Open Maps... Why Not?
DEMIURGO
Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17565Members
Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17565Members
Comments
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> _______________________ <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, keep in mind the HL engine is pretty poor at rendering wide open areas, even compared to the other older engines.. ( UT, for example.) The r_speeds go through the roof and the whole thing will tend to become pretty unplayable, even on a decent PC.
I think the game has much more atmosphere when you're in dark, claustrophobic corridors never knowing what's going to jump out from round the next corner.
Maybe... It's quite fun to play occasionally, but could you see that map in an official ns release?
Skulks on skybrushes can easily be prevented by placing a 48 unit thick layer of CLIP over the ceiling.
If someone wants to have a go at making an outdoor map, <i>go ahead</i>. I don't assume people are going to rush out and make an outdoor map like 4 football pitchers stuck side by side. Just bear in mind the mechanics of NS and how it plays, put your brain to the task of working out what will work and what won't, and you should be fine. The main limiting factor is the lack of outdoor textures in the ns.wad, but if someone makes an outdoors map that plays well and looks great then I personally don't see any reason why it shouldn't be official map material.
The only real reason outdoor maps are discouraged is simply because NS is balanced for tighter spaces. But there's nothing stopping people from experimenting, we could be wrong and NS might play great with outdoor areas. If not, then there's absolutely nothing preventing people from making confined outdoor maps. Ideally there should be human structures as well - I think a completely outdoors map could be difficult, and it'd also be pretty pointless with regards to why the TSA are fighting the aliens anyway (since they are doing it to recover expensive ships, outposts, etc.)
I guess the point is, <i>think for yourself</i>. I can assure you there aren't any technical reasons why outdoor maps are discouraged, it's just a matter of gameplay - and gameplay is highly dependant on the maps and <i>you have control of that!!</i> (talking to the mappers of course)
~ DarkATi
Your map looks pretty good though.<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for res nodes on the ground, I find it more plausible than res nodes on random grates and bridges, personally. What if the planet itself has a resource-rich mantle, and the resource "sludge" bubbles to the surface naturally in some areas? In fact, that's why the marines and Kharaa have both sent landing parties to try to colonize the area.
I for one look forward to playing ns_jungle if/when it comes out. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Forbid that the marines might <i>win</i> once.
But yes, I think that outdoor maps would be a little unballanced, e.g. being ns_castlewars.
DarkAti perhaps put it in a large self sufficient biodome, that way you can have a mix of vegitation and marine structures with ease and yet it would still makes sense if done properly. just a suggestion. Have fun.
However, the most prevalent problems are the ones already made, including wall climbing and flight. Although, this could be solved by having a cap on the height of flight.
I don't know about any other things, but needless to say NS would be a completely different game in open maps.
But what about the commander?
According to back story, the ships and outposts all have a command net throughout them. This provides the ability to build, see, etc. For building you could say you let a swarm of nanobots loose, but that is contrary to law in the backstory. As for seeing? A satellite if the view overhead isn't covered would suffice, but if the view is covered there's a problem.
So other than a backstory problem, you could do the map. Technical and gameplay reasons were already discussed.
Q. Marines could jetpack all over open areas. How can the aliens defend themselves?
A. Given that jetpacks are due to be significantly changed in 2.x, marines will not be able to fly forever out of range like in 1.x.
Q. Half-life "dislikes" outdoor maps by slowing down framerates of players.
A. Agreed. However, if a mapper can design the level to not slow down the server and framerates, there is no reason to shun the map simply because it is an outdoor map. Also, other mods have large outdoor maps so this appears to be at least possible.
Q. How can skulks "climb" on the sky? That doesn't make any sense.
A. Agreed. However, again, a creative mapper who comes up with a good solution should not be punished because the map is open. One creative solution proposed was to say the area is really in a bio dome or something similar.
Q. What about lerks? Do they hit an invisible sky ceiling?
A. Either through map design or the assumption that lerks can only fly so far above the ground before becoming disoriented.
Q. What about fades? They could blink across the map!
A. Fades can only blink to areas they can see. With creative landscaping this could be made to minimize the advantage that blinking fades have.
Q. How can the commander's camera's see the battlefield if there is no ceiling?
A. Use your imagination. Hovering cameras or orbiting satellite cameras come to mind.
Q. Where is the commander dropping stuff from if there is no roof?
A. Um that doesn't make any sense; but if you must know, assume phase-gate technology or something.
Q. Doesn't the nano-sludge (which is part of the structure of indoor maps) let the marines work? There's no nano-sludge outside!
A. Again, a creating mapper can come up with a good reason. Say the ground has natural nano-sludge; or perhaps the surrounding structures provide enough sludge to get by.
Q. How are the aliens supposed to rush attack if the marines can see them rushing from a distance and snipe them?
A. "Open map" doesn't have to mean flat ground with a big sky inside a square box. There can be uneven ground, structures, and even plants blocking line of sight. This is all up to the mapper to do - but if done properly works just as well as an indoor map and its walls.
Q. Won't turrets be able to hit skulks from a long way away in open maps?
A. Again, the ground doesn't have to be flat with no obstacles. With proper design, a map can be properly balanced with or without turrets allowing places for the skulk to hide.
Q. How is a skulk supposed to drop down and attack a marine if there is no ceiling? Ambushing is what make the kharra fun.
A. A ceiling is not the only thing a skulk can cling to in wait. Try using a tree, an old scaffold, some rocky outcroppings, or anything else the mapper decides to put there.
Q. Where do the resource nodes come from?
A. Again, the mappers problem. For example, say they were put there by colonists a long time ago.
Q. Where do hives hang from?
A. Mapper's problem. Say a shallow cave or rocky cliff.
Q. Don't open maps make marine structures unfairly open to attacks.
A. Just as much as hives are. Also, remember that "open map" doesn't necessarily mean that the ENTIRE map HAS to be outside.
Q. Aren't outdoor maps against the ns mantra?
A. Traditionally, yes. But there is no reason this cannot change if some good open/outdoor maps are released. The mapper simply needs to come up with a good storyline that explains the situation and puts the hardline ns player at ease.
Q. Flayra said "no" to outdoor maps.
A. Flayra quote: "Who knows, outdoor maps could work great in NS. We haven't tried it due to time constraints. It could happen in the future (no promises of course)."
Q. I only want to play indoor maps! Open maps go against the ns storline and I don't like them.
A. I can't argue with that. You can play on servers that only have indoor maps. Just please don't complain if others want to design open maps or want to play them on their own servers.
Q. This other thing I'm thinking about won't work with open maps!
A. That's the mapper's problem. Please let them worry about it. If the map sucks, nobody will play it. If its good, and enough people play it, it could even make it into an official ns release.
I have yet to see a very good open map but am always looking. Some that I have seen were good starts and I believe could make it into the "official" list if developed more, but I think the stigma against open maps has soured many mappers away from the prospect of these kind of maps. Hopefully, "radical" map design will be made easier with the 2.0 release and a larger community of ns players and mappers open to new ideas.