1.1 Hive Link With Evolutions
FiendHZ
Join Date: 2003-04-04 Member: 15201Members
Join Date: 2003-04-04 Member: 15201Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Possible solution to this problem</div> I know, I rarely post on here, for the reason that I only really read the beta forum and can't post there. But I've been keeping myself updated on the hive problem, and it seems as if nobody is ever going to agree on it. So, I've got a solution. Once you get a hive, you can ALWAYS evolve to that alien, even if you later lose the hive. That way, if you manage to get three hives but the marines beat you back down to one, you can still get onos (if you want to save for it), albeit weakened. Then you have a chance to come back, and at least a glimmer of hope that will hopefully keep too many people from quitting early. On the flip side, an alien team still has to be aggressive and get the hive in the first place, so if the marines can keep them from doing so, they still won't have to too hard. It would keep lockdowns from being quite as bad (a ninja fatty could still throw up the hive and then secure you the evolutions to help). The only problem is you would have to code it somehow so that they don't get the same hive three times and thereby get onos without having to secure anything.
Personally, I wouldn't mind it with or without, but having it without and limiting to one onos would be very, very bad. I like to play aliens and I don't want to listen to a bunch of people whine because they didn't get to go onos.
On a sorta side note, the res for kills thing sounds good, except that gorges, who need it more, would get jipped in that deal. Therefore, I say you bring back sucking. Besides, it sounded like it would be really cool, and I wanted to try it. Either that, or make it so the gorge gets more res from res towers like it used to, but that would lead to people getting mad if there was more than one gorge again, which, last I knew, you were trying to avoid.
Just my thoughts on the matter. Hope somebody actually affiliated with 1.1 reads this, but I know your all busy.
Personally, I wouldn't mind it with or without, but having it without and limiting to one onos would be very, very bad. I like to play aliens and I don't want to listen to a bunch of people whine because they didn't get to go onos.
On a sorta side note, the res for kills thing sounds good, except that gorges, who need it more, would get jipped in that deal. Therefore, I say you bring back sucking. Besides, it sounded like it would be really cool, and I wanted to try it. Either that, or make it so the gorge gets more res from res towers like it used to, but that would lead to people getting mad if there was more than one gorge again, which, last I knew, you were trying to avoid.
Just my thoughts on the matter. Hope somebody actually affiliated with 1.1 reads this, but I know your all busy.
Comments
1 hive fade is not an uber killing machine, but it is better for a skulk for attacking a fortified position. In the current system, aliens do not have any legitimate way of "sieging" a heavily defended position. This means that a team with less resources, very little strategy, and possibly less individual skill, can indefinately hold off the aliens.
If you allow fades at 1 hive, marines will still have the 2 hive lockdown as a viable strategy. BUT the marines will still have to outplay the aliens, denying them resources and grouping up to defend bases from serios threats. 1 hive Fades are strong enough to be dangerous, but only in groups. And they can be made expensive enough that aliens will have to outplay the marines and control a large majority of the resources if they hope to afford enough fades to make a difference.
The 2 hive lockdown should be a viable strategy, but it should not be a guaranteed win as it is in 1.04
Heh... wild thought: chambers enabling you to fade, onos, or lerk. One chamber per hive just like upgrade chambers. Kill the chamber, they can't evolve to it's relative evolution. Kill the hive, they can still use the chambers to evolve to that level. And the coolest thing about it: they can choose to get Onos at hive one at the sacrifice of not being able to go lerk or fade until they get another hive. More strategy/choice, hive lockdowns could be broken, evolutions still based on res, marines can counter and cripple the aliens by taking out the chamber (ie. more tactics for marines). Now, I'm not suggesting it, but it's an interesting thought that crossed my mind. Only bad thing is that you'd have to model three more chambers unless you can come up with a creative way to bypass that. (for example: if someone goes Onos at one hive, no one can go lerk or fade unless all Onos die or they get another hive, meaning the Onos itself acts as the chamber in my idea)
Or you could tie it to upgrade chambers.
DCs make oni.
MCs make fades.
SCs make lerks.
They are ballancing too much.. every strat is being overturned, whats the point ?
It seems the side with better players are gonna win 1.1 games, not the side with good ideas or strategies. And thats a shame.
- RD
They are ballancing too much.. every strat is being overturned, whats the point ?
It seems the side with better players are gonna win 1.1 games, not the side with good ideas or strategies. And thats a shame. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In short. I disagree entirely. Flay's experimenting. He wants NS to be very strat oriented, etc, and he's not sure how to make that happen so he's testing things like a mad scientist. If he stumbles in the dark ocasionally, please, keep in mind he's doing a better job than most. That being said, do you know how long the average game is in devel? Heh, a LONG time, lemme tell ya. 1.1 is coming out like aburger in a fast food joint by comparison. Ok, enough compliant bashing.
That being said, I think people are jumping the gun here. I've got a anti-Hivelockdown idea that can only work in 1.1, and would be impossible to test in 1.04 (or even the unofficial 1.05.) So, any PT's please, try this:
o Marines are allowed to lock down 2 hives. They then tech up, and do some skulk hunting.
o Aliens Choose Sensory as thier 1st upgrade. An alien gets silence.
o The silenced gorge build sensory chambers every so often so as to stay cloaked. He does this till he enters the hive he wants to build *remember it's locked down*
o No matter what, the gorge cannot let himself decloak!!
o The gorge then starts building the hive, and a few movement chanmbers beneath it to speed up the growth
o After the 2nd hive is up, aliens go fade, and take down the marines in the hive they just built.
o Now, Marines only have oine hive locked down, aliens have 2, and they can try to repeat for the 3rd hive.
All this assumes that the gorge building sounds are silenced when a gorge gets silence. They should be, IMHO. If they aren't, then this assumes no marines in the room to hear it. It also assumes that turrets won't fire on cloaked aliens/buildings.
Or you could tie it to upgrade chambers.
DCs make oni.
MCs make fades.
SCs make lerks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, that would be limiting to strategies, which is not what we're looking for.
After looking over my idea again, I seem to like it still. Is it too unintuitive? In the non-chamber method, do you see people getting mad if somebody goes lerk early without waiting for Fades? I guess the same applies to the chamber method if a Gorge picks an undesireable. However, we already have that aspect with the upgrade chambers so it would be nothing new.
My solution would be to simply can (yes, bin it) and think of a new alien for tier 3.
I've always felt the aliens were somewhat logical in their design EXCEPT for the onos. From the alien bacterias view, a large lumbering creature that is severely hampered movement wise would not be a good choice. It just doesn't fit with the general theme of the aliens army. Lerks, skulks and fades are ALL highly mobile troops. Skulks being sneaky attackers, lerks being the support unit and fades as shock troops. I agree that out of this mixture the aliens lack a heavy offence, but perhaps it would be best to chance the onos to something else.
As it is now the onos just doesn't seem to work. It has far too much HP and armour for marines to deal with effectively (at least this is my impression) and is too strong ability wise. The problem comes when you get too many of them they are impossible to stop, and because they are a 'ultimate' unit they have been built this way. If we examine HA, the HA does NOT get a large increase in HP. This does mean even a skulk can take down an HMG/HA marine (difficult, but I've done it before). When was the last time you've seen a LMG marine take down an Onos? Unless he has been getting a severe beating I've rarely seen it happen. This is just supported more by the "OMG LOL!LOLOLOL! I KILLED TEH ONOS! I AER L33+!!!" that follows such an event.
Personally, I think going to the insect world would be the better solution, more in theme with the general army as well. We have two quadrupeds, a biped and a flier, might as well go for 6 or 8 limbs next. There are many creatures there that would make suitably 'alien' creatures for a 3 hive alien that would work better. Personally the teir 3 alien needs to be heavy support as opposed to a melee unit. The fade and skulk BOTH do this well enough (and in fact, the fades melee is grossly underated). The aliens do NOT need another heavy melee unit, especially one that makes all the other aliens irrelevant!
Really, the 100 res alien (if we have an open evolution) must be something good, without being something EVERYONE wants to get. It could be perhaps useful if it had auras or abilities that complemented other aliens? Perhaps a gas aura that increased adrenaline gains. Of course, it should have a powerful primary attack (perhaps life leech, IE a large tongue for sucking blood such as the assasin bug, see picture)
<img src='http://www.ivyhall.district96.k12.il.us/4th/kkhp/1insects/bugpix/assa1oregst.JPEG' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
I just don't see the point of the onos as it just dominates, not complements an alien side. I think it needs to be rethought out.
1-2 rt : Only basic lifeforms
3-5 rt : Fades can be build
6+ rt : Onos can be build
This would prevent that the aliens turtle in their hive till they got some onos and would make it very hard for the marines to deny higher lifeforms to the aliens. It would lead both teams to play aggressively since the marines need to kill the nodes to ensure that no onos show up while aliens need to expand to get the higher lifeforms. And lockdowns wouldnt be possible since no marine team can controll all the res nodes of the map. (If they can then the aliens suck)
No it's not. You can build the chambers without having a 2nd hive, you just don't get the upgrades. How is that impossible?
As it is now the onos just doesn't seem to work. It has far too much HP and armour for marines to deal with effectively (at least this is my impression) and is too strong ability wise. The problem comes when you get too many of them they are impossible to stop, and because they are a 'ultimate' unit they have been built this way. If we examine HA, the HA does NOT get a large increase in HP. This does mean even a skulk can take down an HMG/HA marine (difficult, but I've done it before). When was the last time you've seen a LMG marine take down an Onos? Unless he has been getting a severe beating I've rarely seen it happen. This is just supported more by the "OMG LOL!LOLOLOL! I KILLED TEH ONOS! I AER L33+!!!" that follows such an event.
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Actually, I totally disagree. I belive the onos is oneof the few ballanced points in the game. Believe it or not, it's for the same reasons you gave for it being unballanced!
<b>It has far too much HP and armour for marines to deal with effectively (at least this is my impression) and is too strong ability wise.</b>
Right! One lone marine CANNOT take down an onos. 3 marines working together, can. PERFECT!
<b>When was the last time you've seen a LMG marine take down an Onos? </b>
An LMG should NEVER take down a onos. I doubt it should ever even take down a fade. Lone Marines should NEVER win against anything but maybe the odd lerk, and a lone skulk, depending on skill levels. If a LMG can take down a onos, the onos needs more health, IMHO. If 3 LMGers can take it down, well, it's almost right. If 4 CAN'T take it down, then I'd say it's a lil over powered.
The only issue witht he onos is that it comes a little too early in the PT games for my tastes. Something will be done about it, I'm sure. I really don't forsee them canning the Onos, since the ONOS is the only dang thing that actually forces marines to team up against it!!!!! When will people realize that it's ok if the aliens stomp on marines that are unorganized? It's only when they play as a team that they should ever win!
No it's not. You can build the chambers without having a 2nd hive, you just don't get the upgrades. How is that impossible? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, thats just not true lol
And two onos can't be beat by 6 marines? What hapens if you have 3 onos? GG alien.
Balanced? NO.
Why should aliens be able to smash multiple marines, yet single aliens take out single marines? This is WHY it is imbalanced, because you DON'T just get 3 marines vs ONE onos. You get 3 marines vs a mixture of other aliens.
This is flawed thinking and is not good. Perhaps I've come from too much of an RTS background where units have counter strategies. An onos should be heavy SUPPORT, not GG you got 2+ onos.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->An LMG should NEVER take down a onos. I doubt it should ever even take down a fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It should take down both. Why is it that a skulk should be able to kill HMG marines by getting the drop on them, or just by getting lucky enough with the fire cone. Why should a lerk be able to smack marines with spores or spikes? Surely if we're going to apply the logic that one onos should not be beaten by LMG marines, then HA should be invulnerable to tier 1 aliens (Gorges, lerks and skulks) which is not the case.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lone Marines should NEVER win against anything but maybe the odd lerk, and a lone skulk, depending on skill levels.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this should depend on the marine, a skulk vs marine should depend on who was tactically smarter. A marine vs skulk in corridor=marine win. A skulk that gets close to a marine=skulk wins. Again, tactics should make a difference here. Lerks are a support unit as well, a lerk should lose to a marine EVERY time unsupported.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If a LMG can take down a onos, the onos needs more health, IMHO. If 3 LMGers can take it down, well, it's almost right.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3 LMG's can't take it down, and if the onos is any good 1 or 2 marines will be dead ANYWAY before it gets into trouble.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If 4 CAN'T take it down, then I'd say it's a lil over powered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why don't you think its overpowered?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only issue witht he onos is that it comes a little too early in the PT games for my tastes. Something will be done about it, I'm sure. I really don't forsee them canning the Onos, since the ONOS is the only dang thing that actually forces marines to team up against it!!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A combined alien arms should force a marine team to gang up. You should have mixtures of weapons (classes) against mixtures of alien evolutions. This would make for a far more interesting and dynamic game, rather then just as many aliens as possible going onos for the GG you win. Onos is a tier 3 unit, but so are things like grenades for marines. Tier 3 should have an equal chance against tier 3. All Tier 3 SHOULD be owned soundly by a mixture of Tier 2/3, in the same way that all tier 2 should be owned by tier 1/2 mixture.
If 1 type of unit can dominate completely then it is NOT good balance. If 1 kind of strategy or unit requires a counter that is more strenuous then the actual initial unit it is NOT balanced.
The funniest thing about it is you sound EXACTLY like the people who didn't want the mutalisk changed in starcraft!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When will people realize that it's ok if the aliens stomp on marines that are unorganized? It's only when they play as a team that they should ever win! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. I believe BOTH TEAMS SHOULD HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER TO WIN. This creates a far more interesting game, especially if RTS unit mixtures are required to counter enemy mixtures. This would promote strat/counter strat which is a GOOD thing.
Disagree? Look at starcraft compared to Warcraft 3 initially. Then look at Warcraft: The Frozen Throne against Warcraft 3 classic. The games that people prefer are WC:TFT and Starcraft because there aren't strategies that own up and there are far more options.
If going onos requires far more investment from the enemy team to stop that is an imbalance. Pure and simple.
-Evolution of Lifeforms are linked to the number of Hives. But their weapons are not.
-Gorge can upgrade the Hive. Upgraded Hive enables aliens to use higher weapon slots.
-Hive upgrade level is max3. Level1(at start)=Weapon Slot2, level2=Slot3, Level3=Slot4
-Res for Hive upgrade is 75% of Building a Hive.
-They dont need to upgrade all Hives. If only One of three Hives are upgraded, this assures using higher weapon slots.
If this is done:
-Aliens can use their resources for Hive upgrade when 2Hives are lockdown.
-Skulk, Gorge, Lerk can use all weapons at 1Hive.
-They can take back occupied Hives with umbra, bilebomb, web, xenocide etc.
-Evolution of Lifeforms are linked to the number of Hives. But their weapons are not.
-Gorge can upgrade the Hive. Upgraded Hive enables aliens to use higher weapon slots.
-Hive upgrade level is max3. Level1(at start)=Weapon Slot2, level2=Slot3, Level3=Slot4
-Res for Hive upgrade is 75% of Building a Hive.
-They dont need to upgrade all Hives. If only One of three Hives are upgraded, this assures using higher weapon slots.
If this is done:
-Aliens can use their resources for Hive upgrade when 2Hives are lockdown.
-Skulk, Gorge, Lerk can use all weapons at 1Hive.
-They can take back occupied Hives with umbra, bilebomb, web, xenocide etc. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't a bad idea actually.
What I wouldn't mind seeing hives doing is allowing for greater res flow perhaps to aliens?
If we take into account the 'fluff' for the aliens then more hives=more resources. Especially as these are supposed to be energy sinks (hence the places where they grow).
Could be an idea.
The more hives aliens have, the more health they have. For example:
1 Hive Skulk: 70HP
2 Hive Skulk: 80HP
3 Hive Skulk: 90HP
1 Hive Gorge: 100HP
2 Hive Gorge: 115HP
3 Hive Gorge: 130HP
1 Hive Lerk: 70HP
2 Hive Lerk: 85HP
3 Hive Lerk: 100HP
1 Hive Fade: 150HP
2 Hive Fade: 175HP
3 Hive Fade: 200HP
1 Hive onos: 300HP
2 Hive onos: 400HP
3 Hive onos: 500HP
Of course, those numbers could be changed to anything, its just an example. So instead of lifeforms limited to hives, There health is limited on to how many hives they have.
Ya know, there really isnt a problem with hive lockdowns at all. Its a 100% viable strategy and isnt exactly easy to pull off. It requires a lot of coordination, a lot of obedience, a lot of res, and marines that can actually perform and be able to hold places by themselves.
Its very simple...if you dont want one of your hives to be locked down, then you get a fatty there to build up defense BEFORE the hive, and keep some skulks in that area to protect against incoming marines. If the marines cant get to the area, how can they secure it? Teeeeamwork fellas =)