Should The Upgrades You Choose....
NightCrawlerz
Join Date: 2003-04-18 Member: 15609Members
Join Date: 2003-04-18 Member: 15609Members
<div class="IPBDescription">be more of personal choice?</div> Where do we want ns to head? Should upgrades be an individuals discision or shoudl the group decide for everyone?
What i mean is, Should there only be 1st 2nd and 3rd upgrade progression were the group decides for the indvidual how he will play? Or should the indvidual decide how he wants to play?
I personaly like to cloak and ambush. And others liek to rambo out and hunt down people with carapace. And others still like to be quick and speedy raiders.
Should somone elses preferance overide mine?
When somone chooses a chamber to be first they distroy all the other playing possiblitys the other chambers could have provided. This single act removes 2/3 of the playing possiblitys for the begining of the game.
Reactions?
What i mean is, Should there only be 1st 2nd and 3rd upgrade progression were the group decides for the indvidual how he will play? Or should the indvidual decide how he wants to play?
I personaly like to cloak and ambush. And others liek to rambo out and hunt down people with carapace. And others still like to be quick and speedy raiders.
Should somone elses preferance overide mine?
When somone chooses a chamber to be first they distroy all the other playing possiblitys the other chambers could have provided. This single act removes 2/3 of the playing possiblitys for the begining of the game.
Reactions?
Comments
It's a teamplay game. Ideally, the team comes to a consensus on the direction in which they want to move. Sometimes you have to sacrifice your own personal desires for the good of the team. By the way, "there's no 'I' in 'team.'" (;
That said, Nightcrawler has a point. It would be alot more interesting if aliens could have different upgrades. It has been suggested that gorges can build all three chambers at one hive. Aliens can only take one upgrade per hive however. This would allow for considerable diversification among aliens. Skulks could adjust to whatever playing style fits their tastes. Some skulks could use the conventional carapace brute force style. Others could take silence and attack from behind, or even do the same with cloak if they like. Cloak would definitly be more potent if the marines didn't know how many aliens, if any, had it.
Two hives would allow even more variety. Silence and cloak? Carapace and cloak? Cloak and the new scent of fear would make a good scouting skulk.
There is of course still the carapace adren option.
This would take some adjusting to work. Chamber cost would have to go down quite abit so aliens could have all 3 chambers of each type. Other balancing is necessary to stop people from taking advantage of the lower cost and just making d chambers all over the place. The more I think about this however, the more appealing the idea sounds.
The marine and alien gameplay structures are vastly different. NS boils down to one team filled with jacks-of-all-trades versus a team of specialized units. The first is most versatile strategically, the second more versatile tactically. Since marines are all united by the commander who is supposed to be making all the big decisions, it certainly makes sense that he controls what to upgrade. But since the aliens are focused more on the individual, do we really want to employ that same idea (ie one player forcing a type of upgrade on everyone) for them? It seems counter-intuitive to have one gorge make a commander-like decision, when the alternative would simply emphasize the specialization that the aliens already exhibit.
This is the reason why sensory upgrades are never, ever used in a serious environment. It isn't that the upgrades aren't completely useless, because they aren't. The problem is that the sensory upgrades are the least flexible, only useful for defending an area and having its potency greatly diminshed if the marines research Motion Tracking. And once the first sensory chamber has been dropped, there's no going back. So it doesn't matter how effective sensory is in the early game, since as the game shifts the aliens must go on the offensive at some point. Once that happens, they're locked into upgrades that no longer help them. In short, choosing sensory makes the aliens reduce their biggest strength -- their tactical versatility.
Now I've already gone into this subject in-depth <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=28860&hl=' target='_blank'>here</a>, so I won't reiterate my suggestion again. But as Melkor outlined, having more upgrades available would allow alien players to use upgrades in more specific situations and adjust to marines counters. To evolve and adapt, as they should.
When chambers are progressive you will get a set order that will be burned into the forheads of every nsplayer. No matter how evenly you make chambers a DMS order will always evolve. Making the chambers even will not make all of them viable for every map, but will only make certein chambers chosen as first for a few select maps. A DMS will be chosen for each and every map. So say in 1.1 if i want to play sens first i can only do so on ns_lost because thats the only map were sensory is viable (example only) that will only lead to the people who like sensory playing on that one map and that would degrade the community incredibley fast. DMS needs to be stopped, and the only way to do that is to obliteate 1st chambers. Making chambers even will not stop DMS it will only make what map you are on decide the chamber Agian creating a new DMS.
but there's a "u" in group <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
but kidding aside... (and i think that this may be the wrong post)
i do like the idea of aliens getting 1 upgrade per hive but all chambers can be built..
i used to hate the idea, but i have thought about it a while,
it would do away with DMS, and other mandatory chambers
it would create more ways for aliens to "tech up" (should the gorges only build DC untill a second hive is built? or make every upgrade aviaible before thinking about hives?
it would create the alien buildings to be more prodominant and more used... WOL with SC and DC, at only hive 1
it would create more experments with upgrades with skulks (clocking might be used)
but there's a "u" in group <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And lest we forget, there is a <b>me</b> in team.
This is true of 1.04. It is not true of 1.1.
You also assume very, very incorrectly. Sweeping generalizations only make you look foolish, not me.
Generalizing that sweeping generalisations make people look foolish only makes your self look foolish. lol
yoda = pwned
Like it was said before, making chambers progressive will always generate a dropping pattern. It makes the game repetitive and far less fun, and I totally agree! I can't remember the last time I used silence, or any sensory chamber upgrade at all.
This idea should really make into 1.1
when somone says " cheese tastes liek poop and smells like it to!' ... is it safe to assume that they dont liek cheese? or not.
That's not true. Even now, movement is occasionally viable in special cases. Mainly, sensory needs to be fixed, and then I think it will be viable again.
Sure, maybe celerity make you move so fast that the marine will miss more bullets and you will take less damage, like if you were using carapace. But, movement chambers do not heal alien players or structures, adrenaline is useless for skulks because you will probably be dead before you use all your adrenaline bar (I think I never run out of adrenaline as a skulk, unless I was biting RTs, of course) silence gets countered with motion tracking, and celerity does not work very well against turret farms.
Movement and sensory chambers first are viable? Sure. Are they as good as defense chambers? No way.
when i say a DMS order i dont mean ACTUAL DEFENCE MOVEMNT SENSORY i mean that a chamber will be first always another will be second always and the last 3rd always. NO exceptions. not actual DMS but a DMS like order
Allowing all chambers to be built at one hive would give the aliens much more diversity and end the cemented upgrade order on pubs. It's an easy solution that really wouldn't provide any downside.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If I may translate Coil's post, which I believe I understand, is that you have yet to play 1.1 and therefore yet to make any relatively knowledgable statements with any somewhat relative truth.
There has not been any "religiously" followed build orders. I've frequently seen chamber order change every game.
This conclusion cannot be drawn from previous builds in any way shape or form, neither can it be concluded from pieces of information that you receive. Can you come to a realisation of what all the pieces of the puzzle form when you only have a few pieces ? Absolutely not.
Also, in 1.0 playtesting, I doubt they knew that DMS was going to be the only viable strat. The playtesters are there to test everything, so that's what they do. Without 100s of games under their belt, they probably don't know the best chamber order yet.... but it's naive and shortsighted to say there isn't one. But how would I know, I haven't played 1.1.... it just makes sense logically. Like the JP rush strat, there is going to be an optimal chamber strat that gives you the best advantage with least cost. Making them all available is the only way to allow players to use the fun abilites even if it isn't optimal to build them.
Lastly, it's tearing the NS community apart.
Ever hear these lines?
"OMG, NSPlayer built sensory kick him!!"
"yea WTH NOOB"
"that $%^#^ ****!!! MARINES COME KILL US"
If you haven't , you haven't played on a pub. New player gets kicked because he tried to help his team by building an upgrade... you'd think "upgrades" would HELP the team.
This is UN-INTUITIVE - Being castrized by your team for trying to help. It frustrates the other players who are bound to lose because the other upgrades suck or they don't know how to take advantage of them... or they just don't want them. The marines can vote the comm out soon as he does something stupid, like build a TF first.... but the gorge mistakes are permanent.... he gets kicked out the server and the team gets screwed.
So you can have this instant Kick/Ban system when building the "wrong" upgrade, or a system where a noob gorge does nothing but waste his OWN res if he builds the "wrong" upgrade.
Sure, just like any other problem, you can ignore it... but there is an easy way to the right path...
Certain classes seem more suited to particular upgrades than others. Sure a cloaked Onos can be good for a laugh, but I'm sure that hiding skulk would benefit more from it. It seems more logical for a rampaging beast to carapace or to regenerate perhaps (as a first upgrade) than anything else. But wait a minute...gorge put down a sensory chamber first ? Then you're out of luck.
So true. I always though that the Marines were a cooperative, team-based force, while the aliens were more individualist. I don't think its right a gorge to decide what is the team going to do, its not like gorges are comms anyway...
but there's a "u" in group <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And lest we forget, there is a <b>me</b> in team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
huh Oo
tame? tmea? meat?
There's a "we" in "weapon" -> best weapon in the game is the "we"