Ns's Other Resource
civman2
Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6116Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6116Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Why RTS' and NS are different.</div> Ok, here's the situation. You're playing a game of Total Annihilation (1997 RTS). It's late into the game, you and your opponent have been having battles back and forth for control of the middle metal patches (res nodes) on the map. You've both teched up to level two units, but the consant fighting has left both of you fairly broke. Since you can't afford the expensive level two tanks, you horde cheaper level one units. Then, out of wreckage heaps appears a Krogoth (Huge robot, most powerful unit in game). You panic, watching it incinerate defensive structures left and right with its massive lasers and cannons. You select your 80 or 90 level one missle tanks you had lying around (TA is a big scale game, the krogoth costs about 34,000 metal, the tanks about 130 each. Yea, it's that powerful) and send them at the krogoth. The krogoths weaponry manages to incinerate the first 40 or so missle tanks, but their combined fire was able to eventually bring down the major unit. Stock units in number were able to take down the biggest unit in the game.
This is a situation that would never happen in Natural Selection. An Onos is the largest alien unit, and already it chews through small squads of HA like they're not there. In a 6v6 clan match, maybe 5 LA LMG units would be able to get an onos charging at them from down a hallway, but what if there's two onos? or the whole other team is onos? 6 onos is 600 res. In theory I should be able to have 10-12 HA HMG GLs for that. But I can't, because there are only 5 non-commanding players on my team. The marines' advantadge is its combined firepower, but while my squad is over in Cargo combining their firepower, what stops the aliens other onos from ripping up my RTs in Powersilo?
If an onos beats a HA HMG one to one, then what happens when it's 5 heavies vs. 5 onos? Don't even factor in other alien advantadges like umbra and spores and webbing and gorgs healing. Maybe the heavies could take down the first two onos, but they're going to have to reload eventually. It doesn't matter that the marine commander is sitting on 300 res watching his heavy squad die, there's nothing he can do. The number of units you can have on the field is limited by the number of people playing. There's not going to be any 20 marines heroically destroy the oni attacking atmospheric. 5 non-xeno skulks are not going to be able to stop the 5 heavies marching towards Engine.
I agree that it's logical that the 100 res onos should be able to kill a 40 res heavy, but the problem is that the marines stand no chance against a team of onos, because they have nothing that is on par with the sheer tankness that is an onos. Sure, "destroy their resources and they won't get onos". But realistically, without rushing (which flay is against), there is always going to be some point in the game that the aliens were able to get several oni. The marines should always be able to drop a couple suits of HA.
So, you have to consider not that 3 onos is equivelant to 6 heavies, but that 5 onos doesn't have an equivelant. There is nothing the marines can do to stop lots of onos. Maybe on the defensive they could spam grenades and keep the entraces mined up, but how are they ever going to attack against oni that have DCs healing them and SCs letting them ambush?
Conversely (although it sounds like this is less of a problem for the aliens in 1.1), the aliens won't be able to deal with 4 heavies coming at them if all they have is skulks and gorgs and lerks. But this is less of a problem, because fades are about the same cost as a suit of heavy, and onos aren't much more.
The problem is that you can't mass attack with stock units (except for rines early in the game because of their supperior spawn rate) because the higher tech units will be there in almost equal numbers.
It's not as though you can click on the IP and spawn yourself up 5 more marines. Manpower is the 2nd resource, and as the games progress, it would seem that the side that can tech to the most powerful unit will win, and this side seems to be aliens with their onos.
5 LMGers can take an onos, but if the aliens have two...
This is a situation that would never happen in Natural Selection. An Onos is the largest alien unit, and already it chews through small squads of HA like they're not there. In a 6v6 clan match, maybe 5 LA LMG units would be able to get an onos charging at them from down a hallway, but what if there's two onos? or the whole other team is onos? 6 onos is 600 res. In theory I should be able to have 10-12 HA HMG GLs for that. But I can't, because there are only 5 non-commanding players on my team. The marines' advantadge is its combined firepower, but while my squad is over in Cargo combining their firepower, what stops the aliens other onos from ripping up my RTs in Powersilo?
If an onos beats a HA HMG one to one, then what happens when it's 5 heavies vs. 5 onos? Don't even factor in other alien advantadges like umbra and spores and webbing and gorgs healing. Maybe the heavies could take down the first two onos, but they're going to have to reload eventually. It doesn't matter that the marine commander is sitting on 300 res watching his heavy squad die, there's nothing he can do. The number of units you can have on the field is limited by the number of people playing. There's not going to be any 20 marines heroically destroy the oni attacking atmospheric. 5 non-xeno skulks are not going to be able to stop the 5 heavies marching towards Engine.
I agree that it's logical that the 100 res onos should be able to kill a 40 res heavy, but the problem is that the marines stand no chance against a team of onos, because they have nothing that is on par with the sheer tankness that is an onos. Sure, "destroy their resources and they won't get onos". But realistically, without rushing (which flay is against), there is always going to be some point in the game that the aliens were able to get several oni. The marines should always be able to drop a couple suits of HA.
So, you have to consider not that 3 onos is equivelant to 6 heavies, but that 5 onos doesn't have an equivelant. There is nothing the marines can do to stop lots of onos. Maybe on the defensive they could spam grenades and keep the entraces mined up, but how are they ever going to attack against oni that have DCs healing them and SCs letting them ambush?
Conversely (although it sounds like this is less of a problem for the aliens in 1.1), the aliens won't be able to deal with 4 heavies coming at them if all they have is skulks and gorgs and lerks. But this is less of a problem, because fades are about the same cost as a suit of heavy, and onos aren't much more.
The problem is that you can't mass attack with stock units (except for rines early in the game because of their supperior spawn rate) because the higher tech units will be there in almost equal numbers.
It's not as though you can click on the IP and spawn yourself up 5 more marines. Manpower is the 2nd resource, and as the games progress, it would seem that the side that can tech to the most powerful unit will win, and this side seems to be aliens with their onos.
5 LMGers can take an onos, but if the aliens have two...
Comments
Both sides will need to be aggressive in using any advantage, which is good.
It becomes even less of a problem in larger games, of course (larger games -> slower alien tech up (OTOH, more MASSIVE when it does happen)).
You wouldn't DARE wander around alone as a marine because 1 skulk would = 2 marines assuming equal skill. (Right now a marine can often take out several skulks before dying although the reverse is also true given the right circumstances. Basically 1 skulk ~ 1 marine.)
1 Onos would ~ 2 HA+HMG+Welder (or GL) etc.
I edited it for clarity
By the way, excellent choice of RTS for comparison i must say. Personally, i think it's one of the greatest RTS' ever, apart from Homeworld <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->. Shame CaveDog died, i think they went bust or something <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
www.tauniverse.com
The last big TA site.
[/hijack]
Ok, back on topic.
The thread wasn't really about how it takes teamwork to kill an onos, but how after a certain critical mass of oni, there is nothing the marine team can do to stop them. You can't crank out 17 LA LMG to stop the fades attacking base while your 4 HA HMG are attacking the enemy, it's not just resources, it's manpower.
The game has to end one way or another, and if the aliens can get a large squad of oni together then frankly it's game over man, game over (baring 'bizarre gardening' accidents and what-not: i've seen a couple of oni simultaneously fall down the death hole in ns_nothing's marine start while trashing the base, definitely a contemplate the meaning of life moment <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Distress beacon works for emergencies, but perhaps a commander could have the option of purchasing "prespawns" individually. ie, for every spawn purchased, the next marine to die respawns instantly. While this wouldn't increase the number of units in the field at any given time, the number of marines passing through the field would be greater.
I'd imagine this would put the balance of NS off quite a bit. Also, it's rather similar to the Kharaa redemption ability.
Oh well, just a thought.