2.0 Teamwork/marine Fear
Black_Hawk_VS
Join Date: 2003-03-13 Member: 14478Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-03-13 Member: 14478Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">I hope I am Wrong</div> I am all for team work, that is why I play NS, but I have a fear about 2.0. In 1.04 I am a good scout/builder/support person, and if I have a good team, a okay comm. I know there are alot of people like me. Our one chance is the fact that a skulk is so much weaker than a marine. I typically die 2 times for every skulk I kill. I know I am a bad shot, but I do have my days where an can change it two 2 or 3 skulks per death, but that is rare.
What worries me even more is the fact that the Vets and PTs are having about a 1:1 ratio, or one that is in favor of the aliens. Now this might work for the Vets and PTs, who know how the game is to be played (But even they are having problems getting the marines to win it sounds like), but what about the general public? Many of them are playing not to work as a team, but because they get to shoot aliens, or be aliens. And unfortunately, no matter how much anyone tries or wants, for the most part the only place you will find teamwork is with a clan match or similar.
I am also getting the impression that having one or two marines decied that they are going to do there own thing could easily doom the entire team. I believe this because of the Skulks being tweaked so that a group of skulks will most likely win against an equal group of marines. Since the aliens are more powerful in the begining, you will more than likely seeing the extra person, if there is an odd number, going alien.
Now you run into the problem, lets say there are 15 people at the server, 7 go marine, and 8 go alien (Because the general public likes to take the more powerful side). The standard 1.04 tatic is the early skulk rush right when the game starts. This can really slow down the marines in 1.04 if done right, but the marines should hold (Since usually they have the extra person in 1.04) The comm never gets out of his chair unless the team dies (For the most part, some do help fight the rush) Now 2.0 my be a major change, but it is still NS, and the tactics are not going to change imedately. This means that in that 7v8 game, you have all 8 aliens rushing the marine, one marine is comm, and can not spam meds until they are researched (Unless this has changed and I missed it). Now this leaves 6 marines to fight 8 skulks. By the time the comm can hit the log out button, his team is dead, and he has maybe 4+ skulks waiting (Remember, not everyones aim is at the level of the Vets, and newbies will go marine most likely and regulars will try to go alien I think). This will most likely mean that instead of the average game being 10 - 15 mins like is the goal, the games will be less than a min, or even 30 seconds.
Over all I fear that the required amount of team work (which is very difficult to get on public servers, is not near impossible) plus the strengthened skulk will result in aliens almost always winning. And this will triger a few things if it does happen -- New players will play, lose many times and quit. Normal players will get annoyed with the one sided games and quit. And the one thing that none of us wants.... HACKS. People eventually will start doing anything to start winning as a marine, and some will cheat to do it. Amd anti-cheat programs will only slow, not stop them.
Please rembers, this is just my views, and I could be wrong. We will find out on August when NS 2.0 gets its trial by fire. To be honest I hope I am wrong. Sorry for the long post
What worries me even more is the fact that the Vets and PTs are having about a 1:1 ratio, or one that is in favor of the aliens. Now this might work for the Vets and PTs, who know how the game is to be played (But even they are having problems getting the marines to win it sounds like), but what about the general public? Many of them are playing not to work as a team, but because they get to shoot aliens, or be aliens. And unfortunately, no matter how much anyone tries or wants, for the most part the only place you will find teamwork is with a clan match or similar.
I am also getting the impression that having one or two marines decied that they are going to do there own thing could easily doom the entire team. I believe this because of the Skulks being tweaked so that a group of skulks will most likely win against an equal group of marines. Since the aliens are more powerful in the begining, you will more than likely seeing the extra person, if there is an odd number, going alien.
Now you run into the problem, lets say there are 15 people at the server, 7 go marine, and 8 go alien (Because the general public likes to take the more powerful side). The standard 1.04 tatic is the early skulk rush right when the game starts. This can really slow down the marines in 1.04 if done right, but the marines should hold (Since usually they have the extra person in 1.04) The comm never gets out of his chair unless the team dies (For the most part, some do help fight the rush) Now 2.0 my be a major change, but it is still NS, and the tactics are not going to change imedately. This means that in that 7v8 game, you have all 8 aliens rushing the marine, one marine is comm, and can not spam meds until they are researched (Unless this has changed and I missed it). Now this leaves 6 marines to fight 8 skulks. By the time the comm can hit the log out button, his team is dead, and he has maybe 4+ skulks waiting (Remember, not everyones aim is at the level of the Vets, and newbies will go marine most likely and regulars will try to go alien I think). This will most likely mean that instead of the average game being 10 - 15 mins like is the goal, the games will be less than a min, or even 30 seconds.
Over all I fear that the required amount of team work (which is very difficult to get on public servers, is not near impossible) plus the strengthened skulk will result in aliens almost always winning. And this will triger a few things if it does happen -- New players will play, lose many times and quit. Normal players will get annoyed with the one sided games and quit. And the one thing that none of us wants.... HACKS. People eventually will start doing anything to start winning as a marine, and some will cheat to do it. Amd anti-cheat programs will only slow, not stop them.
Please rembers, this is just my views, and I could be wrong. We will find out on August when NS 2.0 gets its trial by fire. To be honest I hope I am wrong. Sorry for the long post
Comments
I have played through a lot of servers of supposedly "highly skilled" players. To date I havent found a really skilled player. Most vets, or top clanners are averagely skilled. They got an OK aim, some use smart tactics, but none of them really reach the top tier skillwise.
To date no player in NS has reached the status of excellency. Some HAM players are really good (gg shampoo) but regarding marine play, there hasnt be a great marine that I have saw. Until people begin to tweak their sensitivity in console and buy new mouses / mousepads and start tweaking their cfgs, it will be hard for them.
The key is to use this command.
Bring up your console and type Sensitivity.
It will show a number.
Try typing "Sensitiivty (number higher than the number said above)
Just tweak with your sensitivity and other mouse settings. After all, NS is a fps. And the most important factor, even though all that teamwork blah blah blah, is to aim and use your head.
I don't see that as a bad thing, personally. Find servers with real teamwork, and you'll have good games.
I think that to keep the game interesting and challenging, it must evolve. Not every decision or change may sound or feel good in-game but the overall direction is right - to make NS even more teamplay oriented. And probaply NS 2.1 is already in the works <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I also have strong faith in the NS team to keep the game clean by supporting various anti-cheat options and getting rid of exploits/bugs and also by keeping the teams in a rough balance (IMHO hard to balance because both teams are so different).
EDIT:typos away!
I'm all for it, 100%.
Although... I just came from a pretty disappointing day of NS. I server hopped for about 3 hours and I could not find a <i>single</i> team that used teamwork. Zero communication and when I tried to take on a leadership role to organize assaults and pack rushes, <b>absolutely no response</b>.
I hope that the abundance of DMers is because people are bored with v1.04 because what I saw today made a <i>mockery</i> of NS.
One word to describe the pub games I played today: <b>Stalemate</b>
Marines would have a hive locked down and be fully teched up with JPs/HAs/GLs/HMGs.
Aliens would have 2 hives OC'd/DC'd rite up and have Fades and Lerks.
But because people kept taking off, attacking solo or in groups of 2 nobody gained any ground. It was horribly depressing and <i>not</i> the type of epic game we all enjoy. I can't say I didn't try, I thnk I spent more time texting and trying to rally the team then I did playing the game.
My only hope is that the features (RfKs, Stronger Skulks, All Evos etc.) give players no choice but to work together. It has always been my opinion that teamplay games need to <b>"forcefeed"</b> player to teamplay. I wanted to be wrong about NS and the NS pubbing community but I think force may be necessary.
I have some of the same concerns as you Blackhawk but I believe v2.0 sounds like that force. I only hope with all my heart that people will embrace teamwork.
Only time will tell.
<b>Savant</b> from <u>Alien Ownage</u> Thread
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I am finding, in regard to marine/alien balance, is that many marines just don't get it.
-Don't run off alone
-Follow commander orders
-When not commanding don't order others around
If marines don't play as a SOLID TEAM, then they should LOSE EVERY TIME. That is expected behavior and I don't see Flayra changing the game so that people who refuse to play the game the way it was designed to be played can run around the map and own the aliens solo.
<b>***When 2.0 hits the general community you will see some SERIOUS alien ownage across the board. I project that aliens will win 75% or more of games and people will scream that the game is not balanced. However, in time they will realise that the GAME is balanced, it's THEY who are not balanced.***</b>
If you want to run off alone and do your own thing, then join the alien team. When you join the marines it's as a TEAM, not a bunch of individuals that think because they own in FPS that they should own as a marine. NS is not that kind of game. Inidividual skill is NOT as important as team skill is.
So the next time someone spawns as marine and they are thinking how marines always lose, STOP going out alone and START following orders. Back people up when they need it. Think about what is good for the TEAM and not what is good for you. When you can do that, you'll find the game is QUITE balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want to highlight this line because I hope that is the factor that forces players to work together.
EDiT: Good post btw Savant.
Marines are focused primarily on teamwork, with individual skill being a close second.
Assuming these two traits are equal on both teams, the odds of winning should be the same for each side.
I think the reason aliens win the great majority of the time in the beta is because the great majority of beta testers are Vets. Reading the forums, viewing match demos and drawing from my own personal experience, it seems that for Vets the individual skill is great but the teamwork is lacking. And since one team (aliens) derives a greater benefit from personal skill than the other, you see a large number of alien wins. Once NS 2.0 is released and people start getting used to it I think the wins will be pretty even across the board, since both individual skill and teamwork are at an average level on pubs.
The changes to the skulk are mostly there to discourage marine rambos, and make little difference in a skulk rush. Bunnyhopping and bite knockback removal should make no difference to a random pubber, since the average player doesn't really use those to his advantage. Hitbox fixes only help in vents and on ladders. Silent walking only helps in setting up ambushes. The only change left is increased skulk health/armor, and it isn't really that huge. Four extra bullets, meaning your accuracy has to increase a whopping 8% per clip. A 2.0 skulk rush should fail miserably against a marine team that's paying attention, just like in 1.04. The biggest change for marines is that grouping is much more important, and that shouldn't be too hard for people to learn.
A bit of a tangent, but I'm curious how the 6v6 standard for NS matches was established. Creating a 3-man attack squad in a clan match either leaves no one as base guard or only one guy for expansion. Once upon a time the standard for clans was 8v8 (QW Team Fortress). Perhaps experimenting with increased team size would give the marines more flexibility in matches?
I just reread this post and realized how stupid bringing this up is, but I thought that 2.0 was supposed to attract many NS "virgins".
Of course the initial release, which was faced with a larger noob community was better suited for such a thing, so concern over new members of the community may exist simply because of my ridiculus expectations of the new players in 2.0.
Excuse my crappy english grammer, I am very sleepy and impared at the time of my writing this.
Yes it takes alot of teamwork to win as marine and marines have to use there toys wisely. This isnt a deathmatch orientated game those thay play it as such will fail and deserve to. But im not talkin about a ungodly ammount of tw needed to win just basic hold res till com upgrades, try to keep aliens from expanding by locking down hives, then kill hive and repeat as needed if u can. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
tips for coms , use electricity , assign squads , tech up asap, lock down hives, use phase gates, dont spread marine start out keep it close, and biggest change from comm in 1.04 is gulp DROP A TF IN SPAWN AT THE START tfs are cheap turrents only cost 5 res. Mines dont have the trip laser anymore and is a risky base defense. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
2.0 is gonna be tight and those that learn the art of the marine and have a love for teamwork will enjoy it even more. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
Theres something special I feel about marine play. Many say alien play should be Skills > Teamwork, and marine play Teamwork > Skills.
But theres a special feeling of spawning, hopping into the fight, maxing out your ammo, then heading out of base.
Thats the feeling of the rambo that I love. Using teamwork enhances my chances to survive by 30 to 50 %, but sometimes fails because my teammate may disrupt the sneak element, or stand and block my shots.
What I mean is.. no matter what they say about marine play being more focused on teamwork, I just love to take on the other team you know. For example its a great feeling to enter cargo room in ns_tanith, only to be greeted by a plethora of skulks rushing at you from the hive side. If you have the aim, you move around shooting them all down. Its an awesome feeling to know that you are 1 man killing machine. Because every marine costs 0 res, and is capable of great things with the tools they are given. For example I watched that aimbot demo of that guy Frogg recorded. Anyone else that? It was amazing how his lmg and pistol killed all those things. An average marine would have died without killing any. He killed them all... then retardedly died reloading.
Even though in 2.0 it will take more bullets to kill skulks, and aliens will be more powerful individually, there will always be a place for the Rambo. That guy who respawns, maxes his ammo and runs in a path headed to the hive, tearing everything up.
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Being in the chair is hell of a lot of work and requires a steady and calm mind. I can't do it myself, not the way it is now.
A commander gives my group a waypoint, I try to get others with me and I take over from there.
The commander doesn't have time to give out specific orders. I tell my men to get in guard positions while one of us constructs the buildings.
But giving the COMMANDER orders, I agree should not happen. But of course, requests is fine.
i had an opportunity to finally jump into the hot seat during some testing yesterday. It is far improved with some mighty nice hotkeys. If i were to spend some time getting familiar with it i might be able to do it. I am just like you and can't do it myself in 1.04. I just cant multitask like that.its insane and i have major respect for anyone who can command well.
With aliens, the responsibility to talk is wider spread: Here EVERY alien is required to relay important information to his team. The gorge must tell where he's intending on expanding and where he'll need to be undisturbed (read: "Make sure to keep the marines out of here or I'll be gorgeburger!"). The other players will need to report on marine movements ("Four marines near cargo, reloc?", this is also a great help for the gorge, as he can stay out of patrolled areas), marine constructions ("Reloc to cargo!") and whatever else they find. Hivesight is a great aid, but it only gets you so far. So again, the bane of aliens is a lack of communication: RCs go down, the gorge dies, marines secure key positions tightly, jp/hmg follows.
What I'm trying to get at is that you will never see a "perfect play" in a pub. Never. Not even in a pug for crying out loud. To say that a random group of marines should work perfectly together to even have a 50% chance of winning is absurd and unrealistic. It is fine in clan play because its assumed that such players would take advantage of something to the fullest as it was intended by the designer.
I don't want my fun ruined because of 1 player refusing to play as a team.
Then when they die they **** at u for not giving them meds when thier in a middle of a hive with 5 skulks eating them.
You also have to add in the "JP" factor in that as soon as any marine gets a JP u totally lose track of them as they just vanish totally and only talk to u when they need something off u.
The point is that if 2.0 needs more team work then 1.04 were only going to see massive stacking of marines by clans and regs in order to win as marine making the newbs go alien in order to beat them.
We'll look at three general traits:
1. People, in general, like to win. Similarly, people don't like to lose.
2. People tend to not like being in situations they don't know anything about, or, if they are in a situation, tend to like guidance.
3. People do not like to feel useless, or, as this is an entertainment type of thing, bored.
So, when NS 2.0 comes out, I predict we're going to see the following stages:
Stage 1: As the game is publicized, a lot of new players will sign on. Many of them will do some reading first. Many of them won't. Those who do will probably see something suggesting they should play as a marine before trying to play as an alien. Those who don't will still see messages in the ready-room encouraging them to try the same thing. So, given that people are in at least a semi-new situation, many will follow this advice. They will sign up to be soldiers. Unfortunately, considering the origins of these people -- either direct from half-life, or from counter-strike, neither of which do a lot to encourage team-work, they aren't going to be the best at team work. From what we've been hearing, this will mean that they will get slaughtered. Badly. Repeatedly. But.. people don't like to lose. This leads us to stage 2.
Stage 2: The forums will erupt with cries about how the game is unbalanced toward the aliens. Those who don't use the forums will likely switch to alien or will leave entirely. This means that instead of the current situation where the marine door is always full, instead we'll wind up with the alien door always full. In other words, the skulk "inbalance" will be even more pronounced because the marines will often be outnumbered as well. We'll see more attempts at cheating on the marine's side, we'll also see the development of very tight groups of marines -- as these will be the only ones that tend to survive. New players trying out the marines will aggravate the well organized groups and if not shouted off will likely be given base guard duty, and that's it. Unfortunately, people don't like to be bored. I expect this will cause more people to leave or switch to alien. At this point we get to stage 3.
Stage 3: Marine teams, being tight and well organized start winning a reasonable number of their games even though outnumbered because often they're better organized, better practiced, and -- let's face it, up against teams generally made of the people who couldn't take orders or organize effectively. Thus when the marines do win, I expect it will be a brutal win. There will be some calls on the forum to start somehow nerfing whatever team tactics are working best for the marines (the building speed-up, the ability to weld armor, etc.) But at this point, the games will start to balance out again. Some folks will get better at teamwork on the alien side, and this will lead to them being more competent on the marine side, etc.
What this all means though is we should expect a lot of dissatisfied players.
So in stage 1, expect them to complain in game about it being impossible to fight the aliens -- you can ease their pain by agreeing with them, but pointing out that that's only in one on one situations. It might be helpful if good marine players try to take a new player under their wing, use a buddy system if you can. (Never under-estimate what a simple offer of "wanna kick rear with me?" will enable)
In stage 2, everybody should keep an eye out for cheats. Those of you who wind up being comms in the well organized marine teams try to remember that people like to feel useful. Even if you give that new player minor tasks to do, like have him or her run around to the RTs and make sure they're fully fixed up/not being chewed on it will go a long way to encouraging people to stay and become better team players.
Hopefully these things will help us hit stage 3 more quickly and losing fewer people as we go.
Firstly, the readyroom message in cl_autohelp may not be there, in which case you may argue that new players attracted to the mod will go aliens (because "aliens are cool").
All I'm seeing in this thread is a lot of paranoia based on various nefarious assumptions that may or may not be good ones.
I for one will relish the change from 1.04, and that alone will make 2.0 a "promised land" for me. Do not underestimate the public servers. Some of us have very dedicated and good, honest players, who DO balance the teams and DO want a good game, not just the quickest possible win.
Roo
EDIT W000000t 1000th post <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
not much change there on the publics then <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
But as for one marine against groups of skulks, It shouldnt be so easy to kill 5 skulks in 5 seconds as it is now, thats a good improvement even if the skulks are only slightly more armoured in 2.0.
however if as u say 6 marines cannot take care of 8 aliens then there is something wrong.
It only takes two marines to take care of 8 aliens in 1.04.... so even with the tweaks in 2.0 surely 6 marines can take 8 aliens no problem... :/
Roob wins.
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Reading the forums, viewing match demos and drawing from my own personal experience, it seems that for Vets the individual skill is great but the teamwork is lacking.
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Yes well done you've cracked teh misterie! The vets, despite being picked from the top clans in the US, Europe and down under... Despite being organised groups of players who have played together for months at competition level and practice roles and team tactics on a regular basis, are <b>completely lacking in teamwork</b> when compared to <b>6 random guys on a public server</b>. I mean, it's so obvious.
Some people here need to take a step back and have a better look at this game. There are 2 teams, both are controlled by human players. The objectives of each team are the same. You are not playing against a static computer controlled alien team that always performs the same wether it is played by nubs or experienced players. If you worry that the skill level of the marine team will be lower in pubs, comfort yourself in the fact that the skill level of the alien team will also be lower. If you are a sucky marine, console yourself in the fact that you will still have a pretty good chance against a sucky skulk.
If your team works together better than your opponents team, then you have an advantage. It doesn't matter what race you're playing. Competition, one team versus another. And this:
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Aliens are focused primarily on individual skill, with teamwork being a close second.
Marines are focused primarily on teamwork, with individual skill being a close second.
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Is folklore.
If 2 teams of a similarly high level of organisation and individual skill play eachother, and one of the races consistantly wins, that indicates a racial inbalance. Not a lack of teamwork. Running around the map oblivious to what is going on in 2.0 will get you nowhere wether you're an alien or a marine. And new marines who don't know what they're doing will harm your team just as much as the skulk who refuses to be the 4th gorge when you really need to drop a 2nd hive NOW.
Uncarapaced skulks vs. stock marines is a much closer fight than it was in 1.04. Obviously this means skulk rushes will be more potent than they were in 1.04. However, the only time this rush will ever harm the marine team in 1.04 or 2.0 is when the alien team is significantly better than the marine team, or when the marine team is extremely complacent. So yes, matches that are horribly stacked in favour of the aliens, or games where half the marine team has gone to put the kettle on can still be won in the first 30 seconds. With even teams its easy to counter if you put any half-assed effort into stopping it.
And don't mind Savant, he's a little silly but harmless really. Replying to veteran scrimm feedback with comments like "Follow commander orders" is pretty damn funny :)
I remember prior to that post the marines were apparently "Still trying to play the game like it was 1.04". I wonder what it'll be next?
Reading the forums, viewing match demos and drawing from my own personal experience, it seems that for Vets the individual skill is great but the teamwork is lacking.
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The vets, despite being picked from the top clans in the US, Europe and down under... Despite being organised groups of players who have played together for months at competition level and practice roles and team tactics on a regular basis, are <b>completely lacking in teamwork</b> when compared to <b>6 random guys on a public server</b>. I mean, it's so obvious.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>Tactical</i> teamwork my friend, and from what I've seen the average Vet's aim is far superior to his tendency to work well with other marines. In 1.04 matches, marines who are on offense usually go off by themselves until carapace comes into play. But that's fine, since impeccable aim combined with a little bunnyhopping allows them to kill 3+ skulks in a row without breaking a sweat. Perhaps because they are so effective solo is why they seem to rarely adjust their tactics when they do travel in groups.
When I see marine squads of vets die to skulks, it's almost always because they fail to exercise common sense tactics. Four guys shoot at the skulk peeking around the corner, but since nobody's checking the rear two skulks just run up and start chomping. Or maybe three guys all run into a room in a tight little cluster, and nobody thinks to check the right corner. Or maybe the pointman decides to hop back and forth in a hallway once a skulk appears, causing him to catch all his teammates' bullets. In short, the Best of the Best are making all these noobish mistakes that lone skilled skulks can take advantage of.
If one side consistently wins because the other side isn't using their head tactically, that does not suggest a racial imbalance.
That's not my experience of Vet players. Because people like TeoH are used to playing in teams, people like him (I use you as an example, I'm sure that's ok eh TeoH <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) are much more focussed on tactics in squad movement than average joe.
But then again, what do I know?
Maybe the vets in 2.0 are completely different from the clanners I've seen; I hope my description doesn't apply to any of them. And I'm not suggesting that the Vets are incapable of using decent squad tactics, indeed once the current approach is proven ineffective I'm sure they'll be the first ones to adapt.
Like I said before, it's the ease of ramboing that encourages bad group tactics. The reason you see more grouping in some of the better pubs is because you can't count on everyone to have 90% accuracy and thus need to compensate in other ways.
I wasn't trying to suggest that either side is actually imbalanced, just that we should be prepared for a lot of the new players to very quickly get discouraged unless we're aware of what they might be thinking.
Hence my suggestions at the end of the post. I think they're good suggestions anyway, even in 1.04, but they'll be even more important in 2.0 where teamwork has an equal increase in importance.