone happened to make it into a movie.
Many people would dissagree with you on exactly what style of game would look good made into a movie (Hello John Woo), many more may say that the fantasy of being in a hollywood movie is not exactly what they would consider an essential gameplay element.
Some may well tell you that they could not give a flying mango wether you think something 'looks silly' or not. Because they would enjoy a game equally wether it involved space aliens, marines guns and teeth - Or orange cubes firing triangles at some green things that look like marshmallows. Provided the game mechanics, the reward of individual skill, strategy and team tactics were sound - Because <i>that</i> is the game. An any visual niceties, attempt to create an 'atmosphere' or intents to generate a fantasy world where people role play a big bad marine with a gun, are just the added extras that generate sales to hordes of school children.
These people might tell you, that altering (sacrificing?) the game mechanics because you think the game should look more like Aliens™ is ridiculous.
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I agree. But although many people in this thread hijacked the intial topic and used this fact as an argument for anti-bunnyhopping/strafejumping (don't know actually what they refered to), it is not the major consequence of the current jump-change. My concern was (and still is) that marine movement possibilites in general might be strongly restricted, which would reduce a lot of fun.