Medpacks Vs Healspray
MMZ_Torak
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
I was recently reading the Medpack vs Heal spray debate on the beta forums and wanted to add my 2¢. As has been previously stated, a feature does not have to directly and immediately affect the win-loss aspect of the game to be unbalanced. The res cost has already been described so I won’t go into that. What my concern is the map advantages the marines gain from med spam. Situations such as: Marines have one hive locked down and the aliens are fighting for the other one. A simple med pack carpet easily wins the second hive for the marines. Healspray, especially early in the game, is a pale comparison to med spam. Med packs work instantly, and are more readily available to the marine team and multiple marines than Healspray from a non-adrenaline gorge. The gorge also has to be on the front line or near it to heal, the com is safe in his little photo booth. This is where I feel the med vs HS spray falls short, especially if the gorge has to heal one of the higher life forms. I am not advocating for the removal of medpacks, I simply think a delay in use (ala max payne) is the best answer.
On a side note, I like HS hurting marines and have never used spit unless it was the only weapon available to me. I don’t understand the sentiment against HS vs marines. It is not terribly useful vs more than 1 marine (unless you have adrenaline) but marines in groups of 2 or more will spank a single gorge. IMHO lone stock marines should not be overly effective vs much more than a couple of stock skulks.
On a side note, I like HS hurting marines and have never used spit unless it was the only weapon available to me. I don’t understand the sentiment against HS vs marines. It is not terribly useful vs more than 1 marine (unless you have adrenaline) but marines in groups of 2 or more will spank a single gorge. IMHO lone stock marines should not be overly effective vs much more than a couple of stock skulks.
Comments
Healspray from 3 gorges can own a whole team of marines... <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
Medpack being dropped frequently can own a whole team of aliens <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Oh well, I don't pretend to understand all the nuances of balancing the game. I just play it
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
As has been previously stated, a feature does not have to directly and immediately affect the win-loss aspect of the game to be unbalanced.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it does. And how can it not 'immediately' effect the win-loss aspect? Does it wait untill a few days after you think you've won a game and then slyly alter the result?
If a feature that you think is 'unbalanced', is not causing one team to win more games than the other, then it isnt unbalanced. It's just a unique racial ability. And if you think otherwise then you might as well start complaining about marines not being able to run up walls, because this is essentially what you're doing. You're making a narrow minded comparison between one feature of the marine team and one feature of the alien team (Medpacks vs. Healspray) assuming that these must be equal or comparable in some way, and then concluding that the game is unbalanced because 2 features are not entirely identical. The reasoning doesn't work.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
On a side note, I like HS hurting marines and have never used spit unless it was the only weapon available to me. I don’t understand the sentiment against HS vs marines. It is not terribly useful vs more than 1 marine
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The complaints about healspray have nothing at all to do with lone gorge vs. lone marine. You would also be a fool to use healspray in a 1on1 with a marine in 2.0, since spit is now considerably more powerful. The reason complaints have been made about healspray is the use of healspray by groups of 4 or more gorges, not 1.
4 gorges with adrenaline, jumping up and down and holding down the fire button to repeatedly healspray eachother is:
a) Practically unkillable by LMG marines
and
b) A whirling ball of death that will automatically attack anything that comes near it
The suggestion was that healspray should be reduced in damage so that a gorge team would require at least one gorge spitting, or some sort of offensive component other than mass health spray. I'm undecided wether the nerf is necessary or not.
For the record, in 2.0 having 4 gorges on a team at once is now quite normal, rather than quite absurd.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
From reading beta it seems as if shotties can counter a gorge gang. As shotties are available from the start of the game I don't think theres a need for a total nerf, perhaps only half damage to marines ?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sarcasam not appreciated.
In my above example, which I have seen on several occasions, the control of a second hive by the marines is not <i>always</i> a loss, but <i>is</i> more often than not. The control of the hive is an immedate effect, that often <i>leads</i> to a loss for aliens. When I refered to an immeadate effect I was refering to things such as those that lead to the nerfing of JP and the much earlier nerfing of sieges.
Yea shotguns do pretty well, thus i'm undecided.
The thing about sending people out with shotguns is, it is an extra expense over what you would normally spend to expand and defend your expansion. With the gorge gang, having 4 people gorge and move in a group *is* the most effective way to expand. Because you are able to pump the resources of 4 players into RTs and defence for those RTs. The excellent combat ability of a gorge group is sort of a bonus ontop of that, which makes it very difficult to go head on against an expanding alien team unless you go all out on early offense (shotties)
The proposed counter is a hive rush. I'm not really sure if health spray needs a nerf as early shotgun rush on the hive may be an adequate way to handle that expansion strategy. But to give an example of alien strength, in a recent test game we started out with 4 people immediately going gorge, and 2 skulks basically scouting and parasiting. The gorges moved across the map attempting to expand as quickly as possible, there were no upgrade chambers dropped just RTs and OCs to cover the RTs. Somewhere around midmap, the gorges ran into 4-5 LMG marines, who were also attempting to expand. The gorges, with a couple of skulks, killed all the marines with no losses, and since the marine base was relatively close, decided to go straight for a base rush. Bounced into the marine base (which had a TF and turrets) dropped OCs, and it was game over about 30 seconds later.
The thing about sending people out with shotguns is, it is an extra expense over what you would normally spend to expand and defend your expansion. With the gorge gang, having 4 people gorge and move in a group *is* the most effective way to expand. Because you are able to pump the resources of 4 players into RTs and defence for those RTs. The excellent combat ability of a gorge group is sort of a bonus ontop of that, which makes it very difficult to go head on against an expanding alien team unless you go all out on early offense (shotties)
The proposed counter is a hive rush. I'm not really sure if health spray needs a nerf as early shotgun rush on the hive may be an adequate way to handle that expansion strategy. But to give an example of alien strength, in a recent test game we started out with 4 people immediately going gorge, and 2 skulks basically scouting and parasiting. The gorges moved across the map attempting to expand as quickly as possible, there were no upgrade chambers dropped just RTs and OCs to cover the RTs. Somewhere around midmap, the gorges ran into 4-5 LMG marines, who were also attempting to expand. The gorges, with a couple of skulks, killed all the marines with no losses, and since the marine base was relatively close, decided to go straight for a base rush. Bounced into the marine base (which had a TF and turrets) dropped OCs, and it was game over about 30 seconds later. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess it's only something more scrims will gave the answer to.
It seems though that it's a case of intelligence. If you know there is a gorge gang goin about you can plan for it and either meet it head on via shotties or rush the hive, again probably with a shottie drop.
If you <i>don't</i> know there's a gorge gang you get caught with your pants around your ankles.
Whilst we're in lerk territory spikes work well as each spike will use a medpack up.
in any case, gorgegang is good against sunday commanders. If i see a gorgegang in my base i build Observatory, decoybeacon in my old base and go rush for their hive trough ducts. Five LMG agains a single undefended hive. Overkill.
Also, there nearly always exists a SET of change that will increase gameplay/atmosphere without making the game unbalanced. Of course nerfing medpacks will unbalance the game. You don't balance it by un-nerfing it - you introduce a counterbalance somewhere else.