When Jetpacks Go Bad

clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
in Frontiersmen Strategy
<div class="IPBDescription">Second-strongest 1.04 strategy</div> It's fairly clear at this point that JP/HMG is the strongest strategy to follow in NS v1.04. However, if jetpacks were a little worse and JP/HMG was no longer viable, what would be the strategy you would use instead in a competitive-level game (i.e. pug/scrim level rather than pub level)? As random examples:

Hive containment + tech to HMG ground assault?
Early forward base + LMG hive spawncamping?

I'm sure that there's some people out there who've been enforcing house-rules of "no JP/HMG rush" already...

What do you think?

<shameless plug>
The reason I ask is I wrote a metamod to nerf the JP a little, and I'm wondering what the strategic consequences would be. The thread on the metamod is <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=34397' target='_blank'>here</a>.
</shameless plug>
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Comments

  • PegePege Join Date: 2002-11-27 Member: 10088Members
    Maybe a 2-hive lockdown followed by camp-teching. That is the next common thing after JP/HMG as far as I know.
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  • StakhanovStakhanov Join Date: 2003-03-12 Member: 14448Members
    hmmm... ressource rush + HA HMG push on first hive ? Not sure , skulks still have the options of harassing the main base minesweeping , or just destroy too many RTs before lvl3 upgrades/HAs are avaible. Not that easy on most maps heh.
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  • clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
    Is a 2-hive lockdown really fast enough for v1.04? It just seems that without putting pressure on the alien hive to starve the alien resources, I'd think that the alien team will get enough res for something like the nifty gorge/lerk attack we saw in the USA/KOR demos.
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  • pardzhpardzh Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1601Members
    Pressure with LMG's and spawncamp, while one Marine grabs nodes all over the map and you upgrade weapons/armor. Works fiendishly well on some maps with long corridors near the hive that your Marines can retreat to if they have to reload or take on more than one skulk at a time. Just keep them in the hive, and if they ever all die, have one or two guys shooting the hive itself.
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  • Lightning_BlueLightning_Blue Sunny Domination Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10647Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
    Don't try that with me around Duff <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->


    Actually, the two hive lockdown is quite common. Usually results in three things:

    <ul>
    <li>Aliens F4
    <li>Server crashes due to too many mines and turrets and o & d chambers
    <li>Aliens win due to taking out the lone base defender. (very rare but VERY funny when it happens, no comm is usually gg)
    </ul>

    Be interesting to see how nerfing the jetpacks affects games.
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  • That_Annoying_KidThat_Annoying_Kid Sire of Titles Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14175Members, Constellation
    I was playing on NANO yesterday, and we got JP's, if anything the recharge rate is increased, but the thrust rate is lowered. It's good and balancing
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  • Lightning_BlueLightning_Blue Sunny Domination Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10647Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
    TAK, we nerfed them even MORE since then.

    Tiio and Us3r and myself tweaked to death.
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  • clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
    ... and all that tweaking is much appreciated. I'll most likely make your recommended settings the default for the next release (if there is one before 1.1), Mr. Blue.

    Just to clarify, I think 2-hive lockdown is totally doable on a pub, but probably impossible in a pug or scrim.
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  • Brave_UlyssesBrave_Ulysses Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15922Members
    What does "<b>pug/scrim</b>" refer to?
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  • clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
    pug = either a pick-up game, or something <a href='http://eowyn.hypermart.net/pug/pug4.html' target='_blank'>like this</a>. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
    scrim = a clan vs clan match
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  • UnipacUnipac Join Date: 2003-01-27 Member: 12864Members, Constellation
    Usually if a JP/HMG rush has failed... the game is over for the Marines...

    the 25 + 9 per Marine cost will slow down the tech by a lot. And usually when commanders decide to do this kind of rush, they don't spend any res securing a hive... they want to get the jetpackers up and flying as soon as possible.

    So a failed JP/HMG rush = <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
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  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    My clan has started practicing a lot of hive containment (spawn camping being pretty much impossible with the umbra, now). I really doubt you will see this on pubs, however, since it takes a lot of teamwork and coordination. My guess is that on a 1.04 pub with nerfed jetpacks you will see marines losing more often. Jetpacks, for pub marines, are usually a last resort after a failed turret-lock down attempt; if they fail then the game is over.

    If they win it will be as the result of a total domination of skill. Either they manage to lock down two hives because the aliens refused to get upgrades in time (which I've seen happen many times), or they spawncamp (which, in scrims, takes an astounding amount of resources and teamwork, and, in pubs, takes an amazingly crappy group of skulks).
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  • Mythr1lMythr1l Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12772Members
    prolly relocate to outside the aliens hive and siege it... in fact this tactic is probably better than JPHMG when aliens get fusion hive on tanith or Subspace on nancy.
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  • PegePege Join Date: 2002-11-27 Member: 10088Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Mythr1l+Jun 11 2003, 11:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mythr1l @ Jun 11 2003, 11:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> prolly relocate to outside the aliens hive and siege it... in fact this tactic is probably better than JPHMG when aliens get fusion hive on tanith or Subspace on nancy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I've lately seen this happen. I've seen a lot more 2-hive lockdowns, but just yesterday I played a couple of rounds where marines just crudely relocated right next to alien hive, built 2 IPs and rushed with their superior spawnrate. Kinda bi**h style, but hey, it worked <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
    Game over in 2 minutes, GG.
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  • clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
    Didn't one of the teams in the USA/NZ match try to do this relocate-IP rush on Tanith? (aliens were in sat comm, as I recall)

    I've never tried a mine rush with friendly fire on. Do mine rushes actually work if ff is on?

    If you haven't seen this before, marines drop mines on the hive entrance, build an armoury near the hive, drop mines to defend it then mine up the hive entrances and hive floor as hive containment while having 1 marine build rts to tech up. It's actually surprisingly effective. From the alien side the main counter is to stop them building the armoury.
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  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    Yes, a mine rush works with FF. You just have to be careful to place them far enough apart that they dont chain the explosions and also stand back <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> . Sighting the hive for a siege cannon is also very deadly <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> .
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  • AgkelosAgkelos Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13243Members
    I will cry if all servers suddenly have jetpack nerf.. horrible.. horrible..
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  • clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
    Why is it horrible?
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  • IceIce Join Date: 2003-03-29 Member: 15008Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Pege+Jun 11 2003, 12:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pege @ Jun 11 2003, 12:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Mythr1l+Jun 11 2003, 11:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mythr1l @ Jun 11 2003, 11:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> prolly relocate to outside the aliens hive and siege it... in fact this tactic is probably better than JPHMG when aliens get fusion hive on tanith or Subspace on nancy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I've lately seen this happen. I've seen a lot more 2-hive lockdowns, but just yesterday I played a couple of rounds where marines just crudely relocated right next to alien hive, built 2 IPs and rushed with their superior spawnrate. Kinda bi**h style, but hey, it worked <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
    Game over in 2 minutes, GG. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    On ns_eclipse, the hive was Maintenance and the marines relocated to the upper exit? If it was, that was so short that it wasn't even lame <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
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