Martigen: The Voice Of Sanity
RyoOhki
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Have the vets and pts gone INSANE!?</div> I wanted to post this reply of Martigens in the beta forum. It's in a bizzare thread that many of us I presume have already read.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yegads! This is crazy talk!
Bottom line (one of hundreds here): Hive lockdowns = people F4
It's that simple. Hive lockdowns are not fun. When games are not fun, people leave. When people leave, after a while they stop playing. Take look at the all '1.04 is no more' posts in General.
People don't like a game which puts them in a situation where they can't fight back. With all evolutions available, there is always the possibility of winning, and so people will stay and play. The game isn't over until the last enemy falls. With hive linking, the game is over as soon as there is no chance of a comeback for either side. Even an unlikely comeback is reason to stick around and fight it out to the end, but being physically prevented by the game engine to have a comeback means people have no reason to continue playing. Hence, people don't have fun and they F4.
Bottom line #2: Linking evolutions to hives = hive lockdowns
And almost always unbreakable at that. This is has been discussed at length, but the very nature of a lockdown means it prevents the aliens having any chance of using higher evolutions to take it back. This is why, not unsurprsingly, the hive lockdown becomes the best, fastest route to marine victory. The game then becomes about either getting a 2 hive lockdown as soon as possible, or preventing a 2 hive lockdown as soon as possible, every single game. Bye bye open ended strategies, hello linear gameplay all over again.
The best games I've had in 1.1 have been when we, as marines, were on the ball non-stop, dividing our time between attacking alien resource nodes and attacking hives. These games have been the most awesome I have ever played. If you return to hive limitaitons and the lockdowns they allow, it'll all come back to just the same target, always a focus on the hives. So what if they have nodes? It's res they can't use and means m00t for hive 1 aliens. We'll lose one of the best new features of 1.1 -- taking the battle to the field, across the whole map, fighting over nodes as well as hives.
Therefore, bottom line #3: Hive linked evolutions = bad mojo!
Something really really important:
A game with more open ended strategies and tactics has a longer playing life, and allows a greater range of skills to blossom. Putting a hive limit on the aliens reduces the possibilities of play for the game. This is something we want to avoid. If the problem is the power of the Onos, there are other ways to balance it -- do it in terms of the cost to go Onos, its damage, the strength of its abilities, and its health and armor.
Even so, pre 1.1q played beautifully with Onos appearing every now and then, and a rush of adrenaline at downing one that is unparalled. Hive linking means the Onos will, yet again, be a unit destined soley for cleaning up versus a marine side that's already lost and where, even if they kill one, it will have no impact on the outcome of the game. There will be little victory thrill in downing one, because it's already game over.
Ack, I could go on but I'd do my usual fifty page post. All up: hive linking limits gameplay, reduces the variety and fun of battles with varied evolutions, creates a linear gameplay style of the same strategy over and over again, and prevents both sides from having any chance of a comeback, of strategically and skillfully turning the tide, even if they have skills and tactical ability to do so. And yet these are the type of games that people remember, that people love the most. This speaks for itself.
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In these simple few paragraphs Martigen has expressed what I believe is the veiw of the vast majoirty of the NS community. 2 hive lockdowns are dead boring, horribly viable and well nigh impossible to break. <b>They should not be in the game</b>. Full stop. To hear the other pts and vets expressing that they actually WANT hive-based evolutions sounds not only crazy but is dangerous talk as well. The problem, as Martigen so clearly sees, is not the ability for the aliens to reach higher life-forms: it is the sheer power of the onos. And as Martigen also points out, there are other ways to solve the problem of the onos being too strong: armour/health tweaks ect.
My sincerest thanks to you my fellow Australian. Perhaps your wize words can steer the minds of your comrades back to sanity once more <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yegads! This is crazy talk!
Bottom line (one of hundreds here): Hive lockdowns = people F4
It's that simple. Hive lockdowns are not fun. When games are not fun, people leave. When people leave, after a while they stop playing. Take look at the all '1.04 is no more' posts in General.
People don't like a game which puts them in a situation where they can't fight back. With all evolutions available, there is always the possibility of winning, and so people will stay and play. The game isn't over until the last enemy falls. With hive linking, the game is over as soon as there is no chance of a comeback for either side. Even an unlikely comeback is reason to stick around and fight it out to the end, but being physically prevented by the game engine to have a comeback means people have no reason to continue playing. Hence, people don't have fun and they F4.
Bottom line #2: Linking evolutions to hives = hive lockdowns
And almost always unbreakable at that. This is has been discussed at length, but the very nature of a lockdown means it prevents the aliens having any chance of using higher evolutions to take it back. This is why, not unsurprsingly, the hive lockdown becomes the best, fastest route to marine victory. The game then becomes about either getting a 2 hive lockdown as soon as possible, or preventing a 2 hive lockdown as soon as possible, every single game. Bye bye open ended strategies, hello linear gameplay all over again.
The best games I've had in 1.1 have been when we, as marines, were on the ball non-stop, dividing our time between attacking alien resource nodes and attacking hives. These games have been the most awesome I have ever played. If you return to hive limitaitons and the lockdowns they allow, it'll all come back to just the same target, always a focus on the hives. So what if they have nodes? It's res they can't use and means m00t for hive 1 aliens. We'll lose one of the best new features of 1.1 -- taking the battle to the field, across the whole map, fighting over nodes as well as hives.
Therefore, bottom line #3: Hive linked evolutions = bad mojo!
Something really really important:
A game with more open ended strategies and tactics has a longer playing life, and allows a greater range of skills to blossom. Putting a hive limit on the aliens reduces the possibilities of play for the game. This is something we want to avoid. If the problem is the power of the Onos, there are other ways to balance it -- do it in terms of the cost to go Onos, its damage, the strength of its abilities, and its health and armor.
Even so, pre 1.1q played beautifully with Onos appearing every now and then, and a rush of adrenaline at downing one that is unparalled. Hive linking means the Onos will, yet again, be a unit destined soley for cleaning up versus a marine side that's already lost and where, even if they kill one, it will have no impact on the outcome of the game. There will be little victory thrill in downing one, because it's already game over.
Ack, I could go on but I'd do my usual fifty page post. All up: hive linking limits gameplay, reduces the variety and fun of battles with varied evolutions, creates a linear gameplay style of the same strategy over and over again, and prevents both sides from having any chance of a comeback, of strategically and skillfully turning the tide, even if they have skills and tactical ability to do so. And yet these are the type of games that people remember, that people love the most. This speaks for itself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In these simple few paragraphs Martigen has expressed what I believe is the veiw of the vast majoirty of the NS community. 2 hive lockdowns are dead boring, horribly viable and well nigh impossible to break. <b>They should not be in the game</b>. Full stop. To hear the other pts and vets expressing that they actually WANT hive-based evolutions sounds not only crazy but is dangerous talk as well. The problem, as Martigen so clearly sees, is not the ability for the aliens to reach higher life-forms: it is the sheer power of the onos. And as Martigen also points out, there are other ways to solve the problem of the onos being too strong: armour/health tweaks ect.
My sincerest thanks to you my fellow Australian. Perhaps your wize words can steer the minds of your comrades back to sanity once more <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
It is the reason, not JP/HMG that many players simply gave up 1.04 to wait for 1.1...
I'm glad Martigen and Archaven are the voice of sanity in this regard.
Exactly, so aliens sit there for 20 more minutes waiting for the marines to just tech to lvl 3 armor and hmg/jp.
Its the exact problem of NS right now, and it needs adressing if this game wants to grow.
But yes, he is right. Nothing annoys me more than a hive deadlock. Marines take the two free hives, Aliens cap every node on the map. We had enough res to build ten hives, but as they'd fall immediately we resorted to spamming ocs everywhere in the map. This in turn just builds on the problem... marines cant get out of their spawn, aliens can get in. I remember thinking "If this was 1.1 we'd have won by now." I haven't been Onos in a public game for... as far back as I can remember.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The best games I've had in 1.1 have been when we, as marines, were on the ball non-stop, dividing our time between attacking alien resource nodes and attacking hives. These games have been the most awesome I have ever played. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what I want to see in 1.1. Games just don't have enough "flow", with either side having won maybe ten minutes into the game but having to tech up just to strike the finishing blow. Having no restrictions on evolutions at hive 1 forces the marines to strangle the aliens from every angle, res-wise and hive-wise, or be overwhelmed.
Fun.
(I admit, not all games are like that, but enough to make me stop playing)
We should take this to some sort of poll ? Let our voices be heard. I'm confident the majority will be against hive-dependant morphs.
Martigen points it out VERY toroughly
<span style='font-size:27pt;line-height:100%'><b><span style='font-family:impact'>HURRAY FOR MARTIGEN</span></b></span>
"I spill my drink !! "
I never said that hive lockdowns weren't bad...
I think that the hive restrictions are good for clan play.. but I suppose they are kinda bad for public play. I guess that we'll end up catering to public play on this issue.
Its ironic to see a thread screaming about how VALVe mucked up CS & DoD by making it overly newbie friendly... and yet at the same time see 10 million other threads demanding that the game be made more newbie friendly. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
My thoughts on this follow (release the hounds):
Basically, the most difficult issue for Flayra to balance has nothing to do with game code. Its an issue of making a game that appeals to hard-core players like me, and also appeals to more casual players (somebody who only plays a few hours a week in spare time).
Its certainly a tough cookie to crack. In just about every game I've ever been familiar with, in the end, the developers want players to keep coming back (whether is a free game or subscription based), and that means alienating the hardcore players and appeasing the fresh blood.
P.S. Martigen is looking out for the opinions of the "fresh blood" forum goers, no wonder you guys treat him like a hero. IMO, he's using forum h4x. He used to be a silly flaming newb on the forums, and lately he's been popping in with all these insightful posts. Heh
Or maybe do the "free chamber" thing discussed many times. This would make basic entities more powerful and effective.
But I still think that "all creatures with 1 hive but weak as children" is the best solution as 2 hive lockdowns CAN be torn down with a full offensive without becoming 100% reliable match turning points.
Just my 2c!
The fact that the 2 hive lockdown has become a predominent strat again just makes it obvious that if the marines take over hive locations, they can tech up at their leisure with little fear of retaliation (as they grow stronger by the second, the aliens stay at the same strength). That's their point, not that 2 hive lockdowns are boring. I know that this is a counterflame, but you guys should seriously read his post, and not just say "yup F4'ing on a 2 hive lockdown, yup it's boring, nope I don't want to think about countering the strat." That doesn't help. Try this instead,
If we weaken the higher tier'ed aliens, it would be both more competitive and fun (as the aliens gain abilities from capturing hives, therefore they still want to get hives, it just doesn't have to be highest priority). This would put the game back into the resource fight it was meant to be, and if you work on the res system long enough, level 1 weapons and armor could be comparable to 1 1/2 hive aliens, etc. etc. *INSERT RANDOM FIX HERE* I don't really care, I'm not actually involved in beta testing.
With all due respect, I do not think that any of the posters on this thread so far have been anywhere near what you seem to be implying here.
I want to see this thread get as much attention as possible because I feel it crictical to the success of NS as a fun game to play. And I honestly believe the majority feel the same as Martigen. If we choose to give his statements our "stamp of approval" does that somehow offend you ?
If you're looking for suggestions i.e. how to balance the game without having to resort to some sort of hive dependant morph scheme I have suggested something similar to many others: Make the aliens less powerful with one hive, more powerful at 2 and so on. I'd rather have some sort of structure that needs to be built like an "Onos den" or something. At least that way you could have some say as the to placement of said structure unlike hive positions which are fixed.
While suggestions are helpful I feel the key issue of the thread is to say this: "The majority of the players do not want a 2 + hive-dependant Fade/Onos. There must be other ways to balance the game. Please find those ways."
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I haven't actually played 1.1, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the one hive model be MORE demanding of both teams? It opens up so many more options strategically (for aliens anyway... ) and forces the opposing team to counter them effectively, rather than just choosing a path at the start of the game and sticking to it. The team that adapts to the enemies actions most effectively will be the victor... survival of the fittest. Natural Selection.
While it is more demanding on both teams, it can lead to severe imbalance problems with the Onos coming to early or whatever it is that you guys are talking about in the beta forums. I don't read the beta forums, I don't beta test, I have no influence over what goes on in it, nor have i seen what you guys are talking about.
However, the idea that the strategies must be adaptable "on the fly" is very entertaining; how could we make it work (why don't you start a new thread discussing ways that this would be balanced, unbalanced, etc.)?
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I haven't actually played 1.1, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the one hive model be MORE demanding of both teams? It opens up so many more options strategically (for aliens anyway... ) and forces the opposing team to counter them effectively, rather than just choosing a path at the start of the game and sticking to it. The team that adapts to the enemies actions most effectively will be the victor... survival of the fittest. Natural Selection. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, @egis.. nothing wrong with a plan.. but I can see your point about adaptation when the plan fails.
As Frederick the Great said "L'audace, l'audace, toujour l'audace."
I read the beta information posts and Martigens post, and I agree: 2 hive lockdowns should go, if nothing else helps then balancing the ONOS could be a solution.
btw: *bump*
mfg
Lance
I'm afraid that certain lower level abilities are not going the way of the dinosaurs.
To make HA effective as marine you need HMG, with a GL and definitely welders.
To make Onos effective as alien, you pretty much just need an onos <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Fades require lerks to be successful, and skulks also find a use with lerks.
Lerks just make onos even more stupidly powerful!
Marines have to have a combined arms force and so do lower level aliens. But higher level aliens need to less and less.
It is like the mutalisk in starcraft (originally, OOTB). It was the most hopelessly imbalanced thing ever against protoss because it was extraordinarily difficult to counter (a zealot rush that killed your opponents base faster than the mutalisks could kill yours worked 1/10 times though). That is the problem with having hive evolutions available at 1 hive. When someone goes onos its GG, the marines are screwed. :/
I should clarify I'm against hive linking not because in and of itself it is a bad idea, but because as it stands it is just so limiting to gameplay. If a means could be found to allow the possibility of retaliation despite a 2 hive lockdown, then by all means it could be a great gameplay mechanic. The problem isn't with hive-linked evolutions as a concept, it's with the way it's implemented in current builds and (conceivably) the only way it can be implemented. The very nature of hive-linked evolutions just creates a single path of least resistence for the marines, which leads to repetitive gameplay and, should the marines be successful, a drawn out lose for the aliens regardless of the skill or resources of the alien players. It becomes not a game of wiping out the other side by any strategy and means, but simply a game of who can secure 2 hives the fastest.
In 1.1q so far this is harder to pull off, especially as hives can go up quick (but killed and locked down just as quick thanks to electricity), but it's still too gameplay-breakingly viable. Ultimately, I prefer the direction NS was going with 1.1p.
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I think that the hive restrictions are good for clan play.. but I suppose they are kinda bad for public play. I guess that we'll end up catering to public play on this issue.
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I disagree critical <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. You forget I'm in a clan too. I'm also a clanner, and I play a heck of a lot of NS normally -- and 'fresh blood' forumers are just as dedicated fans, else they wouldn't be here.
@egis put it nicely:
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I haven't actually played 1.1, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the one hive model be MORE demanding of both teams? It opens up so many more options strategically (for aliens anyway... ) and forces the opposing team to counter them effectively, rather than just choosing a path at the start of the game and sticking to it. The team that adapts to the enemies actions most effectively will be the victor... survival of the fittest. Natural Selection.
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All evolutions at hive 1 creates far more open ended gameplay possibilties and therefore, by definition, far greater room for the skills of clans to <b>really shine</b>. 1.1 won't be about which clan can pull off a JP rush or lockdown the fastest, it'll be about which clan has better strategies and skills, <i>full stop</i>, because the strategies and skills will be open to so many different possibilties. For more competitive clan play -- no hive restrictions is the way to go.
Can you imagine how cool it would be for spectators to HLTV a clan match where both sides are continually counter-strategising eachother? Where we see the comm managing res attacks as well as hive attacks? Where the battle spreads over the whole map, and ground is won and lost continually? Seeing how the games play out, figuring out what each team is trying to do and appreciating the skill involved. It would be awesome. But with hive limitations, the goal for each game for both sides is already known, and any form of res development for the marines is simply to set themselves up for a hive lockdown or two. They can lose ground elsewhere on the map and it doesn't matter, all they need to do is secure two hives and they've won, without the need to actually walk in and finish them off. Every game, always the same, simply because it's the most guaranteed path for a win, and clans play to win. Compare this with if all evolutions are available at hive 1 -- until the last enemy falls, the other team hasn't won yet, the game isn't over yet, because there's always a chance to fight back. They have to target the enemy itself and the supply line (nodes) and not just the hives, and that makes all the difference in the world to the gameplay -- and what sort of epic wins could that create?! Fought tooth and nail to the end, wether they win or lose, the HL movies of legend <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is what I signed up for, this is the type of gameplay that keeps me glued to my seat. This is how I imagine NS to be.
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IMO, he's using forum h4x. He used to be a silly flaming newb on the forums, and lately he's been popping in with all these insightful posts. Heh
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plz <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Check the forums from long ago nubcaek! I think I've only ever flamed once in all my posts, and I'm quite sure they thoroughly deserved it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> *hugz y00*
M
When Flayra released the "back to 1.04 hive model lads" did ANYONE actually say w00t? All I heard was a few pts and vets that said "well maybe it might work lets give it a test before we pound it". Almost everyone of the "common man" (read member) sadly shut their comps down and cried themselves to sleep.
Might I also point out that Martigen was the author of the "hive one onos" model.
I was gonna start a thread singing the glories of Martigen but ran into the maximum character limit.
His one flaw is that he hangs out with nubs like Drath <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Mart - if you live in Brisbane and I ever meet you in a pub - the beer will be free and flowing.
Keep up the good work
If I understand correctly from what I read on the beta forums, doesn't a similar problem come without hive evolution limits?
I remember reading quite often that marines would utterly dominate an alien side, confine them to their hive and when the onos showed up get their **** booted all over the map and lose.
Now, I don't know about you but I think that is completely stupid. In this case the marines have played better but got owned simply by the (relatively unstoppable) onos. Once the aliens get more Onos it is then a GG with NO chance of the marines coming back.
The opposite problem seems to occur with what you've described. When you link evolutions to hives the marines can out tech the aliens and leads to a boring game that is an inevitable loss for the aliens.
But what options do the marines really have? If the let the aliens get two hives is that a loss? Can marines fight back against fades in 1.1? (I imagine they can). But what if the aliens get a 3rd hive? Again, is that a GG aliens once the onos turn up?
From everything I've read I think you are right, limiting hive evolutions to number of hives is a bad idea. But until the marines can do something about onos (which is just a tank in the end, blah), having evolutions NOT limited by hives is equally a bad idea.
You either have marines lose all the time or aliens. IMO the problem is the onos :/
Im happy with what Flara is doing and how its coming along slowly but surely and keep up the great work dev team. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
On another note:
In 1.1 the thing i fear most is the res nodes being so important not the hives, so the only reason for marines to stop aliens getting a second hive is to stop them getting upgrades and gain 1!!! res node, when from what i heard in 1.1 as marines you need bout 4 or 5. Even if marines have to hives locked down and aliens gain one back there orginal hive may have the upgrades in it so no point guarding unless they want another res and once that hive is down just regain it straight away, and build a second hive tehre u got all tech upgrades so u win win aliens all the way.
Im sure this would of been thought of but correct me if im wrong.
p.s don't reconise the name Pteb cause im Doodles in IRC and NS
Knowing that aliens already win most of the pub games in 1.04 overall (according to something i read), how do you think its going to be when you have the whole alien team saving for onos the entire game? The sad part is, the aliens will probably win with this strategy. We all know how painfully difficult it is for pub marines to finish off the alien hive in 1.04. Imagine how difficult it will be for 1.1 pub marines to kill a self-umbra hive with skulks constantly spawning in with a cloud of umbra. Whoever chooses to save for onos WILL eventually become onos and most likely will destroy the marines. Its just a matter of time.There would be people stacking aliens everygame (similar to how you see people stacking marine in 1.04) so that they could go onos. It would be pure chaos.
Knowing that aliens already win most of the pub games in 1.04 overall (according to something i read), how do you think its going to be when you have the whole alien team saving for onos the entire game? The sad part is, the aliens will probably win with this strategy. We all know how painfully difficult it is for pub marines to finish off the alien hive in 1.04. Imagine how difficult it will be for 1.1 pub marines to kill a self-umbra hive with skulks constantly spawning in with a cloud of umbra. Whoever chooses to save for onos WILL eventually become onos and most likely will destroy the marines. Its just a matter of time.There would be people stacking aliens everygame (similar to how you see people stacking marine in 1.04) so that they could go onos. It would be pure chaos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, and IMO, the solution to this is to neuter the onos 'game ending' ability.
This means it becomes an OPTION for the aliens, not a game ender.
BTW I just wanted to note about the title of this thread -- not <i>all</i> the PTs and vets feel that way. This is just a few of the many PTs and vets we have playing, and frankly it's good discussion. The more feedback we can provide, the better a game Flayra and the devs can make.
Aegeri:
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In this case the marines have played better but got owned simply by the (relatively unstoppable) onos. Once the aliens get more Onos it is then a GG with NO chance of the marines coming back.
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Precisely -- the problem lies not in the ability for aliens to get Onos, but in the power of the Onos. Despite their strength, Onos still fall quite easily to concentrated marine fire, but weakening them is, I think, the easiest solution. Locking hives is still viable here as well, because hive 1 Onos just can't kick as much bottom.
It's worth noting that not only does all evolutions at hive 1 allow aliens to fight back, it makes the game more intense and fun for marines -- when you storm into that last hive, taking down an Onos as you win the game is far more fulfilling than picking off skulks and lerks who are totally helpless vs your HA and HMG/GLs.
Also it's important to remember the value of res. One of the key goals (I think) of 1.1 was to take the fight to the nodes as well as the hives. If you want to stop Onos appearing in numbers: <i><b>hit them where it hurts -- res nodes</b></i>. In games where marines have focused on res as well as hives, they've generally won -- and that was before the especially slow res flow we have now in 1.1p. I think slower res + slightly weakend Onos will equal problem solved for those builds where Onos were just a little too eager to take the limelight <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
SteamedHam:
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Knowing that aliens already win most of the pub games in 1.04 overall (according to something i read), how do you think its going to be when you have the whole alien team saving for onos the entire game? The sad part is, the aliens will probably win with this strategy. We all know how painfully difficult it is for pub marines to finish off the alien hive in 1.04. Imagine how difficult it will be for 1.1 pub marines to kill a self-umbra hive with skulks constantly spawning in with a cloud of umbra. Whoever chooses to save for onos WILL eventually become onos and most likely will destroy the marines. Its just a matter of time.There would be people stacking aliens everygame (similar to how you see people stacking marine in 1.04) so that they could go onos. It would be pure chaos.
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No they won't -- if you have seven players all saving for Onos, who's going to build hives and res and chmabers and OCs? And who's going to defend these with lerks and Fades? If all players save for onos -- aliens lose. If one or two save for Onos, isn't this a fair strategy? It'll take them ages and, when they do get it, depending on how many hives the marines have let them get, they'll still fall easily to a group of marines and there goes a massive res investment.
You must remember the timescale involved to go Onos. It's just not practical to 'save for Onos' all the time. Any player who wishes to do this won't be going Gorge, Lerk, or Fade during this time making it easier for the marines with one less higher evolution lifeform to deal with. This is why strategies and trade-offs of one advantage over another are so important in a game like NS, to give people options for gameplay. If a player wants to save, that's both a risk for the team because he won't be helping out the team as a Lerk or Fade and a possibly a burden in that he won't be using his res for building a fair whack of chambers. But the trade off might be worth if it he can take down a marine outpost or save a hive from being trashed. That, I think, is the essence of a risk, strategy, skill, choice and, most importantly, gameplay.
M