Regen Vs. Cara

Creepin_Jeezus · July 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">which one wins?</div> I've been playing NS (amazing mod, keep the work up) for a good few weeks now, for the most part i play aliens, but one of things i've been thinking about the past day or so, is wether the regen of cara upgrade is best.

heres my thoughts on each...

<u>Carapace</u>
I havn't been using this as long as regen, so i don't have as much experience with it. My thoughts about it is wether the extra time you can get to live is worth it... im sure its very usefull against low level guns, like LMGs, but what about the later stages? also, if you want to live for any extended period of time you'll have to run back and get healed, which means you can only do short attacks or suprises...

on the other hand there

<u>Regeneration</u>
This is my personal favourite. especially when attacking turret farms with no marines, and even more so with celerity (assuming your a skulk). Also it can let you keep the pressure on a marine base, just simply hide a little distance away and then rush back in, or, you can hide in a hard to reach place, where the odd shot will hit you, which will be healed, distracting one or two marines for a few minutes, maybe even help an ambush!

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'>

but now for your oppinions... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'>

Church · July 2003

Realize, young grasshoppa, that there are no undefended turret farms anymore on decent servers. Heck, there are rarely any turrets used, much less turret farms. Mines are everything, and regeneration will not let you survive a mine, while carapace will. Aliens move fast, and the time it takes for regen to do its job is longer than the time it takes to get to a healing station, and get healed there. A skulk with regen will still only take 9 level 0 lmg bullets to kill, or 5 pistol bullets. Regen is only useful for later stages of the game, when you have fades and oni, and even then carapace is better for fades. You see, the simple fact is, carapace is too ridiculously overpowered in 1.04. It more than doubles the damage you can take before you die. With regen against upgraded guns you can't stay in the battle long enough to do ANY damage before you have to retreat, unless you are an onos. It only takes like what? like 10 lmg bullets to kill an uncarapaced lerk? But like 30 to kill a carapaced one? It only takes between 20 and 30 lmg bullets to kill an uncara fade, but like 77 to kill a cara one.

FaT_CaM · July 2003

Carapcae is almost nessecary for a skulk, since regen doesnt work fast enough to heal it during a battle. carapace is good for lerks, who fly around spiking. But regen is designed for running in, hurting people, running out and reapeat. Carapace (like meatshield mentioned) not only lets you extend your armor, but also increase the amount of damage you can take.

IF I had celerity THEN I would use regen as a skulk, but at two hives skulks still arent really worth it.

Church · July 2003

At two hives screw celerity as skulk take adren and use LEAP to get in and out of fights.

Akuma · July 2003

Adren/cara skulk for two hives. Leap all you can! Drives marines insane trying to hit a near constant leaping skulk.

3 hives well...maybe cara. You are gonna blow yourself up anyway <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

briDge · July 2003

the decieving thing about carapace is it doesn't just give you 20 more points of armor, but it effects how much damage you take overall. Like someone said it more than doubles the shots you can take as a skulk... and therefore is the be all and end all of all skulk defensive upgrades.

That_Annoying_Kid · July 2003

regen is for hit and run

cara is good when your attacking with DC's close by or duking it out.

cara does tend to be the upgrade of choice

Mouse · July 2003

I swear by regen. The reason cara is prefered is becasue it takes less 'skill' to use. I was a pretty decent UT player way back when, and as a result I can dodge, weave and generally prance like a retarded monkey ball when I have to.
If you do decide to use regen often I suggest you follow one of these mantra.

"If they can't hit me, they can't kill me"
or
"Go Go crazy retarded monkeyball!!!!"

FaT_CaM · July 2003

LOL! OMFGCRAZYMONKEYBALL!

Now that skulks orient on walls, it'll look so cool when they run at u.

SoulSkorpion · July 2003

I either use carapace or nothing at all. I find if I take any hits, those hits kill me (unless I've got carapace).

ThE_HeRo · July 2003

Regen is for the more talented/non suicidal player. Regen takes strategy and skill to use. Carapace is for the more suicidal skulk. Carapace is great for assulting, when healing is nearby, etc. Regen is for the more "Terrorist" kind of skulk. You strike quickly, run back and heal, and repeat. Its awesome when you've parasited marines, because you can usually lure one of them and kill him, heal, lure the other one out, etc.

But i disagree on how jeezus said that regen is only useful late in the game. Regen is only useful when the marines dont have lvl 2 weapon upgrades. When they get level 2, you have no choice but to get cara as skulk. You die in like 6-7 shots with no carapace with lvl 2 guns. And at the rate the lmg pumps ammo out, thats about .2 seconds.

Lerk, the only choice you have is carapace, anything but is just stupid. sorry. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Fade, regen and carapace, they can go either way. Carapace is still favored for most though.

Onos, regen all the way. You can heal the damage as the marines are doing it. Its insanely hard to kill a regen onos, much less a carapaced one. I dont even think a single marine has enough ammo to kill an onos with regen.

Creepin_Jeezus · July 2003

I agree with Mouse and The Hero whole-heartedly, especialy "If they can't hit me, they can't kill me" <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

i wasn't saying how regen is only useful later on, its just easier to survive with celerity and leap [evil laugh]. how effective regen is depends on if you survive the initial attack and if there is alot of cover. what i find is that if you attack a small marine base, if your fast enough, you can just run around all the marine buildings (providing they're dumb enough to put down many mines around the building)
for instance, if your team had a good advantage, you could leap right into the middle of the base, then hide for a few second to heal a little damage, then run around the buildings, making yourself <i>extremely</i> hard to hit, then when ur health is low, leap away as fast as possible to heal. just like Hero mentions in less detail.

also, the thing about carapace is that, we've all seen how quickly skulks can go down, so is double the amount of damage <i>really</i> that much? i mean, you might last a second or two longer, but in alot of scenarios that isnt enough time.

and as for fades with carapace, i never choose that, its better to just acid rocket round a corner, pause for a few seconds to heal the few shots that hit you, then go and attack again, and this is even better with umbra around, since you'll heal every shot.

Stoneburg · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>also, the thing about carapace is that, we've all seen how quickly skulks can go down, so is double the amount of damage really that much?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Err.. yes? You are 10 feet from a marine. Without cara you cover say 6 of those. With cara you will cover 12, meaning you will get to him and chomp him.

Cara is obviously a lot better for aliens with low hitpoints, like skulks, lerks and gorges. Regen, since it is based on your hitpoints, is better the more you have. A lerk will regen hitpoints at a miniscule rate compared to an Onos.

My recommendation is that as skulk, lerk or gorge you always use cara. As fade you use cara if your team is somewhat organised (you have healing stations) and regen if it isn't or if you want to 'work' far from your bass.

With Onos you're better off with regen simply because even a small percentage of an onos hitpoints is a large amount of hitpoints.

im_lost · July 2003

As a skulk, I say carapace always. Regen is too slow to ever help you in a fight. I used to love regen, but I eventually came to realize that it is very weak on a skulk.

As a lerk with one hive, I would probably take carapace, but I rarely go lerk at one hive. With two hives, you can use umbra to slow down damage, so regen is a good choice, especially if you are going to move in with a crowd of fades. At three hives do whatever you want, the game should be over anyway.

As a fade, it depends how you like to fight. If you like to fire a few acid rockets, run in with claws and do a lot of damage, then run away to heal, carapace is the best choice. If you like to stay 50 feet away from any marines and fire lots of acid rockets, regen is better because you should not be hit too much at one time and you don't ever have to retreat unless 3 or more marines rush at you. The second type of play is what I prefer (which is why the first part is explained poorly). Make sure you know how to use claws semi-effectively even if you like acid rocket a lot, because marines will rush at you and acid rocket drains adrenaline too quickly to deal with all of them.

If you are onos it doesn't really matter what you get, as long as it is not redemption, because you will get stuck every time it occurs. Redemption can be good on a fade, but I only do this if resources are coming in very slowly or if there is a good chance we will be down to one hive soon after I go fade. Redemption can be very good on a gorge, because it hurts your team a lot if you are the starting gorge and you die at the beginning. Redemption is not any good on a skulk because it normally won't work, and I think the same is true for lerks.

Here is a link showing how many hits different life forms can take (so you can see how much cara helps).
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm</a>

ALL OF THIS IS FOR 1.04.
1.1/2.0 will change all of that.

Stoneburg · July 2003

Also...

It doesn't have to do with 'skill'. That's just people being presumptious and self-glorifying. It has different uses. If you want to hide somewhere and make small attacks, say parasite someone or chomp the occasional solo marine, regen will be more useful unless you have a healing station nearby. Carapace allows you to deliver much more of a punch as a skulk though.

Simple mathematics will show that to be more useful then carapace in a single situation, a regen skulk has to stay alive long enough for him to be *fully* healed from 1 hit point. That takes quite some time. If you can stay alive that long in direct contact with Marines odds are you don't need any upgrades at all or you need to find a server with better players.

Carapace needs teamwork to be taken maximum advantage of, that's about the only 'weakness' it has at the moment.

Stoneburg · July 2003

Actually redemption is totally useless on a skulk whether it works or not, unless you are being spawn camped. If it works, you just saved... ehh.. the 2 points that you spent on redemption. If it doesn't, you just wasted those two points. So unless you have a huge spawn que or are being spawn camped, it's useless.

im_lost · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Jul 4 2003, 06:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Actually redemption is totally useless on a skulk whether it works or not, unless you are being spawn camped. If it works, you just saved... ehh.. the 2 points that you spent on redemption. If it doesn't, you just wasted those two points. So unless you have a huge spawn que or are being spawn camped, it's useless.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
It isn't totally useless if it works (which it usually doesn't), even if you aren't being spawn camped. It takes about 17 seconds to spawn (give or take, I'm not sure exactly). A successful redemption saves you that time, minus the 3 seconds it takes the hive to heal you (since there are probably dc's by the hive it is only about 1.5 seconds). The 10+ seconds you save can be crucial. I'm not saying it is worth using, but in 1.1, if it works a reasonable amount of the time it might be worth using as a skulk.

Stoneburg · July 2003

A small chance of saving 10 sec as a skulk

Vs.

Being able to take twice as much damage every time

Mouse · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Jul 4 2003, 09:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> It doesn't have to do with 'skill'. That's just people being presumptious and self-glorifying...

...a regen skulk has to stay alive long enough for him to be *fully* healed from 1 hit point... </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
and that is the skill I was talking about. It takes skill (and or luck) to stay alive long enough.

Pege · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mouse @ Jul 4 2003, 08:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Jul 4 2003, 09:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> It doesn't have to do with 'skill'. That's just people being presumptious and self-glorifying...

...a regen skulk has to stay alive long enough for him to be *fully* healed from 1 hit point... </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
and that is the skill I was talking about. It takes skill (and or luck) to stay alive long enough. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yes, Mouse is right. It does have to do with skill. Good players who evade well and hit with bite get shot less. It is another case, however, whether someone good enough to evade lvl 2 LMG marines and survive could do 3 times the damage with carapace than regeneration... Don't confuse the two though.

Stoneburg · July 2003

If you're skilled enough to stay alive that long with eregen, you're skilled enough to stay alive twice as long with carapace. If you're skilled enough to stay alive twice as long as it takes to heal a skulk from 1 hp in a fight then you *should* be skilled enough to kill all the marines meaning you don't need regen.

Unless your *only* skill is avoiding them and you can't bite a marine to save your life.

Trevelyan · July 2003

anyone good with blink will always choose cara over regen considering you can blink across the map in about 30 seconds... heal, and blink back faster then regen heals you.

Lt_Hendrickson · July 2003

Ill add this.
If your lerking, and there is a tiny chance you may encounter marines, use Carapace. If you dont its not even funny how easy you are kill.

Skydancer · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt. Hendrickson @ Jul 4 2003, 05:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Ill add this.
If your lerking, and there is a tiny chance you may encounter marines, use Carapace. If you dont its not even funny how easy you are kill.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
add the fact that if you're not specialized with lerks and take regen, as soon as you are low on health you WILL try to escape in the most awkward way (i.e. slamming on walls/archstones/pipes etc) and die.

Lancelot · July 2003

Which upgrade is better, depends on your mission and whether the gorge got DCs nearby.

In remote parts of the map, a single parasiting regen skulk can annoy 1-3 marines quite effectivley, and when he has the opportunity he is in for a quick kill, regenerating in the vents or even someplace the rines can hear him. The greatest danger is the pistol, coz it fires insanly fast and kills you with 5 bullets.
Regen lerks can spike kill turrets and phase gates, and hide to regenerate. Depends on the distance to the next "healing station".
Regen fades are best for flanking too, while the cara fades fight the front with umbra support, the regen fades attack the rine outposts and usually take them down.

Choose your upgrade depending on your mission.

mfg

Lance

Lt_Hendrickson · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lancelot @ Jul 5 2003, 05:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Regen lerks can spike kill turrets and phase gates, and hide to regenerate.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Taking our turrents with regen ok. But if theres a phase gate there that means marines can come and that means Dont take regen. A regen lerk is a dead lerk if spotted by a marine.

Ice · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt. Hendrickson @ Jul 5 2003, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Taking our turrents with regen ok. But if theres a phase gate there that means marines can come and that means Dont take regen. A regen lerk is a dead lerk if spotted by a marine.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Tell that to the quite large number of marines I've killed from the vent in ns_caged with regen <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Elderwyrm · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ice @ Jul 5 2003, 02:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt. Hendrickson @ Jul 5 2003, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Taking our turrents with regen ok. But if theres a phase gate there that means marines can come and that means Dont take regen. A regen lerk is a dead lerk if spotted by a marine. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Tell that to the quite large number of marines I've killed from the vent in ns_caged with regen <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Where do I find these nubs?

Lt_Hendrickson · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ice @ Jul 5 2003, 02:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt. Hendrickson @ Jul 5 2003, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Taking our turrents with regen ok. But if theres a phase gate there that means marines can come and that means Dont take regen. A regen lerk is a dead lerk if spotted by a marine. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Tell that to the quite large number of marines I've killed from the vent in ns_caged with regen <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
they have to be nubs. any semi relatively decent marine would pistol u so fast its not even funny.

MasterShake · July 2003

I agree that it's more of a tactics preference. If you can run around like a retarded monkey ball and can do it without disorienting yourself beyond repair (or smashing your keyboard for that matter,) by all means get regen. The stray bullet you take will be absorbed much easier.

However, if you are a more normal person and your blood sugar is not at a dangerously high level, you should probably just go with carapace. When a marine hits you, you are usually dead in a matter of seconds. Carapace will add an extra second or two of chomping time, which can equal a kill for you.

Stoneburg · July 2003

The huge difference in gameplay after the 3 D chambers go up is NOT attributed to regen. There's a reason it's called pre-cara <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Regen Vs. Cara

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