Res For Kills
SpceM0nkey
Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12480Members
Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12480Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Yes the small people want a say</div> Eagerly watching the 1.1 beta forum (as I am sure you all are)
I have noticed that in 1.1n that they have put in a res for kills situation.
Now I have been in deep discussion about this and I believe this is a bad idea for two main reasons:
1. It isnt intuative
-- one of the major short coming of this game is its relatively steep learning curve (I say relative to the demographic, ie. cs, dod, fps). This learning curve and the non intuative nature of the game already causes problems, ala Gorge builds sensory, or tf in marines spawn, etc, etc. Res for kills makes this even more difficult to grasp for the noobs. Not only do they not have a "CSesque" score to see whether they are winning, they dont know how they get res, how much they get for what, not to mention what to spend it on.
2. It will cause a slippery slope effect in game.
-- where the most skilled players (not the ones who work as a team) get the most res, and the most tech, which allows them to get even more kills.
Please dont not keep this feature.
For more thoughs on this from the extremely large Australian Natural Selection Community head over to www.ausns.org/forum
anyway, what are you thoughts?
I have noticed that in 1.1n that they have put in a res for kills situation.
Now I have been in deep discussion about this and I believe this is a bad idea for two main reasons:
1. It isnt intuative
-- one of the major short coming of this game is its relatively steep learning curve (I say relative to the demographic, ie. cs, dod, fps). This learning curve and the non intuative nature of the game already causes problems, ala Gorge builds sensory, or tf in marines spawn, etc, etc. Res for kills makes this even more difficult to grasp for the noobs. Not only do they not have a "CSesque" score to see whether they are winning, they dont know how they get res, how much they get for what, not to mention what to spend it on.
2. It will cause a slippery slope effect in game.
-- where the most skilled players (not the ones who work as a team) get the most res, and the most tech, which allows them to get even more kills.
Please dont not keep this feature.
For more thoughs on this from the extremely large Australian Natural Selection Community head over to www.ausns.org/forum
anyway, what are you thoughts?
Comments
As for the slippery slope idea, we can't judge until we play the game ourselves. Very few PTs have called for it to be removed; some are arguing that it should be expanded or tweaked.
Also, I am pretty sure that gorges will also get res for the marines that their OC's kill (correct me if I am wrong please) so that, along with the revamped res distrobution system will help new players along rather than hindering them. If they make a mistake with the new system it is less of a fatal blow to the team.
2. The slippery slope scenario can only exist for the aliens, in which each kill they get goes to their own pool. Marines have no such individual res stockpile so it will benefit the team. It will be no more of a slippery slope than the one that currently exists.
The team with better players usually wins anyway.
My hope for the new res system is that it will change the role of the skulk so that it is less of a suicide battering ram and more of the skulking hiding suprise attacker it is supposed to be.
Sorry i havnt had time to read the beta board so i may not have grasped the new system to well heh. i started work on monday (first job) and havnt had much time on my comp heh. gonna take me all weekend to catch up on the boards i read heh.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Skulk cannot attack most targets directly, at least not without evolving new abilities. It tends to remain at the edges of marine activity, looking for opportunities or ambushes. It only keeps a low profile so it can get close to its target - then mayhem ensues. Commanders were constantly reporting something "skulking" at the edges of sensor range, or through the shadows, and the name stuck<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's straight from the manual, so you're half right. They were made to "skulk" without upgrades. They WERE made for assaulting WITH upgrades, so it's tricky territory. I think, like always, the tactics of skulks will depend on who they're playing. Against good shooting marines, I always ambush, but against newer marines, I usually suicide into the group of 5 in order to kill 3-4 of them before I die.
I haven't confirmed it, but I'm fairly certain gorges get RPs for OC kills. It makes sense.
And I think fo sneezy (and this is mostly speculation on my part) those killer skulks can go gorge and drop nozzles, hives and other buildings with their extra resources.
But, the res-for-kills is working out well so far, but obviously needs to be tweaked. Basically, what we're seeing in the PT games is, some people go early gorge and put up the upgrade chambers/res nodes. The skulks go out, kill marines, gathering res while doing so. Depending on how the game is going, its usually one of those skulks who, when he hits 60 res, will morph to gorge, and pop down a hive. This really is the fastest way currently to get a hive, since skulks/gorges get res at an equal rate, but the extra res given to a good skulk for killing can mean a very quick 2nd hive <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Maybe (I have seen people that are ten times the skulk I am), but I think generally people can be more resource effecient with skulks. Fades are only so much better, usually not quite worth the 54 points with out upgrades and team work. And right now in 1.1n they cost 75 (I think)!
M
Also, on the note of saying it was intuitive, iirc the marines in some way have nanites in their suits/bodies which is what comes from resources nodes, therefore when you kill you are harvesting the nanites from the marine's body/suit. Makes sense to me!
But, the res-for-kills is working out well so far, but obviously needs to be tweaked. Basically, what we're seeing in the PT games is, some people go early gorge and put up the upgrade chambers/res nodes. The skulks go out, kill marines, gathering res while doing so. Depending on how the game is going, its usually one of those skulks who, when he hits 60 res, will morph to gorge, and pop down a hive. This really is the fastest way currently to get a hive, since skulks/gorges get res at an equal rate, but the extra res given to a good skulk for killing can mean a very quick 2nd hive <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, I Skulk better than I Fade. About the only thing I had going for me previous was that I could acid rocket from around a corner... at this point I much prefer the added mobility (and FAR lower cost) that a Skulk provides. Especially with Celerity or Silence, popping out to take down a Marine, while keeping his buddy on the other side. Yeah, usually I die. But I'm only out about 2RP, when I've likely gained about that much back.
Only real problem I have is the slowdown that Carapace brings, now. It's pretty noticeable when you're used to zipping around, depending on the speed to keep you alive, rather than the (seemingly very low amount of) extra battering that Carapace allows.
Besideswhich, by the time I have the RP to switch to Fade (I mean, come ON... 75RP?!) the Marines are usually all outfitted with HMGs, so I lose it about as fast as I would being a Skulk. So I'll stick to tossing up Hives with those RP. They provide the team with a LOT more use than I would have gotten out of them in my thirty seconds as a Fade. Though I have my doubts at this point as to those who are dynamite Faders after the second Hive is up.. seems like they *cough* never die...
So now that I got that CS bashing out of my system, can you see why the learning curve is steeper? It's a harder game. Games are different, therefore, some games are easier to learn than others. If the game and the concept of reading the manual is too difficult for some people to grasp, then so be it, we'll have less people posting about how it's not as "CS friendly" and more people posting about things that really matter in the game such as balance changes so the teams can be played evenly.
The endless arguements over kill stealing.
The n00b who thinks he can get onos earlier and rushes the marine base.
Rewarding is based somewhat arbitrarily... the brave skulk who is first in line in the rush never gets kills, he's the meat shield for the other guys.
Once someone gets a higher evolution, they'll be getting a higher % of the kills, making it even harder for the original skulks to get up there. It'll be disappointing when you spend a minute bobbing and weaving to bite a marine, and a fade just acid rockets him, taking "your" resources.
I would rather there just be a team system... say every 10 kills the alien team gets 50 resources (or whichever number works) spread among all of them. Seems a bit more team oriented, and will make sure everyone stays on the offensive. It could also help reduce the learning curves, as you'll be more inclined to explain to newbies (not n00bs) how to play, since it'll be helping your res too; as opposed to just going for all the kills yourself - since they wouldn't know what to do with res if they got any.
Just my thoughts.
On the other hand, yes, it's possible for a really good player to get Fade before all other - but unless he's a teamplayer, he'll die soon, because a hive 1 Fade is inferior to a squad of marines.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> That's kinda creepy, especially with all the threads in the beta forum about onos being unbalanced.
I have noticed that in 1.1n that they have put in a res for kills situation.
Now I have been in deep discussion about this and I believe this is a bad idea for two main reasons:
1. It isnt intuative
-- one of the major short coming of this game is its relatively steep learning curve (I say relative to the demographic, ie. cs, dod, fps). This learning curve and the non intuative nature of the game already causes problems, ala Gorge builds sensory, or tf in marines spawn, etc, etc. Res for kills makes this even more difficult to grasp for the noobs. Not only do they not have a "CSesque" score to see whether they are winning, they dont know how they get res, how much they get for what, not to mention what to spend it on.
2. It will cause a slippery slope effect in game.
-- where the most skilled players (not the ones who work as a team) get the most res, and the most tech, which allows them to get even more kills.
Please dont not keep this feature.
For more thoughs on this from the extremely large Australian Natural Selection Community head over to www.ausns.org/forum
anyway, what are you thoughts? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think we can really comment on this sort of thing until we see it ourselves. There's no real way to predict the effect of a change on newbies until the floodgates are opened and they're all let in. Besides, an overhaul of the manual should clear up this sort of thing.
Think about it. If the manual's clear, easy to use and accurate (I haven't seen it in the changelog, but we can hope <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) then people who read it won't get stuck on stuff like this. But for someone who doesn't read the manual in the first place, aliens getting res from kills is the least of the stuff they won't understand. Sure this might not make sense to them, but a whole bunch of other stuff won't make sense either.
As for the skill discrepency between newbie skulks and experts... I still think changes of this (relatively small) magnitude can't really be assessed without hands-on experience. If 1.1 was going to implement Battlemechs (or Space Orkz, for that matter <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->), I'd be complaining before I see them myself. But not somehing like this...
But, the res-for-kills is working out well so far, but obviously needs to be tweaked. Basically, what we're seeing in the PT games is, some people go early gorge and put up the upgrade chambers/res nodes. The skulks go out, kill marines, gathering res while doing so. Depending on how the game is going, its usually one of those skulks who, when he hits 60 res, will morph to gorge, and pop down a hive. This really is the fastest way currently to get a hive, since skulks/gorges get res at an equal rate, but the extra res given to a good skulk for killing can mean a very quick 2nd hive <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, I disagree.
Btw, roll on good players defending a hive position til they have enough res to build it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Then if you manage to take out a fortified marine base, you should have enough res to put the hive up, which would benefit team rush's on fortified locations, because instead of just taking out a forward post, you also all get a nice res boost, it would also promote hunting down enemy RTs. And force marines to be more cuatious with their base's so they think about where to place a new post.
What isnt reported are the 5 or so Resource Towers and poorly placed TFs and then unpowered turrets.
I think some res for taking down a building would be nice. However, isnt it enough of a reward that you deprived the marines of 20-30 respoints and the time it took to build them?
In 1.1, your income is dependant on the number of res nodes held, and the number of kills you make.
In 1.04, your income is dependant on the number of res nodes held, the number of times you die, how many gorges there are on your team, wether or not NSPlayer decided to go lerk, how frequently everyone else on your team is dying, and the amount of resources everyone else on your team currently has.
Now, who was it that said the game should be intuitive?
1.04's overflow system creates a situation where your number of deaths directly effects your income. While dead, all resources you would otherwise be recieving are instead handed out to the other living players on your team. Meaning that the skulks who die the least currently recieve more resources than those who are repeatedly throwing themselves into the spawn queue.
1.1's system is very simple, its operation is immediately obvious to anyone. I do not see how the concept of recieving resources for a kill (accompanied by a helpful sound indicator) is so hard to understand. By removing overflow and the 3-share system, 1.1 has removed every major pitfall for new alien players. There are no more problems with multiple gorges splitting the res income, no one will complain when 3 people go lerk immediately at 33/33. It's an intuitive system.
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2. It will cause a slippery slope effect in game.
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Comments made by Flayra suggest that speeding up the slippery slope is the entire point.
NS currently suffers from obscene 'wrap up' periods, where the game has already been decided one way or another but will not officially end for another 10-20 minutes, possibly even longer on a public server. When Aliens have 2 hives, most of the resources on the map and a marine team contained in its base, the aliens have won. The fact that the game can still drag on after this point for an obscene length of time is unwanted. The reason the game drags on in this situation is due to a constant supply of free spawning marines. With a couple of IPs right next to the battle zone, the marine team has unlimited reinforcements to throw against the alien team that is trying to end the game. Add in weapon dropping, and the marines can play "pass the HMG" till the cows come home.
The opposite situation is not as common due to the marines ability to end the game quickly with JP/HMG, but 2 hive lockdown situations can still drag the game on for unnecessary amounts of time on public servers.
1.1 seems to be eliminating the causes of this wrap up period one by one. First, lengthy 2 hive lockdowns get a giant kick up the rear in the form of 1 hive onos. Then, marine weapon dropping is removed. Finally the res for kills system ensures that an alien team mowing down constantly spawning marines will generate a large amount of income that will allow for base breaker tech (Multiple Onos).
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the most skilled players (not the ones who work as a team) get the most res
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Apply some brain power please. Which kills more efficiently: 4 skulks running off in random directions around the map, or 4 skulks attacking in a group?
an alien rambo is ok but a marine rambo?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I assume your talking about with the new res for kill system, when sucking is removed?
So you have gotten 30+ kills in 5 minutes?
I'm impressed.