moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Jul 4 2003, 11:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Jul 4 2003, 11:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It seems they don't even know the difference between a story and a plot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Enlighten us.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Jul 5 2003, 04:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Jul 5 2003, 04:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If we assume for a second that Flayra didn't give his permission, how exactly would this project violate his intellectual property?
It would be an add-on with original maps you install into your NS folder, which in itself is freely distributable. The NS artwork would be used, not copied. As for the name, it doesn't need to reference any trademarked terms, even if a term as common in everyday life as "Natural Selection" is a valid courtproof trademark. And if any of the accused is not resident of the USA, things get even more difficult. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To cut this short, the name 'Nagtural Selection' in any kind of PCgame context is Flayras intellectual property. So are plot, artwork, and so on. Any kind of unauthorized use, and this would be quite certainly one such, could allow him to take legal steps. We could extend this; sufficient to say that this wouldn't be the first time Flay has to defend these rights, and that his former competitors were in far better positions (think 'AvP2: Natural Selection').
I'm not saying that amckern & co. will be sued to hell and back, I'm just pointing out that Flayra has every legal right to defend his intellectual property.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Intellectual property is a very muddy thing to begin with because the concept of owning ideas has little foothold in reality. It's more or less a lawyer's invention to protect Disney's Mickey Mouse.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're mixing the age-old concept of intellectual property, and the so called 'mickey Mouse legislation' extending this ownership over ridiculously long times (75 years right now) up. Intellectual ownership is a cornerstone of every creative business - if you can't be sure you'll be able to call what you're creating your own, why bother? The ludicrous extension of this right, which used to be limited to 25 years, is an entirely different matter.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Any kind of unauthorized use, and this would be quite certainly one such, could allow him to take legal steps.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If they included any file from the official NS distribution in their distribution, it certainly would be unauthorized use. However, if their distribution only contains their own work, which then interacts with the official NS installation in a peculiar way, the only person who is actually "using" the artwork is the end-user who's playing the game, and he has permission to "use" it for game playing purposes. I'm aware that this is a shaky argument, but so is yours, as cases like this are usually solved via cease & desist letters before they ever reach a courtroom.
Of course this particular project will crumble before the first screenshot is produced; nonetheless Flayra's legal rights as copyright owner are not as absolute as you make them to be.
Good point about the trademark; but moot, as they could call their add-on "Marines vs. Aliens: An Add-On for Natural Selection ". Perfectly legal, especially because it's a non-profit effort, so it's not infringing anyone's business. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Intellectual ownership is a cornerstone of every creative business - if you can't be sure you'll be able to call what you're creating your own, why bother?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bleh I say! People have been creative ever since the stone age, and entertainment has been a "business" since the Middle Ages. Ideas have so many intangible properties that treating them as a tradeable good just doesn't make any sense. But we'll better postpone this debate until the Discussions Forums re-opens (i.e., never). <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Distribute <i>any</i> kind of game, be it commercial, freeware, shareware, add-on, or whatever you've got, with the name 'Natural Selection', and you are infringing on Flayras copyrights. Distribute <i>anything</i> based on NS' backstory, and you are infringing on Flayras copyrights.
See what I'm getting at? It's just not necessary to look at the way the possible add-on would interact with the core-game. Call it 'NS SP', and you are... Well, you get the idea.
Oh my. Sorry to get academic again, and I certainly appreciate the intensity with which you try to protect the mod you adore, but now you've utterly confused the legal terms. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Distribute any kind of game, be it commercial, freeware, shareware, add-on, or whatever you've got, with the name 'Natural Selection', and you are infringing on Flayras copyrights.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, you are infringing his registered trademark. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Distribute anything based on NS' backstory, and you are infringing on Flayras copyrights.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at all, because plots are not protected by copyright. The exact wording of stories is. Rephrase it, and you have a legally original, though artistically derivative, work.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Jul 5 2003, 10:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Jul 5 2003, 10:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh my. Sorry to get academic again, and I certainly appreciate the intensity with which you try to protect the mod you adore, but now you've utterly confused the legal terms. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Distribute any kind of game, be it commercial, freeware, shareware, add-on, or whatever you've got, with the name 'Natural Selection', and you are infringing on Flayras copyrights.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, you are infringing his registered trademark. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm living to learn. Anyway, does that make the whole thing legal? No? Thought so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Distribute anything based on NS' backstory, and you are infringing on Flayras copyrights.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at all, because plots are not protected by copyright. The exact wording of stories is. Rephrase it, and you have a legally original, though artistically derivative, work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's see... Will this new story include a faction of space marine called, oh say, 'TSA', killing some aliens called 'Kharaa'? Well then, bye-bye, legal original.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm living to learn. Anyway, does that make the whole thing legal? No? Thought so.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not so fast. If you, as I suggested above, call your add-on "Marines in Space: An Add-On for Natural Selection™* *(NS is a registered trademark of Charles G. Cleveland"... whose trademark are you infringing? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's see... Will this new story include a faction of space marine called, oh say, 'TSA', killing some aliens called 'Kharaa'?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have these terms been individually trademarked? If not, the only leg for your interpretation to stand on would be jurisdicition regarding <a href='http://www.publaw.com/fiction.html' target='_blank'>fictional characters</a>. That's a long shot, because both are anonymous organizations whose emotional value to the recipient has not been fleshed out in the work of art. In other words, they're faceless dummies, serving as target objects in a shooting game.
Are they covered by copyright? I have no idea. Judges have to interpret the law, not me. I'm just pointing out that the protection of these things is not at all as absolute and certain as you make it sound. It's indeed a very new and very grey area of jurisdiction.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Jul 5 2003, 12:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 5 2003, 12:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let's see... Will this new story include a faction of space marine called, oh say, 'TSA', killing some aliens called 'Kharaa'? Well then, bye-bye, legal original. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmmm couldn't it be a little different if the story involved "Terran" space marines fighting weird evolving aliens , let's name them... something like "Zerg" ? Oh wait...
And really , what's this babbling about intellectual property ? As if Flayra needed lawyers to protect His mod... if he's not pleased with a particular SP map pack or addon or whatever the community can flame their authors to hell <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Mods should be copylefted (non-profit aspect protection) to make things clear , is there are reason why NS isn't since you claim it can be copyrighted ?
I'll agree that it's a new area of jurisdiction, but we've got quite a number of preceeding cases - think of all the times Blizzard intervened in SC mods, on a very similiar factual basis. As for the 'emotional value', I'd point at Six Days in Sanji, the manual, and the various other official parts of the background written by Jeff Paris. Whether they succeeded or not (which is a subjective question not to be decided in court), there're definite efforts towards making them more than anonymous organizations. Similiar with your proposed 'Marines in Space' name - similiarily worded add-ons have been shot down in various cases by various developers; think (again) of all the unauthorized SC add-ons which dissapeared rather abruptly. Mentioning the trademark owner does not automatically allow you to use that mark. Just try to call a game 'Aliens™'.
We may now go on arguing into eternity - the fact remains, Flayra is the sole owner of all NS-related copyrights and trademarks; he went to great lengths with securing those. The chances of an amateur team that's quite obviously basing their work on his without of obtaining permission would - all grey areas considered - in no case be very good in court.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And really , what's this babbling about intellectual property ? As if Flayra needed lawyers to protect His mod... if he's not pleased with a particular SP map pack or addon or whatever the community can flame their authors to hell <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Flayra needed lawyers to protect NS in the past, and I doubt he won't need them ever again.
Once again, I do <i>not</i> believe this issue will end in a court order for anyone; personally, I hope to see Flayra give the team an official 'go', because I'm quite frankly quite interested in what they'll manage to come up with. What I'm trying to show here is that Natural Selection is legally protected. All our dreams of a perfect world with free intellectual and creative property aside, the man needs to eat, and those copyrights and trademarks are pretty much what he invested his last two years in.
I dont think this is an "arguement" that needs settling. Nems last post summed it all up perfectly - NS is protected by law. That was all that Nem was trying to claim. He didnt say Flayra was gonna launch legal action against them - all he said was that Flayra COULD if he wanted to, which is perfectly true.
Dont assume everyone with a different opinion to you is actually out to get you and oppose you on every level - from tweks defending of what he is doing, it almost sounded like he thought Nem was threatening legal action.
We're all on the same side here lads (unless you play cs lol j/k <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->). I for one would love to see an NS single player, just as much as Nem and Tweks wish to.
/me looks on in shock at the gross legal inaccuracies and outlandish claims of this thread.
Now I'm no law student but I was under the impression that plots were very much under copyright and what not protection. Unless you declare your work some sort of "parody" I do believe the original owners of the plot have the right to decide where it goes.
As Twex stated, computer games are not yet a juristically 'fixed' area. One could start arguing whether a multiplayergame as NS is one can indeed have a plot in the classical sense.
Guys this isn't going to be a standalone. Just a little bit of editing of the liblist file and some mm and we have NS Singleplayer. I'm trying to make the SP NOT tie directly into Flayra's NS, because it is up to him to craft the world to how he pleases. If we made a SP that said "Flayra was wrong, the Kharaa are really like this" then I'm sure he'd get pretty p.o.ed..
<span style='color:white'>[edit]</span>Oh and my story is centered around a mutant Kharaa and local police of a Colony. Right now it's militia group but it gets a lot juicier. Like I said - No forced tie ins. Just a small side story. <span style='color:white'>[/edit]
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
:-( i missed a flame war :-( *g* but now serious. I think everyone knows that no one wants to steal something from flayra, and as i said, flayra has just to say one word and we stop, its that easy. And now stop all that, its senseless, just continue the work and wait that flayra sais something. I cannot imagine that he has something against a well done SP addon. (well, i dont know how the other mappers in the team map, but well.. we will see)
would it be all that bad for Flay to step in about now and post his thoughts? Rather than turn this thread into pure speculation why don't we conclude it by Flayra posting yes or no. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited July 2003
Now I'm getting a bit curious about this. Don't custom maps in general fall into the same category as this addon would? Could map makers conceivably (not that they would, just hypothetically) be sued for infringing on Flayra's copyright? Where do plugins like Voogru's NS Admin fall into this?
I think (?) the distinction that needs to be defined here is what constitutes a modification and what constitutes an entirely separate game. Theoretically here, using a custom model could be considered creating a whole different game (compatable with natural selection in every way) and stealing all the rest of the artwork. Have the courts ever had to deal with a case like this? Unless the DMCA has changed this, I would think that you can modify the software you yourself are using any way you want.
I would assume automatically that if you create a piece of software that doesn't require NS to play but uses some of the media it would immediately be a violation. But what if the software you are distributing requires NS to play, and you aren't distributing any of NS's media with your software? This would just be a plugin, and I don't think that companies can sue for plugins that interact with their software, can they?
The story and concepts of the game world would still be a copywrite violation. But if the game doesn't include any of the media, but just remotely references it instead, I think its untouchable in that area. You could still display a model of a skulk in the game, so long as you didn't include the skulk model in your download. Anyone with a legal background want to clarify this?
Lets out it this way, if these guys started to distribute what ever it is they are making then Flay could serve them up a cease and diesest order. But unless what they did is malicius or interfers with Flay's ideas/plans I doubt he will.
Not to take Asraniel's wind, but I thought I would try to articulate this the way I would, with an added note: I do not believe that Flayra could legally stop the development if it was just mapping and using the story. Not 100% certain about artwork, but if they <b>Don't</b> distribute they can do what they want.
why is there an argument? Isn't there a thread where Flayra says its ok? If yes, then its settled!
I'd love to see an NS singleplayer, hell, I just wanta decent bot for NS and i'll be happy! But an SP version would allow for a variety of new locations! You woudnt have to have the three hives and aliens spawning, tech race that Mp provides, you might have to protect an important location from a massive wave of skulks! It would be the portrayal of the story of NS, but with its own plot.
How do custom maps infringe on the Natural Selection universe? People who create custom maps don't really use Natural Selection's intellectual property.
I don't recall giving my permission for this project, but I don't think I would want to shut it down either. If I suddenly have a corporate interest to protect NS (ie, a company invests in me or the project really isn't very good), then I may ask you to rename it or not release it, but I don't forsee that happening. Lastly, it probably would be a smart move to indicate that this is an unofficial add-on for NS, ie, put "unofficial" in the title and place it prominently on the web site so no one is confused. When there is confusion, there are legal problems.
No one wants to get into any legal crap here. Lawyers are expensive and I don't want to spend my time litigating instead of game-making. Just make it obvious that it's not an official part of NS, and be prepared to stop working on it if I suddenly have a legal problem with it, and you'll be fine.
Comments
Enlighten us.
<a href='http://teenwriting.about.com/library/weekly/aa111102b.htm' target='_blank'>Two,</a>
<a href='http://storymind.com/dramatica/dramatica_theory_book/chapter_17.html' target='_blank'>Three,</a>
Google, I love thee!
It would be an add-on with original maps you install into your NS folder, which in itself is freely distributable. The NS artwork would be used, not copied. As for the name, it doesn't need to reference any trademarked terms, even if a term as common in everyday life as "Natural Selection" is a valid courtproof trademark. And if any of the accused is not resident of the USA, things get even more difficult. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
To cut this short, the name 'Nagtural Selection' in any kind of PCgame context is Flayras intellectual property. So are plot, artwork, and so on. Any kind of unauthorized use, and this would be quite certainly one such, could allow him to take legal steps.
We could extend this; sufficient to say that this wouldn't be the first time Flay has to defend these rights, and that his former competitors were in far better positions (think 'AvP2: Natural Selection').
I'm not saying that amckern & co. will be sued to hell and back, I'm just pointing out that Flayra has every legal right to defend his intellectual property.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Intellectual property is a very muddy thing to begin with because the concept of owning ideas has little foothold in reality. It's more or less a lawyer's invention to protect Disney's Mickey Mouse.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're mixing the age-old concept of intellectual property, and the so called 'mickey Mouse legislation' extending this ownership over ridiculously long times (75 years right now) up.
Intellectual ownership is a cornerstone of every creative business - if you can't be sure you'll be able to call what you're creating your own, why bother?
The ludicrous extension of this right, which used to be limited to 25 years, is an entirely different matter.
If they included any file from the official NS distribution in their distribution, it certainly would be unauthorized use. However, if their distribution only contains their own work, which then interacts with the official NS installation in a peculiar way, the only person who is actually "using" the artwork is the end-user who's playing the game, and he has permission to "use" it for game playing purposes. I'm aware that this is a shaky argument, but so is yours, as cases like this are usually solved via cease & desist letters before they ever reach a courtroom.
Of course this particular project will crumble before the first screenshot is produced; nonetheless Flayra's legal rights as copyright owner are not as absolute as you make them to be.
Good point about the trademark; but moot, as they could call their add-on "Marines vs. Aliens: An Add-On for Natural Selection ". Perfectly legal, especially because it's a non-profit effort, so it's not infringing anyone's business.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Intellectual ownership is a cornerstone of every creative business - if you can't be sure you'll be able to call what you're creating your own, why bother?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bleh I say! People have been creative ever since the stone age, and entertainment has been a "business" since the Middle Ages. Ideas have so many intangible properties that treating them as a tradeable good just doesn't make any sense. But we'll better postpone this debate until the Discussions Forums re-opens (i.e., never). <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Distribute <i>any</i> kind of game, be it commercial, freeware, shareware, add-on, or whatever you've got, with the name 'Natural Selection', and you are infringing on Flayras copyrights.
Distribute <i>anything</i> based on NS' backstory, and you are infringing on Flayras copyrights.
See what I'm getting at? It's just not necessary to look at the way the possible add-on would interact with the core-game. Call it 'NS SP', and you are... Well, you get the idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Distribute any kind of game, be it commercial, freeware, shareware, add-on, or whatever you've got, with the name 'Natural Selection', and you are infringing on Flayras copyrights.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you are infringing his registered trademark.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Distribute anything based on NS' backstory, and you are infringing on Flayras copyrights.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all, because plots are not protected by copyright. The exact wording of stories is. Rephrase it, and you have a legally original, though artistically derivative, work.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Distribute any kind of game, be it commercial, freeware, shareware, add-on, or whatever you've got, with the name 'Natural Selection', and you are infringing on Flayras copyrights.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you are infringing his registered trademark. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm living to learn. Anyway, does that make the whole thing legal? No? Thought so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Distribute anything based on NS' backstory, and you are infringing on Flayras copyrights.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all, because plots are not protected by copyright. The exact wording of stories is. Rephrase it, and you have a legally original, though artistically derivative, work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's see... Will this new story include a faction of space marine called, oh say, 'TSA', killing some aliens called 'Kharaa'?
Well then, bye-bye, legal original.
I'm not sure, but using those names would be legally grey, but probably not able to prosecute off. Depends on the context of course.
Not so fast. If you, as I suggested above, call your add-on "Marines in Space: An Add-On for Natural Selection™* *(NS is a registered trademark of Charles G. Cleveland"... whose trademark are you infringing?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's see... Will this new story include a faction of space marine called, oh say, 'TSA', killing some aliens called 'Kharaa'?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have these terms been individually trademarked? If not, the only leg for your interpretation to stand on would be jurisdicition regarding <a href='http://www.publaw.com/fiction.html' target='_blank'>fictional characters</a>. That's a long shot, because both are anonymous organizations whose emotional value to the recipient has not been fleshed out in the work of art. In other words, they're faceless dummies, serving as target objects in a shooting game.
Are they covered by copyright? I have no idea. Judges have to interpret the law, not me. I'm just pointing out that the protection of these things is not at all as absolute and certain as you make it sound. It's indeed a very new and very grey area of jurisdiction.
Well then, bye-bye, legal original. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm couldn't it be a little different if the story involved "Terran" space marines fighting weird evolving aliens , let's name them... something like "Zerg" ? Oh wait...
And really , what's this babbling about intellectual property ? As if Flayra needed lawyers to protect His mod... if he's not pleased with a particular SP map pack or addon or whatever the community can flame their authors to hell <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Mods should be copylefted (non-profit aspect protection) to make things clear , is there are reason why NS isn't since you claim it can be copyrighted ?
I'll agree that it's a new area of jurisdiction, but we've got quite a number of preceeding cases - think of all the times Blizzard intervened in SC mods, on a very similiar factual basis. As for the 'emotional value', I'd point at Six Days in Sanji, the manual, and the various other official parts of the background written by Jeff Paris. Whether they succeeded or not (which is a subjective question not to be decided in court), there're definite efforts towards making them more than anonymous organizations.
Similiar with your proposed 'Marines in Space' name - similiarily worded add-ons have been shot down in various cases by various developers; think (again) of all the unauthorized SC add-ons which dissapeared rather abruptly. Mentioning the trademark owner does not automatically allow you to use that mark. Just try to call a game 'Aliens™'.
We may now go on arguing into eternity - the fact remains, Flayra is the sole owner of all NS-related copyrights and trademarks; he went to great lengths with securing those. The chances of an amateur team that's quite obviously basing their work on his without of obtaining permission would - all grey areas considered - in no case be very good in court.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And really , what's this babbling about intellectual property ? As if Flayra needed lawyers to protect His mod... if he's not pleased with a particular SP map pack or addon or whatever the community can flame their authors to hell <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flayra needed lawyers to protect NS in the past, and I doubt he won't need them ever again.
Once again, I do <i>not</i> believe this issue will end in a court order for anyone; personally, I hope to see Flayra give the team an official 'go', because I'm quite frankly quite interested in what they'll manage to come up with.
What I'm trying to show here is that Natural Selection is legally protected. All our dreams of a perfect world with free intellectual and creative property aside, the man needs to eat, and those copyrights and trademarks are pretty much what he invested his last two years in.
Dont assume everyone with a different opinion to you is actually out to get you and oppose you on every level - from tweks defending of what he is doing, it almost sounded like he thought Nem was threatening legal action.
We're all on the same side here lads (unless you play cs lol j/k <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->). I for one would love to see an NS single player, just as much as Nem and Tweks wish to.
Now I'm no law student but I was under the impression that plots were very much under copyright and what not protection. Unless you declare your work some sort of "parody" I do believe the original owners of the plot have the right to decide where it goes.
<span style='color:white'>[edit]</span>Oh and my story is centered around a mutant Kharaa and local police of a Colony. Right now it's militia group but it gets a lot juicier. Like I said - No forced tie ins. Just a small side story. <span style='color:white'>[/edit]
Please avoid doubleposting.</span>
*g*
but now serious.
I think everyone knows that no one wants to steal something from flayra, and as i said, flayra has just to say one word and we stop, its that easy.
And now stop all that, its senseless, just continue the work and wait that flayra sais something. I cannot imagine that he has something against a well done SP addon. (well, i dont know how the other mappers in the team map, but well.. we will see)
I think (?) the distinction that needs to be defined here is what constitutes a modification and what constitutes an entirely separate game. Theoretically here, using a custom model could be considered creating a whole different game (compatable with natural selection in every way) and stealing all the rest of the artwork. Have the courts ever had to deal with a case like this? Unless the DMCA has changed this, I would think that you can modify the software you yourself are using any way you want.
I would assume automatically that if you create a piece of software that doesn't require NS to play but uses some of the media it would immediately be a violation. But what if the software you are distributing requires NS to play, and you aren't distributing any of NS's media with your software? This would just be a plugin, and I don't think that companies can sue for plugins that interact with their software, can they?
The story and concepts of the game world would still be a copywrite violation. But if the game doesn't include any of the media, but just remotely references it instead, I think its untouchable in that area. You could still display a model of a skulk in the game, so long as you didn't include the skulk model in your download. Anyone with a legal background want to clarify this?
Not to take Asraniel's wind, but I thought I would try to articulate this the way I would, with an added note: I do not believe that Flayra could legally stop the development if it was just mapping and using the story. Not 100% certain about artwork, but if they <b>Don't</b> distribute they can do what they want.
I'd love to see an NS singleplayer, hell, I just wanta decent bot for NS and i'll be happy! But an SP version would allow for a variety of new locations! You woudnt have to have the three hives and aliens spawning, tech race that Mp provides, you might have to protect an important location from a massive wave of skulks! It would be the portrayal of the story of NS, but with its own plot.
Wait for it....wait for it.....
Just wondering if you play as only a marine, or alien, or both.
I don't recall giving my permission for this project, but I don't think I would want to shut it down either. If I suddenly have a corporate interest to protect NS (ie, a company invests in me or the project really isn't very good), then I may ask you to rename it or not release it, but I don't forsee that happening. Lastly, it probably would be a smart move to indicate that this is an unofficial add-on for NS, ie, put "unofficial" in the title and place it prominently on the web site so no one is confused. When there is confusion, there are legal problems.
No one wants to get into any legal crap here. Lawyers are expensive and I don't want to spend my time litigating instead of game-making. Just make it obvious that it's not an official part of NS, and be prepared to stop working on it if I suddenly have a legal problem with it, and you'll be fine.
-Charlie