1.04 Being Repeated In 1.1?

RyoOhki · June 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Same stratagies, differant version</div> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Right now, phase gates are not being used because marines tech so slowly. The res spent on getting phase gates up, turret factories, turrets, etc.. to fortify a location means you're not spending res teching up. And guess what? On the alien team, theres always 1-2 skulks, just hoarding their res... waiting for 100... waiting... waiting...

If you try to fortify locations, spending tons of res in the process, guess what happens when those little skulks get 100 res? Oni vs LA/LMG . Oni kills your men, gorge bilebombs your structures, phase gates gone, turrets dead, now you have nothing .

If you forego spending the res on phase, TFs, turrets... it's Oni vs HA/HMG/GL squad of doom. There just isn't enough res flow for the marines to fool with phase/forward bases IMHO. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

This quote from the beta forums got me thinking, because right now in 1.04 EXACTLY the same thing applies. If the marines fortify res points they lose, it's as simple as that. Expanding and locking down areas doesn't work except when those locations are hives. Now it looks like in the current 1.1 build this still applies: tech is the only thing worth doing as marines.
Should this be the case? Should the marine team be forced to use one playstyle every game, same as D-M-S in 1.04? Jp/hmg rushes are out in 1.1, so that leaves quickly teching up and hoping to nail the aliens before they get onos.
Why should expanding and controlling the map not be rewarded? As it stands, reading from the beta forum, it seems that even if the marines control say 70% of the map and res points they keep losing, purely because a) once the onos arrives the marines seem to lose most of their outposts and b) gorge bile bomb utterly devestates any bases. It seems that the fast-tech rush is the only way for marines to win, and this equals badness. NS should allow both sides to pursue differant paths to victory, not lock players into the same dreary tactics every game.
I know 1.1 is a work in progress, and I write this not to criticise but mearly to voice my concerns. I'm not a 1.1 pt so I only have the comments of those testing the patch to go by. If what I have concluded is incorrect, then please disregard this post <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Pege · June 2003

I think there has been so much whining about onos and gorge being overpowered that the devs will nerf them next. I haven't heard any whining about fades, lerks, HAs or anything else besides those two so I guess 1.1 is going nicely towards release. I hope the onos stomp will be nerfed. I got the idea from reading Beta Forum that the onos can basically create FORESTS of HA/HMG marines by chaining the stomp and then letting some worthless piece-o-s**t skulk create a mass grave by chomping the HAs down. Don't know about tech/resource issues which probably take a long time to balance if there are any... Bugs also seem to take long to fix (fade metabolize/blink? CC parasite bug? Map bugs?). Still, 1.1 sounds awesome compared to 1.04 since now the fade ain't a game ender and there are a lot more high-tech wars (onos/fades versus HA/HMGers and JP/HMGers). It always seemed funny that so much work had been done modelling/developing fades and onos when they were hardly ever seen in game longer than 2 minutes. I think there will be a lot more diversity in alien/marine "classes" so we can see all sorts of JP/shotgunners and plain HMGers mowing down onos and lerks. Thumbs up for the playtesters/veterans/devs!

Macguyvok · June 2003

I think the answer lies in making res towers IMPORTANT to Marines. We've got to make the WANt to defend them, AND still be able to tech. ppl say, "marine kill for res!" I don't like that, personally, for 2 reasons. 1) It doesn't fit the story line. Aliens are made of bacteria. The Bacteria EATS the marines once they die; so aliens get res. Marines.. well... don't. It doesn't make sense to just add something that doesn't fit with the rest of the game. 2) It increases rambo marines. I was reading that non-organized marine teams are loosing. YES! THANK YOU FLAYRA! As a marine, I HATE rambos, and I HATE non-organized teams.... I think that marines should have to work as a group with EVERYTHING they do; beef up squads, and I think this will improve alot.

Ok, now that I've stated my problems, here's my solutions. Increase the res flow from RT's for Marines. instead of 1 res ever x amoutn of time, either double the time, or double the amount of res. I'm sure just increaseing thr flow would make marines tech quicker, and make protecting res important/viable. Keep in mind, I'm not saying we HAVe to give marines double res points, I'm suggesting we make them get res faster than alien RT's. (3 marine RT's get 50 res about 1.5x faster than 3 alien RT's, or something like that.)

Dread · June 2003

Yes, I believe Gorge and Onos should be tweaked(not nerfed) in order to make marine forward bases even remotely profitable. Imo Gorges Bile Bomb could be bumped in to three hive slot again. I know it's in two-hive slot in order to avoid 2-hive lockdowns(edit: just realized that doesn't make sense, if marines have locked two hives Gorges dont have bilebomb <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'> doh) but I think one hive Oni/Fades can break 2-hive lockdowns. Also Kharaa can build hives twice as fast as they used to(~40res) so afaik two-hive lockdowns don't happen so often in 1.1.

Bump Bilebomb to 4th slot and re-arrange Onos' weapons. For example: Bite(bite, the basic attack can be used to knock down bases, just not so easily), Devour(to counter HA-marines to some extent), Stomp(maybe make stomp disable turrets to make it 2nd hive base busting ability), Charge(the whole base busting ability would be in here)

Eh, just a thought. Balancing Oni is harder than I thought.

RyoOhki · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Eh, just a thought. Balancing Oni is harder than I thought. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Thats because they weren't designed to be balanced: from the very outset of 1.0 they were game-enders. They've never had a counter and it seems the devs are finding it hard to make a counter now without giving the marines some kind of "anti-onos weapon", something unthinkable <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Still, an onos/gorge nerf might change things around, because as it stands it seems: a) Marine expansions are useless, just like 1.04, and b) 2 hives means the marines lose, identical to 1.04

OneEyed · June 2003

on voogru server aliens will sometimes put a Movement up first than a DC, because he added faster attack with celerity, so u get speed and fast attacking, which pwns.

eaglec · June 2003

I was just wondering how many people who have complained about balance issues in 1.1 have actually played it?
To get a real feel for the balance of a multiplayer game you have to play it several hundred times from both sides and with a range of player skills, it cant be done from reading the comments and changelog.

Have faith young Ryo, the Flayra is our ally. Powerful Flayra...

Eviscerator · June 2003

People love playing NS. We eagerly await the next version. But like with all mods, the next big release is always something of a nervous anticipation. You want all the cool new stuff, but you're worried about having to re-learn strategies or worried that the game you love is going to be drastically different. It's fear of the unknown. So you read all you can about what is changing, and you try to envision what that will mean, in terms of strategy and overall gameplay.

Since those of us "out of the loop" can do nothing but read what is given to us, we feel a need to voice our nervousness here on these forums. And since 1.04 is getting closer and closer to fading into history, there isn't a whole lot to talk about on here other than what is going to happen with 1.1. I mean, who is going to talk about 1.04 strategy ever again? So let us voice our concerns, if only because it's cheaper than therapy <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> In this example, maybe some PT will counter it and reassure us that building outposts is still feasible when done properly.

You're right, though... we just need to have faith that Flay is going to deliver the most balanced version he can manage. As far as I'm concerned, he can take as long as he needs... I'm having fun just playing 1.04 for now.

boobs! · June 2003

to tell the truth, building outposts is viable, especially seige and moving. with tfacs being able to electrify and that electrcity can go thru walls, its pretty nice. and true building a tfac and turrets around a node is quite worthless (unless its a double node) the ability to electrify the nodes saves a node for quite a bit if its against a lone skulk. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Frogg2 · June 2003

Probably two of the big reasons are the onos has charge at 1 hive and gorge has bilebomb at 2 hive. Both are huge base lvlers the aliens can flatten marine outposts in seconds. These will probably both change.

Kid-A · June 2003

I think I need to read the whole thing in context.

They might be making the point that currently forward bases are pointless and almost completely not viable but in 1.0. They are viable but not much?

dr_d · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Macguyvok @ Jun 6 2003, 08:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I think the answer lies in making res towers IMPORTANT to Marines. We've got to make the WANt to defend them, AND still be able to tech. ppl say, "marine kill for res!" I don't like that, personally, for 2 reasons. 1) It doesn't fit the story line. Aliens are made of bacteria. The Bacteria EATS the marines once they die; so aliens get res. Marines.. well... don't. It doesn't make sense to just add something that doesn't fit with the rest of the game. 2) It increases rambo marines. I was reading that non-organized marine teams are loosing. YES! THANK YOU FLAYRA! As a marine, I HATE rambos, and I HATE non-organized teams.... I think that marines should have to work as a group with EVERYTHING they do; beef up squads, and I think this will improve alot.

Ok, now that I've stated my problems, here's my solutions. Increase the res flow from RT's for Marines. instead of 1 res ever x amoutn of time, either double the time, or double the amount of res. I'm sure just increaseing thr flow would make marines tech quicker, and make protecting res important/viable. Keep in mind, I'm not saying we HAVe to give marines double res points, I'm suggesting we make them get res faster than alien RT's. (3 marine RT's get 50 res about 1.5x faster than 3 alien RT's, or something like that.)  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Yes making 1.1 center more around marine teamwork is a good thing. I was COMMing on a pub server yesterday and the game just started with aliens in the cargo bay hive so I told 1 guy to go get forboding RT and powersilo RT while the rest guard spawn, it was a 4 v 4 server. Right after I gave out the waypoint this guy comes on the mic and says ok everyone were going to rush cargo bay, everyone follow me, I said no stay at spawn, they of course followed him, I said get back to spawn, he said come on let's rush em, I said you don't get any health or ammo if you go, he said screw you then. They all died and he says let's go rush again, my exact words "Stay at spawn that's a direct order" 3 seconds later Commander has been ejected.

Got ejected for trying to make marines follow orders, made me kind of sad.

btw they went to rush again and 3 skulks came and ate our spawn and they all died cause none of them had the brains to go commander.

1.04 Being Repeated In 1.1?

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