Fairness, Balance, Etc. Ad Nauseum
AvengingBob
Join Date: 2003-06-30 Member: 17822Members
Join Date: 2003-06-30 Member: 17822Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Any thoughts on balance</div> <i>Balance.</i>
Balance.
One of the things that makes my friends and I enjoy this game so bloody much is that it is one of the few mods that doesn't (at least in 1.04) attempt to enforce a strict sense of balance upon the gameplay when it applies to individual players.
For example: A Marine with an LMG at the beginning of a game, meeting a Skulk, 1 on 1, ill almost definetly lose if the skulk sees him first. Even if he does see the skulk first, and somehow draws a bead on it before it is on him, it is still even money the skulk will win. Is that balanced, for the poor lonely marine? Hell, no!
But, take that same marine, and sock him with an HMG or GL, and set him on a RT with an OC or three guarding it, and he will come out smelling like roses. Again, not balanced at all. A marine techinically shouldn't be able to take on an alien outpost like that without getting shredded. But does he? Yes.
Is it fair that a comm must wait for several seconds for a marine to acknowledge is order, than wander around, finally get to it, and get chomped, when a Gorge only has to be there and build something? Again, no.
It is this utter unfairness of certain situations that makes this game so blasted fun. If I successfully take out a skulk or two with an LMG by myself, knowing that the odds are completely against me, I am very happy. I am smug. I am especially smug because I know that I beat those suckers on luck and skill, most likely luck, and not because they were crippled in any way to make the game more balanced.
People complain about the HMG whoring. I will agree, this can be a somewhat annoying problem. But, skulks, gorges, and lerks, and fades if you can get'm early on, can totally wipe out a marine base if they take it out early.
The way I figure it, having to actaully seize the oppurtunities given to us by fate is much mroe preferable to having to play under a pseudo-communism in which everybody has an advantage, on both sides. Sometimes, kiddies, one side is almost <i>guaranteed</i> a win. This sense of desperation for the weaker side is what makes the gameplay so intense, so furious, and so fun. God forbid that we end up like other mods *cough*CS*cough*, where the gameplay is in everybodies favor, and winning is a simple matter of who gets the first shot in edgewise. Those mods inspire no sense of tactics, strategy, or interest; NS, on the other hand, is unbalanced in such a perfect way that we actually feel like we are fighting a battle (if, occasionally, a losing one).
As a closing note, a short message to you guys complaining about Marines jumping to avoid getting chomped:
If you had a Skulk running at you, wouldn't you prefer looking idiotic to looking dead?
Also, any Skulk that is unskilled and moronic enough to screw up a simple chomping on a Marine (over whom, I will restate, you have an advantage!) deserves to get their *** capped.
Also, is there any truth to that rumor about moving while crouched being taken out in 1.1?
-AB
Balance.
One of the things that makes my friends and I enjoy this game so bloody much is that it is one of the few mods that doesn't (at least in 1.04) attempt to enforce a strict sense of balance upon the gameplay when it applies to individual players.
For example: A Marine with an LMG at the beginning of a game, meeting a Skulk, 1 on 1, ill almost definetly lose if the skulk sees him first. Even if he does see the skulk first, and somehow draws a bead on it before it is on him, it is still even money the skulk will win. Is that balanced, for the poor lonely marine? Hell, no!
But, take that same marine, and sock him with an HMG or GL, and set him on a RT with an OC or three guarding it, and he will come out smelling like roses. Again, not balanced at all. A marine techinically shouldn't be able to take on an alien outpost like that without getting shredded. But does he? Yes.
Is it fair that a comm must wait for several seconds for a marine to acknowledge is order, than wander around, finally get to it, and get chomped, when a Gorge only has to be there and build something? Again, no.
It is this utter unfairness of certain situations that makes this game so blasted fun. If I successfully take out a skulk or two with an LMG by myself, knowing that the odds are completely against me, I am very happy. I am smug. I am especially smug because I know that I beat those suckers on luck and skill, most likely luck, and not because they were crippled in any way to make the game more balanced.
People complain about the HMG whoring. I will agree, this can be a somewhat annoying problem. But, skulks, gorges, and lerks, and fades if you can get'm early on, can totally wipe out a marine base if they take it out early.
The way I figure it, having to actaully seize the oppurtunities given to us by fate is much mroe preferable to having to play under a pseudo-communism in which everybody has an advantage, on both sides. Sometimes, kiddies, one side is almost <i>guaranteed</i> a win. This sense of desperation for the weaker side is what makes the gameplay so intense, so furious, and so fun. God forbid that we end up like other mods *cough*CS*cough*, where the gameplay is in everybodies favor, and winning is a simple matter of who gets the first shot in edgewise. Those mods inspire no sense of tactics, strategy, or interest; NS, on the other hand, is unbalanced in such a perfect way that we actually feel like we are fighting a battle (if, occasionally, a losing one).
As a closing note, a short message to you guys complaining about Marines jumping to avoid getting chomped:
If you had a Skulk running at you, wouldn't you prefer looking idiotic to looking dead?
Also, any Skulk that is unskilled and moronic enough to screw up a simple chomping on a Marine (over whom, I will restate, you have an advantage!) deserves to get their *** capped.
Also, is there any truth to that rumor about moving while crouched being taken out in 1.1?
-AB
Comments
I don't know where you play, but where I play, a single stock marine can easily kill three or four uncarapaced skulks without dying, and it is very difficult for an uncarapaced skulk to kill even one marine.
I don't believe NS has abandoned balance. Rather it tries to balance the teams rather than the players. Indeed, no matter what some people may say, it does a damn fine job of it. The difficulty of balancing increases with the differences between the items balanced. High points to Flayra and the NS crew for having the talent to make such an interesting mod.
Amen to that brother.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, any Skulk that is unskilled and moronic enough to screw up a simple chomping on a Marine (over whom, I will restate, you have an advantage!) deserves to get their *** capped.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where are you playing? One decent lmg marine can easily cap 2-4 skulks, at least in my experience.
Yep, they are pretty much balanced, statistically speaking. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Don't let this end the chatting though. Interesting thread...
Yep, they are pretty much balanced, statistically speaking. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Don't let this end the chatting though. Interesting thread... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> i am not letting the chatting end
It's very interesting and makes for a rather refreshing experience, compared to other games.
On the other hand, in a place with lots of cover (a marine base with building packed close together and no mines is perfect), a skulk can survive for a while, even though the buildings block both marines and skulk the skulk tends to have the advantage with his melee attack.
10,000 hours is roughly 417 days. Which as we all know is a little over a year. NS 1.0 was released On Hallowe'en 2002, which was only 9 months (roughly) ago. And you say "10's" meaning more than 10,000, so roughly 20,000 hours or so? Which puts the start of the statistics stupidly before release. HOW DO YOU HAVE THIS DATA <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
God, sorry, heh, just felt like being a bit pedantic.
10,000 hours is roughly 417 days. Which as we all know is a little over a year. NS 1.0 was released On Hallowe'en 2002, which was only 9 months (roughly) ago. And you say "10's" meaning more than 10,000, so roughly 20,000 hours or so? Which puts the start of the statistics stupidly before release. HOW DO YOU HAVE THIS DATA <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
God, sorry, heh, just felt like being a bit pedantic.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, he said it was from pub server*s*, so you can have many hours of data from a single hour of gameplay.
Hope that helps clear it up!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is it fair that a comm must wait for several seconds for a marine to acknowledge is order, than wander around, finally get to it, and get chomped, when a Gorge only has to be there and build something? Again, no.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that gorge doesn't sit in a chair with godly amounts of hitpoints and the comm have more resourses to spend than a singel gorge.
Solution: allow gorges to get in the command chair. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's pretty amusing. Play in any server where the marines are near clan level, or at least decent, and you'll notice skulks are torn to bits en masse by marines at the moment.
Hell, a common tactic at the moment is at the start of game two marines head to the hive, and bottle the skulks on their own for a good 5 minutes.
However, put a skilled user behind the LMG, and I guarentee skulk ownage.
This is a <b>fact</b>.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> WTH? Last time I checked I was still going ninja style all over the place.
Maybe you're thinking of the hitbox problem where you can't kill the marine easily enough if he's crouching. Or maybe you're talking about silent bunnyhopping. That's also gone.
Not really pendantic of you, just slow-witted. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Man-hours, or server-hours, if you like. There are always 400-500 servers out there, and during the initial NS crush of the first month, it was closer to 2000.
Fair, Balanced, and Conservative.
... well, maybe that last one doesn't fit. But you get the idea.
EDIT
And no, this post didn't really have a point other than the Fox one liner. I've been up for almost 24 hours. Scorchign case of poision ivy kept me from sleeping... <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
ontopic:
flayra and the gang have done an excellent job of balancing two completely different teams. CS and DoD have nothing on these guys. all they did for dod was just change the weapon models and CS is practicslly identical for both teams.
ontopic:
flayra and the gang have done an excellent job of balancing two completely different teams. CS and DoD have nothing on these guys. all they did for dod was just change the weapon models and CS is practicslly identical for both teams. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Haven't played much dod have you?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've done this to me before. It's sooooooooo annoying <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Seriously, like we'd wait in the hive for like 5 skulks to spawn, and we'd all come out and rush you, only to have you mow us all down.
Then you'd run off and kill the gorge. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Glad to see I got some responses that were sane (was worried I'd be flamed... wheew...).
In any event, I agree with what ya'll have said... with the exception to the fellow that says that 1 marine = 4+ skulks. Mebbe, if the skulks are controlled reallly poorly, or hovar w/o flapping. Wait, nope..... hold on. Hovars without... WTH? Oh yeah... Anyway, I mean to say if the skulks are charging down a long corridor at said marine. Much gooiness then ensues for the skulks. Otherwise, with a skilled skulk, or one that gets the drop on a marine, it can be nasty (whichbot, I've heard, is evil like this.).
On the whole gorge getting into comm chair... ::shudders::
That is the sickest, most evil thing I have ever heard. Would fatty even fit in there? I would love a pic of this!
On marine rushing...
A counter-rush with skulks is usually quick enough that it cn get to marine base before marines get to theirs (at least on hera, I think it's hera anyway...)
On DoD...
Guns aren't balanced for the teams there; Axis has uber weaponry, with allies having just some decent firearms. An MG-42 is utter spammage if left to do so. Speaking of which... MG42 in NS, anyone?
But if the marine is skilled, he can easily jump away from the skulk and put nine bullets into it.
Be sure to blame all the vets and PT's for the bugs and inbalances you find too, they love when you do that, in my experience <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->