Favoritism Killed Ns For Me

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Comments

  • SupernornSupernorn Best. Picture. Ever. Made. Ever. Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7608Members, Constellation
    I think he is looking at things from a 1.0 perspective where there <i>is</i> an all powerfull stragety that wins almost every time. 1.1 is being tested so that there are a <i>number</i> of different stragetys for each team that work just as well as each other, and that there are actually going to be ways to counter them.
  • ZelZel Join Date: 2003-01-27 Member: 12861Members
    the main flaw in your argument is in the fact that you believe elite clans testing puts them on a higher level. you think that they will become like CS's top clans , unbeatable, and therefore it kills your chances of becoming a clan god.

    however, the difference is that CS has several dozen thousands of players, making their elite few unnatainable, whereas NS's young age and relatively small playerbase keeps the highest hopes in sight at all times. anyone good enough can still rise through the ranks into one of those veteran clans.


    also, only two or three members from each can play 1.1, so the entire clan is not becoming proficient with the game of the future, only those few selected get to, which only cuts their clan unity, effectively weakening them and helping us!

    in short. dont worry about it!
  • criticaIcriticaI Join Date: 2003-04-07 Member: 15269Banned, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Zel+Jun 13 2003, 03:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zel @ Jun 13 2003, 03:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> also, only two or three members from each can play 1.1, so the entire clan is not becoming proficient with the game of the future, only those few selected get to, which only cuts their clan unity, effectively weakening them and helping us!

    in short. dont worry about it! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Actually, we have about 10 members of our clan.
  • TheWizardTheWizard Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10553Members, Constellation
    I dont think it was favoritism, though I do have a few complaints about the current system.

    I had grown accustomed to the HL modding scene where a game is released and new aspects are added changed removed and soone. All on the public end. I love playtesting games and I found it to be very enjoyable to see what changes were made to the game this time round.

    However, the mystery patch no longer exists in NS. We will know exactly what will be in the new 1.1 patch but we will have had little say in its creation (other than suggestions or ideas) Its just something that I miss.
  • Speed_2_DaveSpeed_2_Dave Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8788Members
    This favoritism thing.. The Vets+PTs nailed it on the head. PTs have been around, some new have been added, to PLAYTEST. The Vets were added to speed up the process of tweaking the 1.1 patch. They are speeding it up, otherwise I wouldn't be joking when I answer "1.1 will be out on Halloween."

    Someone should have written his post, looked at it, and deleted it, satisfied that his frustration was vented. Go back to your imaginary world where JP/HMG is unbeatable. /rant

    This should be my last post in the General forum for a few days; I've been getting increasingly tired of reading the same stuff day in, day out. THINK people.
  • Frogg2Frogg2 Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4867Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Big Chief Brown Bottom+Jun 13 2003, 12:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Big Chief Brown Bottom @ Jun 13 2003, 12:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i believe clan veterans are chosen because they are almost guaranteed to be active. such is the commitment you give when you join a clan, you commit to time. they're also guaranteed to have some feedback, being active and all. having said all that, i still find it funny that they're losing interest and that beta servers are so empty <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Please. The 1.1 servers aren't empty. There is lots of activity on them from about 3pm-midnight.

    Also just because 1 person makes a post about how and why they are losing intrest in 1.1, doesnt mean all the PTers are losing intrest.
  • voogruvoogru Naturally Modified (ex. NS programmer) Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1827Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation
    edited June 2003
    I think the reason there are not public beta tests is because there are too many lamers out there. The game has bugs, And usually a fair amount of people know about the bugs and how to use them. But, we don’t exploit them. (Well, some do, Such as the kill thing :/). However lamers will find anything they can to ruin the game.

    If 1.1 was a "public beta", there would be lamers exploiting like crazy. On top of that more servers will have to update whenever there is a patch. So a few people are selected and if they go out of line. They get shown to the door.

    Flayra needs to test the game play/balance, then I assume he works on bug/exploit fixes. Now if 1.1 was a public beta, It would be bug fixes then game play/balance. Because there would be lamers using exploits affecting the game play. This means more time would be on bug fixes rather than the actual game itself. Then everyone would flame Flayra for releasing a buggy game.

    If 1.1 was a public beta, Lamers try to ruin it for everyone, And no real testing could be done. So they moderate who can test, and who can’t.

    I don’t think there is any "Favoritism" involved.
  • NeoMatrixj2NeoMatrixj2 Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9638Members
    I was added out of the blue to the test the other day. Even though I chat with grendel every now and then I don't really know him. When I play I tend to play till the end and try to find any bugs I can. We got a new build coming up that will remove some bugs and make it more playable thus allow more testing. When 1.1 is released Flayra's goal is to eliminate a one certain winable strategy meaning more intense and faster fighting and eliminate the "OMG don't jp rush you lamers".
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Just answer me this: How does Flayra have to justify his descisions on the testing of the game <i>he</i> is currently investing the third year in to anyone of <i>us</i>, who invested a hundred meg of bandwith?
  • CowswinCowswin Join Date: 2003-03-17 Member: 14623Banned, Constellation
    Well, whether anyone wanted to create a rift between beta testers or not, there's one now.

    *watches the rift rip a hole the time space continum*

    "Jump in and go to a parallel universe so you can go to one where you're a beta tester!"

    Btw, I support neither side but the argument that Vets will have some huge advantage is totally wrong. You know that JP/HMG rush? That took clans 2 days to figure out. That's right, the most powerful tactic in the game was discovered in two days. Don't worry over them having some weird advantage based on that. If it was a PvP RPG I might understand, but in a game with a limited scope like this I don't think you should have to worry about it.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--arjungita+Jun 13 2003, 02:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (arjungita @ Jun 13 2003, 02:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But for me, and I'm sure a lot of others, the prolonged special treatment and exclusivity of learning the strategies and tactics coming in 1.1 is just ridiculous. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That sentence, right there, just sumed it up. All the orginal poster is angry about is the fact that the Vets will have a slight advantage at the release. He is just upset that he didn't get choosen....

    Awwwww....
  • CronosCronos Join Date: 2002-10-18 Member: 1542Members
    This reminds me of a cheesy 1950's movie.

    Basically, earth was about to be destroyed. A rich guy tries to tell people, but no one believes him. He finances the building of a rocket ship that will take as many people he can save, as well as all the things needed to get civilization going again. Thing is, he also had to hire many many workers to get the project off the ground.

    Now, the rocket ship is ready for take off and the workers have realised that they are doomed. What do they do? They plan to storm the rocket ship, kick everyone off, and fly it themselves. One smart worker however tries to convince them otherwise. I can paraquote him.

    "You fools! Dont you see! You can convince yourself that the selection process was rigged all you like, but even if you do get those people off the rocket ship, it'll still be rigged. It'll only come to the next fifty and the next fifty and the next fifty until earth is destroyed! This is madness!"

    So in essence, it dosent matter. No matter who Flayra and the devs picked for playtesting 1.1, there will always be jealous people thinking it was their god given right to playtest 1.1.

    On a side note, I too feel jealous of the playtesters and veterans for getting to do what they do. You know what I think? I think to myself that they are the ones that will make 1.1 balanced when it comes out, they are doing me and the community a favour. I know that not everyone can be in a closed beta test, and that not everyone can have access to the 1.1 betas due to it's incredible size of somewhere in the ballpark of 100 Mb. There HAS to be a limited number of PT'ers so that strategies can be planned and tested and that a coherent stream of data can flow in. Can you imagine if the devs had to read through thousands of bug report emails on 1.1? Or uber strategies used? It would drive them insane.

    Keep the PT pool small. We can be jealous of them all we like, but ultimately they are doing us the favour, and we must be grateful for that fact.
  • Mike_Billy_Ray_EarlMike_Billy_Ray_Earl Join Date: 2003-06-07 Member: 17075Members
    <a href='http://www.geocities.com/fo_man2000/nscommunity.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/fo_man2000/nscommunity.htm</a>

    I was planning on posting this some time ago, but I feared the entire thread would be deleted if I did so, as I've seen done in the past. It's not at all off topic and is completely appropriate.
  • NSCypherNSCypher Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12758Members
    Hmm.... some of that may be valid, but the bit about "most" of the PTs being "morons" is ridiculous and I would think quite offensive to the PTs themselves. I can quite understand how you expect the thread to be deleted after you posted that link, as it is not the most polite document I've ever seen. Contrary to your comments that was most definitely not appropriate here.
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
    No pai for arjungita.
  • TorgoTorgo Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11626Members
    Actually, I find the most disturbing thing about that whole rant is the whole clan eve selling spots on eBay thing...Is that legit?
    I also find it interesting that banned forum user Syn|Borf is the high bidder at the moment...
  • CowswinCowswin Join Date: 2003-03-17 Member: 14623Banned, Constellation
    You've gotta be a moron to bid on that considering they allow access based on WON ID which means they'd have to basically give you their HL CD-Key so you could install under their ID...

    I think that's how it works anyway... And don't you think Flay would see the sudden change in IP addresses?
  • FrikkFrikk Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3164Members, Constellation
    eve as a clan is not playtesting anymore.
  • romanoromano Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4296Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Torgo27+Jun 13 2003, 10:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Torgo27 @ Jun 13 2003, 10:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, I find the most disturbing thing about that whole rant is the whole clan eve selling spots on eBay thing...Is that legit?
    I also find it interesting that banned forum user Syn|Borf is the high bidder at the moment... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The Ebay auction is a joke from a member who was removed from the Playtest.
    And, eve as a clan is longer playtesting, so his ebay point is moot.
  • DistroDistro Join Date: 2003-06-13 Member: 17341Members
    I should hope the hell they arent. Arrogant ****. My feelings for eve, and all the other 'top' clans aside, that article is full of valid and well thought out points, and i can do nothing but agree wholeheartedly. Not only do i firmly believe that the general incompetence which runs rampant in the general ns community (especially the brits and the germans, whom ive tried on multiple occasions to play alongside, only to have them prove time and time again they have no concept of teamplay strategy or the ability to think straight) - back to what i was saying, the general incompetence infests many of the top clans as much as it does any others. I say this with the full intent of soudning derogatory. Almost every time that ive played with a member (or worse yet multiple members at once) of a supposed top clan ive found them to be nothing more than below average, overconfident raging asshats. Ive been accused of cheating by them, kicked for 'doing the wrong thing' (the wrong thing usually being something like 'not doing exactly what the admin guy says') and generally insulted and derided by these leeter-than-thou friggin-kids. With people like that 'ensureing the playability' of a currently unbalanced game i can come to no conclusion other than that ns 1.1 will initially be a failure, only to shortly after its release find a need to move on to 1.2 to fix all the crap that will inevitable not work the way it was intended. On a final note, the article which Mike Billy Ray Earl |X| there posted is entirely correct in its assumptions about the advantages that will doubtlessly be gleaned by the testers, whom will be, in a way, redesigning this game to their own specifications. Theres only a few things wrong with natural selection - and none of them have to do with the game itself... only the people who 'lead the community' and the community itself. This is my first, and God willing last post. Im done with your 'community'.

    Good day.

    -Distro
  • eliotmateliotmat Join Date: 2002-12-01 Member: 10350Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    If I was a game/mod developer I would choose my friends who play NS to beta test it over all others.

    I would also have message boards where verbal pwnage. I would do much of the pwning.

    Long story short: Too bad you didn't get picked. Suck it up and spend some sleepless nights playing "catch-up" to get your skills on par with the skills of the testers.
  • laggerlagger Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1805Members
    edited June 2003
    Just regarding anyone who stated that beta testers will get an advantage over everyone else due to the pt. I would go against this because all the strats we come up with that are very good are ushally countered in the next build which never lasts for more then 2 weeks. When nsv1.1 comes out leagues give a 2 week waiting period for any type of competition for clans to test and then devise strats. By that time its in my belief that dedicated clans will have grips on v1.1 to play just as competitivly as any clan that was in pt. Its not really how much time you have to devise the plan thats hard, its working on the group of people your playing with to know how they operate and how to play with them, TEAMWORK people <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.

    Distro: You just generalized germans and brits to be stupid, how are you trying to make a believable statement when you start your comments like that. Also, if you believe brits are "stupid" then do you include the head pt grendal? Who in my belief strives more then 90% of the ns community for social tied games. By the sounds of your post you seem to be someone who makes their opinion off little to no fact other then the one or two expierences that dont contain enough support for any kind of statement.
  • StoneburgStoneburg Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
    I'm just amazed that people actually WANT to be beta-testers. I prefer playing as a bug-free and tested product as possible. Weirdos.
  • Brave_UlyssesBrave_Ulysses Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15922Members
    edited June 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--arjungita+Jun 12 2003, 09:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (arjungita @ Jun 12 2003, 09:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe there has been 5000 topics with this same subject, but I wanted to put my own 2 cents in.  Favoritism in 1.1 testing killed my desire to play NS.

    Why....now that's a good question.

    I suppose its because I enjoyed league and competitive play so much, and I don't see any question that these months of beta testing 1.1 by the "elite" few will basically make the highest echelons of competitive play unattainable. 

    It's similar to a counterstrike clan trying to get into competitive play now, after all the best groups and players know the winning map strategies like the back of their hand, there's simply no hope.

    The elitest attitude towards testing is such a complete slap in the face for many players, there's no doubt it has not only killed the popularity of NS, but also created a rift between the makers and the community.  I've never heard of a beta test done in such a selective manner with total disregard to the future of its competitive scene, its like mod suicide in my opinion.

    I'm sure 1.1 will come out and be a fantastic game, in addition being free will be something no one can complain about if they want to have a good time.  But for me, and I'm sure a lot of others, the prolonged special treatment and exclusivity of learning the strategies and tactics coming in 1.1 is just ridiculous. 

    Would it be different if I were in the beta?  Probably not.  The only reason being that I am not a irc-fanatic like almost all of the top ranking clan members.  I don't like to idle in chat, I don't like to chit-chat about nonsense, and I certainly don't care for the culture behind IRC, which is now the culture inherent in the 1.1 testing group. 

    Anyway, gg all, 1.04 RIP. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't agree at this point but I certainly see what you mean. How can you play when all the big names have already come up with winning tactics and know every nuance of every strategy? Although not directly related to NS this irks me (or IRCs me <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) about MP games that receive release in America months before they do in Europe.
  • CronosCronos Join Date: 2002-10-18 Member: 1542Members
    As much as I hate to point this out, this thread will most likely descend into a flame war.

    Before that happens, I'd like to post my view of the NS community since so many others seem so eager to.

    The NS community I find to be great. I have been part of 4 forum communities before this, and the NS community on these boards are good compared to some. Compared to the overall CS community, we are vastly better, though CS does have a far larger fan base. I find clanners to simply be other pubbers that are just a bit more organised. They find the strats that make and break games. It was a clan that discovered the turret crawl, it was a clan that discovered the JP/HMG rush. That is why clans play with the playtesters. They excel at finding strats that are overpowering or unbalanced.

    This attitude of the clans being all arseholes is faintly ludicrous. It's like saying the rich only wish to exploit the poor. Some do, but most dont. Some even help the poor out. The PT's are the ones helping to perfect the game and bring it to you in the most bug free balanced form possible. If the clans are not being honest in their reports to flayra, so what? Whenever they use whatever devastating tactic they have been holing up, they will be found out and the tactic will be fixed. Code is seldom written in stone.

    The community as a whole is self regulating. It does not need to be organised. The NS community as a whole are light hearted, understanding and patient. Sure you might get yelled at in game if your new, but if you cant handle a bit of name calling, how in the world did you make it through school?

    There is only one reason to deride the PT's/Vets and one reason alone. "I didnt get picked and I want to bea playtester". News Flash. The world does not revolve around you. The NS community does not revolve around you. You are but insignificant individuals that are part of the fold. If you play NS, you are part of the community. Dont like the community? Get the hell out then. It's not like moving house, just find another mod you like to play and go to their forums.

    Finally, since it is 1:40 AM, I think I will sum up with a wise saying.

    "A wise man will speak becuase he has something to say. A fool will speak becuase he must say something"
  • Mythr1lMythr1l Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12772Members
    imo the NS playtesting is fine, picking the best players and best clans in NS is the right way to go as they generally have more knowlage of the game, id rather see top clans testing NS than some random newbie who is angry that he cant play 1.1.
  • IncitatusIncitatus Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4316Members
    edited June 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--arjungita+Jun 13 2003, 02:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (arjungita @ Jun 13 2003, 02:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe there has been 5000 topics with this same subject, but I wanted to put my own 2 cents in.  Favoritism in 1.1 testing killed my desire to play NS.

    Why....now that's a good question.

    I suppose its because I enjoyed league and competitive play so much, and I don't see any question that these months of beta testing 1.1 by the "elite" few will basically make the highest echelons of competitive play unattainable. 

    It's similar to a counterstrike clan trying to get into competitive play now, after all the best groups and players know the winning map strategies like the back of their hand, there's simply no hope.

    The elitest attitude towards testing is such a complete slap in the face for many players, there's no doubt it has not only killed the popularity of NS, but also created a rift between the makers and the community.  I've never heard of a beta test done in such a selective manner with total disregard to the future of its competitive scene, its like mod suicide in my opinion.

    I'm sure 1.1 will come out and be a fantastic game, in addition being free will be something no one can complain about if they want to have a good time.  But for me, and I'm sure a lot of others, the prolonged special treatment and exclusivity of learning the strategies and tactics coming in 1.1 is just ridiculous. 

    Would it be different if I were in the beta?  Probably not.  The only reason being that I am not a irc-fanatic like almost all of the top ranking clan members.  I don't like to idle in chat, I don't like to chit-chat about nonsense, and I certainly don't care for the culture behind IRC, which is now the culture inherent in the 1.1 testing group. 

    Anyway, gg all, 1.04 RIP. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    excellent point.

    'I'm just amazed that people actually WANT to be beta-testers. I prefer playing as a bug-free and tested product as possible. Weirdos. '

    Lol I am totally the opposite. I would love to beta test, finding all the bugs testing stuff out.
  • TalesinTalesin Our own little well of hate Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
    Given that this has been talked over, through, out, down, up, sideways, and to a pulp....


    <span style='color:red'>*Locked.*</span>
This discussion has been closed.