AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But freedom of speech is the right to speak against the state without fear of retaliation, aka. you can say George Bush is an awful president, thats your right.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and that shows that america has no freedom of speak, you can be kicked from school if you say that.. yea, even a t-shirt with the word PEACE can put you in jail (thats true.. horrible)
<!--QuoteBegin--Sirus+Jun 25 2003, 04:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Jun 25 2003, 04:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Blegh, we're going off topic...but, there is defined rules on the internet. Warez for instance is illegal. Hacking into system databases, is illegal. Once again, you're free to do anything within the law. Chat on MSN, IRC, play Half-life. Make websites about anything, within the law. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, well, that's true. In certain countries. I'm sure I could go to afgahnistan, and start a wares server, and not have to worry. But that's a countries rules, not nessicarily, the Internet's rules. I guess I would have been better served to say there's not Bill of Rights online. Oh well, I think you can understand what I mean.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Jun 25 2003, 04:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Jun 25 2003, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The question is not whether the forum admins can do whatever they want. We all know they can, why repeat it again and again.
The question is whether complete anarchy would lead to better results, i.e. more valuable debates.
It's an academic question. These forums will not change, as they were created for a specific purpose which can only be fulfilled if they are censored. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Very true. And as an academic question, I think it's an interesting one. I guess that's what this post really should be about, huh?
<!--QuoteBegin--Jobabob+Jun 25 2003, 04:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jobabob @ Jun 25 2003, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Asraniel+Jun 25 2003, 09:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Asraniel @ Jun 25 2003, 09:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> even a t-shirt with the word PEACE can put you in jail (thats true.. horrible) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> only if you spell 'peace'
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>I AM THE DEVIL INCARNATE AND I FULLY SUPPORT THE ACTIONS OF OSAMA BIN LADEN IN KILLING ALL THOSE HORRIBLE AMERICANS WHO I DONT LIKE EVEN THO I AM ONE</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ROTFLMAO. Too true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but, there is defined rules on the internet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd disagree. Technically there might be laws, but they have proven to be all but unenforcable on a global scale. The Internet as a whole is still the epitome of anarchy, although the powers who want to censor and control it are becoming stronger. The fights are intensifying, a winner is not yet in sight.
Nice to see you all flinging your favorite buzzwords around.
'Freedom of Speech' is an universally defined term that's part of the foundation of every democratic consitution, from the USA to France to Australia. In <i>all</i> cases, it describes a defensive, in <i>no</i> case an offensive right. You can <i>not</i> enforce Freedom of Speech against other persons. If you've got a different definition of the word - fine, but don't assume that your definition has any kind of legal significance.
'Anarchy' is no simple absence of administrative power, it describes a situation in which every member of a community actively resents outward power both possessed by her - or himself and others, and at the same time imposes on him - or herself to act responsibly towards every member of their community. This is why 'anarchoid' systems work well within small communities (like Usenet groups). If you want to try such a system on a forum with 17332 registered members, I wish you the best of luck. Just warn me so I can stay far enough away not to be hurt by the explosion.
Back from the academics - apart from the locking of the Discussion forum, about which I already stated you'd get more informations once the busy time of the release has gone by, I have read many general accusations and little specific examples. This might surprise you, but we are well aware we're only human. If you feel a lock / suspension / ban / move / whatever was uncalled for, contact the person responsible. Give us feedback, if possible constructive. It's damn easy to see two locked topics on the frontpage and decide that this board is run like a totalitarian police state. Unless you're going to show me why those locks weren't justified, I will however point you to the main difference: In a totalitarian state, you're not allowed to leave if you're not content.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lol there is a permanent moderator presence in this topic, Nemesis has been in here since it started <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely. OK, I had logged off for two hours to read the first five chapters of the Prisoner of Akzaban in between, but what the hell...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You all state privacy... yet im wondering, what is your privacy? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In this case by 'private' we mean 'not government run/funded', e.g. public schools are funded by the government whereas private schools are funded by a third party.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is a private server aloud to post secret govenment files on the internet?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The server won't have secret government files. If someone with access to the server has secret government files, they had to have been a spy (illegal) or had signed a contract relinquishing their right to distribute such information. If you do it's illegal. I do classified work for the government and that's pretty standard stuff.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can a private business turn down people because of their race, ideals, religion? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, hence the phrase you see in businesses that say, 'We refuse the right to provide service to anyone.' Technically they don't say why they don't have to provide service to you, they could just not like the way you look. The trade off is that they don't get your business.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm semi-anarchist myself but I do very well and school so does that mean if I put on religion Anarchist they can turn me down to a private school even though my record is perfect?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, anarchy is not a religion. Second of all, yes private schools can turn you down based on your religion. Some catholic schools will turn you down if you are very emphatic about not believing in God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the one topic I saw NS vs. CS which one do you like better, I didn't see much things broken there. I thought it was getting pretty good and some people wanted to debate that topic. Most were NS but oh well we could have had a little fun....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure the mod had a reason to lock it. If you want to know, PM him, don't just start a new thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->they turn down our fun just cause a select few wanted it closed.. As far as i saw no more then 20 percent probably wanted it locked....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The forums aren't here for you to have 'fun' at others expense, it's for communication. And it only takes one mod who wants it locked for it to be locked. That's why they're a mod, because they're trusted that their judgement is fair
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and as one more thing, the guy that said I should use paragraphs and spacing I saw ::bleep:: it.. don't have time for that, not to mention I wrote it during school class.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't have to write in paragraphs. That's your choice. However, we don't have to read your post. That's our choice. If you don't write in a legible fashion don't expect us to care what you're saying.
In summary, I believe the mods are doing a good job. I've addressed all your arguments, but you still have one course of action, if you still believe that they are being abusive. You can cast your vote. How? By leaving the forums. If enough people leave the forums, then there will be no forums, and the mods will have nothing to mod. Until then, it seems that enough people believe that they are doing a fair job, but if you'd like, it is your right to leave.
I think the admins and mods are doing a great job. It's not an easy task they're undertaking, to control a community of thousands of people. In every locked topic I see, I also see a clear reason to locking it. Sure, they have made mistakes, but even gods make mistakes. They are all reasonable, they don't ban without a good reason. And as said, it isn't an easy task. Try yourself to build up a community with thousands of people, and keep it under control. You will see that it's not easy at all. So try to give the mods and admins a little more well-earned respect, OK?
There is a very simple way to get around all the problems some folks here seem to be having. It takes only a few easy steps:
1) Create your own game 2) Purchase web servers and bandwidth 3) Set up forums 4) Let people chat about your game on your forums and your servers all they want, without any control.
Comments
and that shows that america has no freedom of speak, you can be kicked from school if you say that.. yea, even a t-shirt with the word PEACE can put you in jail (thats true.. horrible)
Oh, well, that's true. In certain countries. I'm sure I could go to afgahnistan, and start a wares server, and not have to worry. But that's a countries rules, not nessicarily, the Internet's rules. I guess I would have been better served to say there's not Bill of Rights online. Oh well, I think you can understand what I mean.
The question is whether complete anarchy would lead to better results, i.e. more valuable debates.
It's an academic question. These forums will not change, as they were created for a specific purpose which can only be fulfilled if they are censored.
The question is whether complete anarchy would lead to better results, i.e. more valuable debates.
It's an academic question. These forums will not change, as they were created for a specific purpose which can only be fulfilled if they are censored. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very true. And as an academic question, I think it's an interesting one. I guess that's what this post really should be about, huh?
only if you spell 'peace'
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>I AM THE DEVIL INCARNATE AND I FULLY SUPPORT THE ACTIONS OF OSAMA BIN LADEN IN KILLING ALL THOSE HORRIBLE AMERICANS WHO I DONT LIKE EVEN THO I AM ONE</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ROTFLMAO. Too true.
I'd disagree. Technically there might be laws, but they have proven to be all but unenforcable on a global scale. The Internet as a whole is still the epitome of anarchy, although the powers who want to censor and control it are becoming stronger. The fights are intensifying, a winner is not yet in sight.
'Freedom of Speech' is an universally defined term that's part of the foundation of every democratic consitution, from the USA to France to Australia. In <i>all</i> cases, it describes a defensive, in <i>no</i> case an offensive right. You can <i>not</i> enforce Freedom of Speech against other persons. If you've got a different definition of the word - fine, but don't assume that your definition has any kind of legal significance.
'Anarchy' is no simple absence of administrative power, it describes a situation in which every member of a community actively resents outward power both possessed by her - or himself and others, and at the same time imposes on him - or herself to act responsibly towards every member of their community.
This is why 'anarchoid' systems work well within small communities (like Usenet groups). If you want to try such a system on a forum with 17332 registered members, I wish you the best of luck. Just warn me so I can stay far enough away not to be hurt by the explosion.
Back from the academics - apart from the locking of the Discussion forum, about which I already stated you'd get more informations once the busy time of the release has gone by, I have read many general accusations and little specific examples.
This might surprise you, but we are well aware we're only human. If you feel a lock / suspension / ban / move / whatever was uncalled for, contact the person responsible. Give us feedback, if possible constructive.
It's damn easy to see two locked topics on the frontpage and decide that this board is run like a totalitarian police state. Unless you're going to show me why those locks weren't justified, I will however point you to the main difference: In a totalitarian state, you're not allowed to leave if you're not content.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lol there is a permanent moderator presence in this topic, Nemesis has been in here since it started <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely. OK, I had logged off for two hours to read the first five chapters of the Prisoner of Akzaban in between, but what the hell...
In this case by 'private' we mean 'not government run/funded', e.g. public schools are funded by the government whereas private schools are funded by a third party.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is a private server aloud to post secret govenment files on the internet?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The server won't have secret government files. If someone with access to the server has secret government files, they had to have been a spy (illegal) or had signed a contract relinquishing their right to distribute such information. If you do it's illegal. I do classified work for the government and that's pretty standard stuff.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can a private business turn down people because of their race, ideals, religion? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, hence the phrase you see in businesses that say, 'We refuse the right to provide service to anyone.' Technically they don't say why they don't have to provide service to you, they could just not like the way you look. The trade off is that they don't get your business.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm semi-anarchist myself but I do very well and school so does that mean if I put on religion Anarchist they can turn me down to a private school even though my record is perfect?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, anarchy is not a religion. Second of all, yes private schools can turn you down based on your religion. Some catholic schools will turn you down if you are very emphatic about not believing in God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the one topic I saw NS vs. CS which one do you like better, I didn't see much things broken there. I thought it was getting pretty good and some people wanted to debate that topic. Most were NS but oh well we could have had a little fun....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure the mod had a reason to lock it. If you want to know, PM him, don't just start a new thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->they turn down our fun just cause a select few wanted it closed.. As far as i saw no more then 20 percent probably wanted it locked....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The forums aren't here for you to have 'fun' at others expense, it's for communication. And it only takes one mod who wants it locked for it to be locked. That's why they're a mod, because they're trusted that their judgement is fair
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and as one more thing, the guy that said I should use paragraphs and spacing I saw ::bleep:: it.. don't have time for that, not to mention I wrote it during school class.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't have to write in paragraphs. That's your choice. However, we don't have to read your post. That's our choice. If you don't write in a legible fashion don't expect us to care what you're saying.
In summary, I believe the mods are doing a good job. I've addressed all your arguments, but you still have one course of action, if you still believe that they are being abusive. You can cast your vote. How? By leaving the forums. If enough people leave the forums, then there will be no forums, and the mods will have nothing to mod. Until then, it seems that enough people believe that they are doing a fair job, but if you'd like, it is your right to leave.
Goodbye, police
Rhuadin
It's not an easy task they're undertaking, to control a community of thousands of people.
In every locked topic I see, I also see a clear reason to locking it.
Sure, they have made mistakes, but even gods make mistakes.
They are all reasonable, they don't ban without a good reason.
And as said, it isn't an easy task.
Try yourself to build up a community with thousands of people, and keep it under control.
You will see that it's not easy at all.
So try to give the mods and admins a little more well-earned respect, OK?
1) Create your own game
2) Purchase web servers and bandwidth
3) Set up forums
4) Let people chat about your game on your forums and your servers all they want, without any control.
Voila!
Locked, mothertrucker.