I think the push-back should be <b>completely removed</b>.
As far as I'm concerned marines has a significant range advantage over skulks. Marines <b>can</b> inflict damage on skulks at range whereas skulks <b>cannot</b>. In every scenario other then an ambush a marine has the first strike. If a skulk overcomes the first strike <i>and</i> the range advantage as they close to within bite distance why then should the marine get any more chances to kill the skulk?
Attacking in numbers and ambushes are tactics the skulks can use to overcome the marine range advantage. To say that these tactics legitimize the push-back effect is blantantly marine-biased.
A marine who gets caught in an ambushed or a marine who dies from being chomped twice from behind should not blame their deaths on some sort of close-range game inbalance, they should consider how they allowed the skulk to get so close.
I thought NS was a teamplay game, why should gameplay mechanics such as push-back be employed to "balance" close combat when <b>TEAMPLAY</b> and <b>SQUAD TACTICS</b> should instead be developed as counters.
My opinion anyways...
JusticeBlade Quote: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I say give the marines higher armour and gun damage plus more knock back. Make Marines have just as much staying power as aliens. 1 good alien = 5 dead good marines, I want it so its 1 good marine = 5 dead good aliens as well.
Aliens are just to powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Where do you play? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Pulse+Jun 30 2003, 07:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pulse @ Jun 30 2003, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Skulks should have a huge advantage in close range, but it shouldn't be impossible for a marine to fight back, <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not? Skulks can't fight back at long range.
<!--QuoteBegin--xRavenx+Jun 30 2003, 04:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xRavenx @ Jun 30 2003, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SDJASON+Jun 30 2003, 09:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJASON @ Jun 30 2003, 09:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Taking the push out would be HORRIBLE for marines.. i mean making them work in TEAMS, covering each others backs from the skulks... OMG.. WHAT WERE WE THINKING... MARINES sometimes WORK IN TEAMS!!!!! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OMG i totally agre with ya.....the horror....teamWORK ! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> ohhh and that would make rambo skulk better than rambo marine......Marines have range. They should be mincemeat if they lose that (quite massive) advantage <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, that was my thought on all this. It's hard enough as is to get a skulk close enough to bit a marine without having him go FLYING across the room before he dies. In another thread they are trying to promote marine teamwork. Tweaking this will go a long way in encouraging marines to stick together. Rambos have less power this way.
Besides, if you want to talk realism- that dog sized skulk can't throw a marine across the room. And if he can, he certainly isnt' going to accomplish this by inserting teeth into the marines leg/torso/head.
My final vote: reduce push to a couple in-game feet, as has already been suggested.
<!--QuoteBegin--Pulse+Jun 30 2003, 07:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pulse @ Jun 30 2003, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Skulks should have a huge advantage in close range, but it shouldn't be impossible for a marine to fight back, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not? Skulks can't fight back at long range.
Heh, my hero <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--XCan+Jun 30 2003, 08:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XCan @ Jun 30 2003, 08:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The push effect on a standing marine is ok, however the push effect on an airborne marine is insane. I mean with that jump they could probably get a gold medal at the olympics... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> thats my only gripe with the push effect, but as marine it does come in handy
From reading the thread,I'll thyink it'll just need a bit of tweaking,because the 10 feet push problem is annoying.
And I thought marines were supposed to go in groups,they should have a penalty or something for ramboing.
But the push effect does scare a bit of hell outta a lone marine when he is ambushed by a skulk....
Final answer from me : Tweak it so they cant fly 10 feet away due to push effect,orskulks are definitely screwed.
BTW,I think push effect would do wonders on the GL....<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Pege+Jun 30 2003, 04:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pege @ Jun 30 2003, 04:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--elchinesetourist+Jun 30 2003, 04:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (elchinesetourist @ Jun 30 2003, 04:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ** you've seen them. Particularly with bhopping, people make up all these stupid rules about reality that aren't true. Not that the marines have special abilities or whatever, but for instance statements like bhopping is unreal - you can bhop in real life, and you can bhop a lot if you are in shape. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah. Try "bhopping" in real life while firing a gun... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey now, if you are bhopping IRL while firing, WTH are you doing anyway
besides this is the future we can imagine that the guns are recoilless, as INDEED THEY ARE
but consider the situation you imagined. I think you mean that the skulk is nearby, and you are behopping, and firing your gun. Since the guns are recoilless and the skulk is up close, who cares, you will still hit him, and you can still bhop.
If the guns have recoil then this will be slightly more difficult <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> but you will still hit him.
(maybe you will still die, but that isn't the point)
You CAN bhop and shoot, since these guns are recoilless anyway.
And IF you want to talk about IRL present, well WTH are you bhopping with a gun anyway. You'd be pretty fuxxed up, but WTH are you doing. If you are fighting a skulk then you might as well do what you have to do, cuz it's better to be fuxxed up than to be dead, probably.
I've been lurking (lerking? <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo-->) around the forums since about August, and yet I've sometimes managed to keep myself out of the fray of the most passionate arguments (ie bhop, jetpacks, lerk bite). But reading this thread, I had to register.
First, throw out realism. So many of the replies in this thread are about how "realistic" push or jumping while firing a gun is. If you want realism, go outside. Go play a "tactical shooter." This is a video game, and in good video games, it's gameplay that counts.
Skulks are supposed to lose at ranged combat. I don't really think this is in dispute. It's why they are melee-based, and why they can easily die in half a LMG clip, the initial marine equip. It's part of why the welder got a substancial nerf. Likewise, they're supposed to win in melee. This is why it only takes two bites (before upgrades) to down a marine. Obviously, knockback impedes melee combat because the marine can suddenly find himself back at medium range again.
It really sucks at hive 1, but not that badly. If you ambushed the marine, like you were <i>supposed</i> to, then the marine wasn't jumping when you bit them, and they didn't get pushed any significant distance. And it doesn't really matter how far their corpse flies on bite two. My guess is that many of the people complaining are your stereotypical MS-rush cara rambo skulks, because if they weren't, why would the marine be jumping at the first bite? It's either that they didn't lay out an ambush, or they blew their first bite, and either way, it's their own fault.
But what nobody is really talking about is what happens to skulks at hive 2- leap. With leap, skulks don't need to ambush marines anymore. They just need to be within about 50 feet, and at the push of a button, they are right next to their target. Stealth is out the window as long as they can leap effectively, and that doesn't take a lot of skill.
Less skill than aiming a LMG at a lightning fast, airborne target, to be sure.
Bhop and knockback were what make hive-2 skulks survivable, and one of those is gone. Taking out knockback would be crippling to the team that is already suffering the most in the mid to late 1.1 games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My guess is that many of the people complaining are your stereotypical MS-rush cara rambo skulks, because if they weren't, why would the marine be jumping at the first bite?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe that marine was bhoping to move fast, had wh(=motion tracking), heared you when you were going to your ambush spot, saw you going there or just was jumping in potential ambush spot since jumping gives great advantage especially in 1.0x (hitbox bugs and flying to the other end of the room.)
<!--QuoteBegin--kalikka+Jul 1 2003, 01:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kalikka @ Jul 1 2003, 01:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe that marine was bhoping to move fast, had wh(=motion tracking), heared you when you were going to your ambush spot, saw you going there or just was jumping in potential ambush spot since jumping gives great advantage especially in 1.0x (hitbox bugs and flying to the other end of the room.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ...It's a good thing we're talking about 1.1 here, where bhopping isn't a means to get around, and jumping doesn't give a "great advantage" when you're not in combat. The other points (being heard, seen) were simple failure of alien skill; the ambush was conceived too late, and that's the skulk's fault.
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Jun 30 2003, 07:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Jun 30 2003, 07:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why not? Skulks can't fight back at long range. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think it would be wrong to say that about 90% of fighting is close range. I mean, you gotta be a pretty f*ing dumb skulk if you want to run at marines straight from long range! With leap gapping the distance is a no-brainer and speed is the skulks advantage to get close if you just have to attack marines straightforward. Getting close should by NO MEANS equal a kill. That would be utterly devastating for marines. As far as teamwork goes: what kind of fun would it be if you knew your team had to go trough a doorway and there were couple of skulks waiting? The first one to enter would always die, so who would be stupid enough to go first? Nice stalemate you got there... Ambush strategy or more describingly "hiding behind a corner when a marine knows you are there" isn't supposed to guarantee you a kill. Marines need ways to survive close range and if an unrealistic push is what it takes instead of unrealistic bhopping, then it's OK.
I can understand it can be frustrating to lose to a rambo marine close range, but it would be 10000x more frustrating to play a marine and walk into a perfectly clear ambush knowing you will die 100% sure...
The push should remain, it should just be toned WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY down so that when you bite someone, they move like a couple of feet, not 10 feet, so that if you don't keep running into them they won't get hit by the second bite.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as teamwork goes: what kind of fun would it be if you knew your team had to go trough a doorway and there were couple of skulks waiting? The first one to enter would always die, so who would be stupid enough to go first?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This already happens to skulks that group up to attack a marine position so what's your point?
-and-
I don't think a total removal of the knockback is necessary or wise; however, something needs to be done about the amount of knockback a jumping marine gets when bitten.
<!--QuoteBegin--DrunkenSailor+Jul 1 2003, 05:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DrunkenSailor @ Jul 1 2003, 05:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It really sucks at hive 1, but not that badly. If you ambushed the marine, like you were <i>supposed</i> to, then the marine wasn't jumping when you bit them, and they didn't get pushed any significant distance. And it doesn't really matter how far their corpse flies on bite two. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In case you hadn't noticed, skulks are loud as hell. Suddenly hear the tappity tap of little skulk feet behind you? Jump a few times and turn around. Instant skulk defense. Passing through a doorway into a potentially infested room? Why walk through when you can jump through and get instant skulk defense. And 1.1 doesn't really prevent the effectiveness of a few short jumps like these.
<!--QuoteBegin--MMZ>Torak+Jul 1 2003, 09:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Jul 1 2003, 09:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as teamwork goes: what kind of fun would it be if you knew your team had to go trough a doorway and there were couple of skulks waiting? The first one to enter would always die, so who would be stupid enough to go first?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This already happens to skulks that group up to attack a marine position so what's your point? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Huh? You mean the first skulk in a group will die no matter what when attacking marines? He can bhop and wallclimb and these "skills" don't depend on the marines. People are suggesting marines would be at the skulks mercy close range when in fact most of the combat is close range and with hive 2 there is no long range fighting against skulks (thanks to leap). I don't mind going first to attack marines as a skulk, because I know I can evade well and I survive quite often... I don't mind going first as a marine to a skulk ambush either for the same reason.
Please explain your question, because I obviously didn't get your point if there was one...
More often than not, the first skulk through a door or into a room dies without landing a bite. My point (yes there was one :/) is that the circumstance put forward (that if the bite push was removed, the first marine through a door or entering a room would often die) already exists on the alien side and it surely isn't the be all and end all of the alien game. In fact when I play it is expected that the first alien is pretty much fodder and a distraction.
In any event, we are talking about the push effect, not |337 dodging skilz.
<!--QuoteBegin--TickTock+Jul 1 2003, 10:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TickTock @ Jul 1 2003, 10:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--DrunkenSailor+Jul 1 2003, 05:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DrunkenSailor @ Jul 1 2003, 05:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It really sucks at hive 1, but not that badly. If you ambushed the marine, like you were <i>supposed</i> to, then the marine wasn't jumping when you bit them, and they didn't get pushed any significant distance. And it doesn't really matter how far their corpse flies on bite two. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In case you hadn't noticed, skulks are loud as hell. Suddenly hear the tappity tap of little skulk feet behind you? Jump a few times and turn around. Instant skulk defense. Passing through a doorway into a potentially infested room? Why walk through when you can jump through and get instant skulk defense. And 1.1 doesn't really prevent the effectiveness of a few short jumps like these.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Through the use of parasite or the new Scent of Fear, ambushes can be pretty tightly executed so that chase distance on the skulk's prey should be minimal. With movement, Silence is obviously an option, but Celerity with the new increased skulk movement speed sounds like it would close the gap without leaving a lot of response time as well. So there's solutions for 2 of the 3 chambers, plus one using the skulk initial equip.
And, of course, Flayra has mentioned that footstep sfx have undergone changes. I would assume that these changes make the skulks a tad quieter, but I don't know for absolute certain. Any testers care to comment?
I am not 100% sure if this was already said in this post, but unless Flay can't control what he is coding everything is as he intendeds it to be. We should be so lucky that he is working so hard to find balance between the two teams. He's trying to figure out what is balanced so he can code it in.
PS: And there is no way any one can say that aliens have any advantages over rines. In 1.04(5), as a team they [the marines] are superior (faster respawn times), and as individuals are stronger then the aliens (I can't remeber the last time I was killed by a fade in a 1 on 1 fight), making them vastly superior even when both teams are using team work.
You must be playing some pretty lame fades mate <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Young Trotsky+Jul 1 2003, 05:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Young Trotsky @ Jul 1 2003, 05:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You must be playing some pretty lame fades mate <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No kidding. I agree with everything else he said, but that fade stuff was pure exaggeration.
I don't like the idea of push effect either but I think it would fit if Skulks wall walking would be only made easier. Then Skulk wouldn't be so good in close combat but he would have bigger chance at getting closer thus balancing it out.
Comments
As far as I'm concerned marines has a significant range advantage over skulks. Marines <b>can</b> inflict damage on skulks at range whereas skulks <b>cannot</b>. In every scenario other then an ambush a marine has the first strike. If a skulk overcomes the first strike <i>and</i> the range advantage as they close to within bite distance why then should the marine get any more chances to kill the skulk?
Attacking in numbers and ambushes are tactics the skulks can use to overcome the marine range advantage. To say that these tactics legitimize the push-back effect is blantantly marine-biased.
A marine who gets caught in an ambushed or a marine who dies from being chomped twice from behind should not blame their deaths on some sort of close-range game inbalance, they should consider how they allowed the skulk to get so close.
I thought NS was a teamplay game, why should gameplay mechanics such as push-back be employed to "balance" close combat when <b>TEAMPLAY</b> and <b>SQUAD TACTICS</b> should instead be developed as counters.
My opinion anyways...
JusticeBlade Quote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I say give the marines higher armour and gun damage plus more knock back. Make Marines have just as much staying power as aliens. 1 good alien = 5 dead good marines, I want it so its 1 good marine = 5 dead good aliens as well.
Aliens are just to powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Where do you play? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Why not? Skulks can't fight back at long range.
OMG i totally agre with ya.....the horror....teamWORK ! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
ohhh and that would make rambo skulk better than rambo marine......Marines have range. They should be mincemeat if they lose that (quite massive) advantage <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, that was my thought on all this. It's hard enough as is to get a skulk close enough to bit a marine without having him go FLYING across the room before he dies. In another thread they are trying to promote marine teamwork. Tweaking this will go a long way in encouraging marines to stick together. Rambos have less power this way.
Besides, if you want to talk realism- that dog sized skulk can't throw a marine across the room. And if he can, he certainly isnt' going to accomplish this by inserting teeth into the marines leg/torso/head.
My final vote: reduce push to a couple in-game feet, as has already been suggested.
<!--QuoteBegin--Pulse+Jun 30 2003, 07:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pulse @ Jun 30 2003, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Skulks should have a huge advantage in close range, but it shouldn't be impossible for a marine to fight back, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? Skulks can't fight back at long range.
Heh, my hero <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
thats my only gripe with the push effect, but as marine it does come in handy
And I thought marines were supposed to go in groups,they should have a penalty or something for ramboing.
But the push effect does scare a bit of hell outta a lone marine when he is ambushed by a skulk....
Final answer from me : Tweak it so they cant fly 10 feet away due to push effect,orskulks are definitely screwed.
BTW,I think push effect would do wonders on the GL....<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yeah. Try "bhopping" in real life while firing a gun... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey now, if you are bhopping IRL while firing, WTH are you doing anyway
besides this is the future we can imagine that the guns are recoilless, as INDEED THEY ARE
but consider the situation you imagined. I think you mean that the skulk is nearby, and you are behopping, and firing your gun. Since the guns are recoilless and the skulk is up close, who cares, you will still hit him, and you can still bhop.
If the guns have recoil then this will be slightly more difficult <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> but you will still hit him.
(maybe you will still die, but that isn't the point)
You CAN bhop and shoot, since these guns are recoilless anyway.
And IF you want to talk about IRL present, well WTH are you bhopping with a gun anyway. You'd be pretty fuxxed up, but WTH are you doing. If you are fighting a skulk then you might as well do what you have to do, cuz it's better to be fuxxed up than to be dead, probably.
First, throw out realism. So many of the replies in this thread are about how "realistic" push or jumping while firing a gun is. If you want realism, go outside. Go play a "tactical shooter." This is a video game, and in good video games, it's gameplay that counts.
Skulks are supposed to lose at ranged combat. I don't really think this is in dispute. It's why they are melee-based, and why they can easily die in half a LMG clip, the initial marine equip. It's part of why the welder got a substancial nerf. Likewise, they're supposed to win in melee. This is why it only takes two bites (before upgrades) to down a marine. Obviously, knockback impedes melee combat because the marine can suddenly find himself back at medium range again.
It really sucks at hive 1, but not that badly. If you ambushed the marine, like you were <i>supposed</i> to, then the marine wasn't jumping when you bit them, and they didn't get pushed any significant distance. And it doesn't really matter how far their corpse flies on bite two. My guess is that many of the people complaining are your stereotypical MS-rush cara rambo skulks, because if they weren't, why would the marine be jumping at the first bite? It's either that they didn't lay out an ambush, or they blew their first bite, and either way, it's their own fault.
But what nobody is really talking about is what happens to skulks at hive 2- leap. With leap, skulks don't need to ambush marines anymore. They just need to be within about 50 feet, and at the push of a button, they are right next to their target. Stealth is out the window as long as they can leap effectively, and that doesn't take a lot of skill.
Less skill than aiming a LMG at a lightning fast, airborne target, to be sure.
Bhop and knockback were what make hive-2 skulks survivable, and one of those is gone. Taking out knockback would be crippling to the team that is already suffering the most in the mid to late 1.1 games.
Maybe that marine was bhoping to move fast, had wh(=motion tracking), heared you when you were going to your ambush spot, saw you going there or just was jumping in potential ambush spot since jumping gives great advantage especially in 1.0x (hitbox bugs and flying to the other end of the room.)
...It's a good thing we're talking about 1.1 here, where bhopping isn't a means to get around, and jumping doesn't give a "great advantage" when you're not in combat. The other points (being heard, seen) were simple failure of alien skill; the ambush was conceived too late, and that's the skulk's fault.
I don't think it would be wrong to say that about 90% of fighting is close range. I mean, you gotta be a pretty f*ing dumb skulk if you want to run at marines straight from long range! With leap gapping the distance is a no-brainer and speed is the skulks advantage to get close if you just have to attack marines straightforward. Getting close should by NO MEANS equal a kill. That would be utterly devastating for marines. As far as teamwork goes: what kind of fun would it be if you knew your team had to go trough a doorway and there were couple of skulks waiting? The first one to enter would always die, so who would be stupid enough to go first? Nice stalemate you got there... Ambush strategy or more describingly "hiding behind a corner when a marine knows you are there" isn't supposed to guarantee you a kill. Marines need ways to survive close range and if an unrealistic push is what it takes instead of unrealistic bhopping, then it's OK.
I can understand it can be frustrating to lose to a rambo marine close range, but it would be 10000x more frustrating to play a marine and walk into a perfectly clear ambush knowing you will die 100% sure...
Skulk bites now -
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It should be -
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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as teamwork goes: what kind of fun would it be if you knew your team had to go trough a doorway and there were couple of skulks waiting? The first one to enter would always die, so who would be stupid enough to go first?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This already happens to skulks that group up to attack a marine position so what's your point?
-and-
I don't think a total removal of the knockback is necessary or wise; however, something needs to be done about the amount of knockback a jumping marine gets when bitten.
In case you hadn't noticed, skulks are loud as hell. Suddenly hear the tappity tap of little skulk feet behind you? Jump a few times and turn around. Instant skulk defense. Passing through a doorway into a potentially infested room? Why walk through when you can jump through and get instant skulk defense. And 1.1 doesn't really prevent the effectiveness of a few short jumps like these.
This already happens to skulks that group up to attack a marine position so what's your point?
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Huh? You mean the first skulk in a group will die no matter what when attacking marines? He can bhop and wallclimb and these "skills" don't depend on the marines. People are suggesting marines would be at the skulks mercy close range when in fact most of the combat is close range and with hive 2 there is no long range fighting against skulks (thanks to leap). I don't mind going first to attack marines as a skulk, because I know I can evade well and I survive quite often... I don't mind going first as a marine to a skulk ambush either for the same reason.
Please explain your question, because I obviously didn't get your point if there was one...
In any event, we are talking about the push effect, not |337 dodging skilz.
In case you hadn't noticed, skulks are loud as hell. Suddenly hear the tappity tap of little skulk feet behind you? Jump a few times and turn around. Instant skulk defense. Passing through a doorway into a potentially infested room? Why walk through when you can jump through and get instant skulk defense. And 1.1 doesn't really prevent the effectiveness of a few short jumps like these.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Through the use of parasite or the new Scent of Fear, ambushes can be pretty tightly executed so that chase distance on the skulk's prey should be minimal. With movement, Silence is obviously an option, but Celerity with the new increased skulk movement speed sounds like it would close the gap without leaving a lot of response time as well. So there's solutions for 2 of the 3 chambers, plus one using the skulk initial equip.
And, of course, Flayra has mentioned that footstep sfx have undergone changes. I would assume that these changes make the skulks a tad quieter, but I don't know for absolute certain. Any testers care to comment?
PS: And there is no way any one can say that aliens have any advantages over rines. In 1.04(5), as a team they [the marines] are superior (faster respawn times), and as individuals are stronger then the aliens (I can't remeber the last time I was killed by a fade in a 1 on 1 fight), making them vastly superior even when both teams are using team work.
No kidding. I agree with everything else he said, but that fade stuff was pure exaggeration.
Me as <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> >>> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
*yawn*
Or so.