Definition Of Terms

Niteowl

<div class="IPBDescription">exploiting, scripting, binding</div> well, a nice follow up to my incredibly tepidly received "Comming Pubs" and the somewhat lukewarm post on "Acronyms and Abbreviations" is another one to help define some terms that ppl use often when debating cheating/haxing/whatever0ring.

debate, clarify if this is what the terms mean to you, but i hope it's pretty clear. when ppl discuss CHEATING these terms often come up. make sure you use them correctly <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->




EXPLOITING using game bugs to gain an advantage. this has nothing to do with skill, only the using of a game bug. it CAN use skill (bunny hopping (since it uses the no limit on airspeed bug in HL)without scripts) or can be totally braindead (flashlight build exploit or steam room siege building on ns_feedwater).
Is Exploiting Cheating? i think most ppl would say that it is, but it's very subjective (esp wrt bhopping).




SCRIPTING: using a series of binds to make your computer do a series of tasks automatically that you might find too tough to do yerself. this is usually something that takes some skill to do normally, and the person is scripting it so they won't have to learn how to do it, or, whatever. few ppl would argue that scripting takes skill.
i.e.
- using a script to jetpack (so it refuels at perfect intervals, and gives you longer flight)
- using a script to fire all your pistol bullets with one shot.

Notice how these are not EXPLOITS. There is no pistol fire cap on the pistol. it's not a bug that there is no cap in it. afterwards, flay has decided he doesn't want to shoot it above a certain level.

Is Scripting Cheating? you'll remember NS 1.0 , where quick switch of weapons caused players to suicide? that was to eliminate SCRIPTING. so the NS team prolly considers it cheating. it's very server dependant.




BINDING: when you rebind a key to do ONE action.
i.e.
using Rabid Llama's commander bindset to reconfigure the numberpad to the command build (that's right Llama! i'm pimping yer bindset, boo ya!)
also, say, binding q to +voice_record instead of ALT.

Is Binding Cheating? i think most ppl would say no. altho i might be wrong.



discuss <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

Mr_Radical_Ed

I've mentioned this a looooooong time ago.

..but when you use a "script" to do something outside the range of normal gameplay. It is then known as an exploit, and this can be anything. Not only a script. When you use a command in a way to do something else. For example.. turning in to a marine while being a skulk (a bug that has been FIXED I might add).

Maus

... and pistol scripts <i>are</i> exploits, since you're exploiting the lack of a RoF cap to fire faster than should be possible.

Niteowl

<!--QuoteBegin--Mr Radical Ed+Jun 24 2003, 01:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr Radical Ed @ Jun 24 2003, 01:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've mentioned this a looooooong time ago.

..but when you use a "script" to do something outside the range of normal gameplay. It is then known as an exploit, and this can be anything. Not only a script. When you use a command in a way to do something else. For example.. turning in to a marine while being a skulk (a bug that has been FIXED I might add). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think you're blurring the lines unecessarily. these are discrete terms that can be used in combination.

using the stopcommandermode bug is an EXPLOIT, plain and simple. you can BIND a key to do it. that doesn't change the unfairness of it though. you can just type it in. it's not an EXPLOIT because of the BIND.

i'm actually kinda confused with your reply. don't take that as an affront, i get fuzzied by lots of things, like.. erhm... poutines and fries, and european girls armpits. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

it just seems you are blurring the definitions, while my post was an effort to clean up the terms. but plse correct me where i'm missing the point <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

Niteowl

<!--QuoteBegin--Maus+Jun 24 2003, 01:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maus @ Jun 24 2003, 01:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... and pistol scripts <i>are</i> exploits, since you're exploiting the lack of a RoF cap to fire faster than should be possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i guess it's all semantics. i think a lot of ppl consider it cheating. but exploiting.. hrm. well, if Flay INTENDED for pistols to have a limited RoF (which, apparently, is not realistic, the record for fastest RoF is by a handgun) and just didn't think ppl would script it, then i guess it IS an exploit.

but if flay didn't really care, then afterwards, considered it bad, then .. well, i guess i could just go around in circles. PERSONALLY, i don't like it.

an exploit is using a bug basically. i'm not sure that not putting in a RoF cap on the pistol is a bug or not.

HAMBone

Not to say that there's no such thing as a pistol script, but the super fast pistol shooting can be as simple as just binding shoot to mwheelup - thats how most people got away with it in CAL(scripts are illegal in cal, binding is not). Scripts are cheating, binding is not, exploits are completely up to the community. For instance, biting through thin textures is considered by most to be cheating(per CAL rules). But bunnyhopping is not. Silent bunnyhopping is considered cheating according to CAL rules, but probably not by most clan players. So exploits really vary. I think sometimes things that are just way imbalanced but are part of the game can even be considered exploits. There was one version in the War3 beta where land mines could just completely destroy your town hall within 2 minutes of the game start, so alot of players just wouldn't use them when they got them.

MMZ_Torak

Having a bind for a grenade/rocket jump imo is an exploit. When a script replaces a skill (in this case rocket jumping) it becomes exploitive. I think this is what Mr Radical Ed means.

Niteowl

<!--QuoteBegin--HAMBONE+Jun 24 2003, 01:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HAMBONE @ Jun 24 2003, 01:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not to say that there's no such thing as a pistol script, but the super fast pistol shooting can be as simple as just binding shoot to mwheelup - thats how most people got away with it in CAL(scripts are illegal in cal, binding is not). Scripts are cheating, binding is not, exploits are completely up to the community. For instance, biting through thin textures is considered by most to be cheating(per CAL rules). But bunnyhopping is not. Silent bunnyhopping is considered cheating according to CAL rules, but probably not by most clan players. So exploits really vary. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh man.. there is a DIZZYING array of stuff there.interesting how scripts are pretty strict (always considered cheating), but exploits vary. i always thought it the other way around <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

well, learn a new thing everyday.

Mr_Radical_Ed

I'm not blurring any lines. Its the truth. If you were meant to walk a certin speed, but with a combination of commands executed right causes you to walk faster than which you were intended it would be considered an exploit. Being that the ability to walk faster than everyone else with next to no effort is the exploit. Now I'm talking in general, and can be compared to a bunny hop assist script... My comment can be applied to anything that is possible.

Niteowl

<!--QuoteBegin--MMZ>Torak+Jun 24 2003, 01:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Jun 24 2003, 01:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Having a bind for a grenade/rocket jump imo is an exploit. When a script replaces a skill (in this case rocket jumping) it becomes exploitive. I think this is what Mr Radical Ed means. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ah ic ic. but i think we shouldn't mix up terms.

rocket/grenade jump looks like several binds together, so it's a SCRIPT.

it's not exploitng a bug tho.

i think it's better to use CHEATING instead of exploitive. i know, it's just semantics, but it keeps the terms clean.

rewriting yer post in Niteowlese:
Having a SCRIPT for a grenade/rocket jump imo is CHEATING.


btw, when is having a script NOT replacing a skill?

Mr_Radical_Ed

Neither you nor I can make definitive explainations for these terms so there will always be a diffence in what we believe, but I've always said this... taking advantage of a know bug/unusual feature/occurance is exploiting it.. wether you can pull it off with or without scripts.. these things <b>are not</b> set in stone

<span style='color:red'>_forget it I give up_</span>

MMZ_Torak

<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->alias "fade" "impulse 116; exec fade.cfg"
bind <key> fade<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->

fade.cfg binds the various fade weapons. Now I press a key, evolve to fade and have my mouse buttons bound to the various weapons. I don't think anyone could call that a cheat.

Niteowl

<!--QuoteBegin--Mr Radical Ed+Jun 24 2003, 01:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr Radical Ed @ Jun 24 2003, 01:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not blurring any lines. Its the truth. If you were meant to walk a certin speed, but with a combination of commands executed right causes you to walk faster than which you were intended it would be considered an exploit. Being that the ability to walk faster than everyone else with next to no effort is the exploit. Now I'm talking in general, and can be compared to a bunny hop assist script... My comment can be applied to anything that is possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok, forgive my obtuseness. just trying to get it right <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

this walking faster bug would be considered an exploit, right. i'm not sure what you are communicating.

in your previous post, it's not the script that is considered an exploit, it's the bug using for advantageous purposes right? that's what i was saying. your definition of an exploit is when you use a script to do it. which i disagree with.

now, it's prolly half a dozen of one, six of the other. but i like clear delineation.

<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
when you use a "script" to do something outside the range of normal gameplay. It is then known as an exploit, and this can be anything. Not only a script. When you use a command in a way to do something else.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

soo, it's basically this definition that i find blurry to my foggy foggy mind <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

So, to rephrase, when the script is used outside the range of gameplay, THEN it's an exploit. then you say that not only a script? that's what gets me confused.

Niteowl

<!--QuoteBegin--MMZ>Torak+Jun 24 2003, 01:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Jun 24 2003, 01:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->alias "fade" "impulse 116; exec fade.cfg"
bind <key> fade<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->

fade.cfg binds the various fade weapons. Now I press a key, evolve to fade and have my mouse buttons bound to the various weapons. I don't think anyone could call that a cheat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ah, excellent, thanx ! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> nice example.

Mr_Radical_Ed

When I say it doesn't have to be a script.. I meant that as anything that goes under exploting and cheating.

Example: You know of an old command not disabled that might do something that give you an unfair advantage.

I'm not playing define the defininition anymore.. so you can take it anyway you want <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->

Niteowl

<!--QuoteBegin--Mr Radical Ed+Jun 24 2003, 01:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr Radical Ed @ Jun 24 2003, 01:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Neither you nor I can make definitive explainations for these terms so there will always be a diffence in what we believe, but I've always said this... taking advantage of a know bug/unusual feature/occurance is exploiting it.. wether you can pull it off with or without scripts.. these things <b>are not</b> set in stone

<span style='color:red'>_forget it I give up_</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh, i'm not trying to argue with you, just clarify terms is all.

i never said that exploiting is only exploiting if using scripts. i said the exact opposite.

exploiting is exploiting (niiice tautology!!). you CAN use scripts to exploit, but that's not what makes it an exploit.

i think we totally agree on the terms. i just got confused, sorry about that <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->