Siege
briDge
Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17583Members
Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17583Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Horribly unbalanced</div> The siege cannon, in all aspects, is unbalanced in favor of the marines, and it needs severe tweaking. I do not think it should be removed, nor do I think that the only solution is giving the aliens a siege equivalent, but it needs tweaking. The problem is this. The fact that siege has an immense range and the ability to go through walls means that aliens, to secure and hold a hive, must hold a defensive perimeter around all of thier hives WITHOUT the use of buildings, because all alien buildings are prone to siege. Basically what this means is that all hives must be defended at all times by players, not remote buildings that are supposed to be fulfilling the sentry duty. Alien players need to constantly patroll all of the possible siege locations or risk losing everything they built, because the marines can extend their offense to an untouchable area.
I was just playing a game on ns_nothing. As usual, the marines immediately relocated to cargo and thus had plentiful resources throughout the game. However, the alien team got the viaduct hive, quickly expanded to Powersilo, and webbed everything up, putting offensive and defensive chambers everywhere. Thinking we had both hives secured (there was no way in hell a jetpacker could get in, and heavies would give us tons of time to move our fades down to the hive under attack) we went on to wipe out generator. Great. Thats when the fun began. Someone spotted a phase gate near viaduct. The whole team comes racing there, but thanks to the bountiful resources of Cargo, they had instantly gotten a turret factory in the process of upgrading, about 8 turrets, and the whole team was there. They proceeded to siege out viaduct, but we cleaned them out with our fades and put the hive up again. we went back to reclean out generator when again we hear the "structure is under attack" sound. This time from powersilo. There are about 400 locations you can siege powersilo from, so just finding the siege took time. By the time we found it, not only was the powersilo hive down, but there were 8 turrets and three quarters of the marine force protecting it. With level 3 weapons, thats untouchable if they keep up the grenade spam. I then left the game, realizing that a single marine, just by himself, could establish a phase gate, and have the entire team at a sieging location in less than 15 seconds. ANYWHERE on the map. And to prevent that, we would have to have all 10 of our players patrolling the hundreds of possible siege locations constantly, which would make the game never end, or result in the marines simply pooling resources and sending 10 heavy armors at us, in full upgrades.
Siege needs to be reworked. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->
I was just playing a game on ns_nothing. As usual, the marines immediately relocated to cargo and thus had plentiful resources throughout the game. However, the alien team got the viaduct hive, quickly expanded to Powersilo, and webbed everything up, putting offensive and defensive chambers everywhere. Thinking we had both hives secured (there was no way in hell a jetpacker could get in, and heavies would give us tons of time to move our fades down to the hive under attack) we went on to wipe out generator. Great. Thats when the fun began. Someone spotted a phase gate near viaduct. The whole team comes racing there, but thanks to the bountiful resources of Cargo, they had instantly gotten a turret factory in the process of upgrading, about 8 turrets, and the whole team was there. They proceeded to siege out viaduct, but we cleaned them out with our fades and put the hive up again. we went back to reclean out generator when again we hear the "structure is under attack" sound. This time from powersilo. There are about 400 locations you can siege powersilo from, so just finding the siege took time. By the time we found it, not only was the powersilo hive down, but there were 8 turrets and three quarters of the marine force protecting it. With level 3 weapons, thats untouchable if they keep up the grenade spam. I then left the game, realizing that a single marine, just by himself, could establish a phase gate, and have the entire team at a sieging location in less than 15 seconds. ANYWHERE on the map. And to prevent that, we would have to have all 10 of our players patrolling the hundreds of possible siege locations constantly, which would make the game never end, or result in the marines simply pooling resources and sending 10 heavy armors at us, in full upgrades.
Siege needs to be reworked. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
dont forget to drop defense on siegeable spots before u run off and assualt marine spawn.
Buildings as sentries? Umm, your buildings aren't supposed to be the defense. YOU are. You have much to learn, young grasshopper.
Static defenses SLOW enemies down. That's ALL they are for.
Besides, marines would have to build a seige outpost to clear out your buildings, and THEN build another seige outpost close enough to your hive. Your building have already accomplished their job of slowing the enemy down. If during the time it takes them to put up those TWO seige outposts (which are damned expensive) and you still can't stop them? Well then shame on you.
Sieges are fine. The reason your team lost is because none of the aliens wanted to play defense.
"KEEP THAT STICK AWAY FROM THE POOR HORSEY!!!"
*sobs*
"cuz it's dead.. you see.. and uhm. you know... the beating and such" <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
anyhoo, man, it must have been insane for you to play when sieges auto acquired targets <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I commanded in a new version and I was like, how do I target this damn thing? lol
It's expensive and the Turret most likely falls to skulks that knows the ropes.
Besides, always remember:
<!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> > <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->
One regenerating fade is enough to take down any turret farm from the distance.
well, it seems you were fighting marines that don't curl up in a corner once they see a fade. in my opinion, marines siege too little today. it allows you to gt past hive defenses without a sweat and all you need is a amount of res and a few marines that can fight skulks/lerks/fades.
but if those marines didn't siege they'd have JP/HMG rushed which is also lame and if they didn't do that too they'd just sit back and tech up, then do a attack that is likely to fail and you get 3 hives up.
It's expensive and the Turret most likely falls to skulks that knows the ropes.
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with the lower cost of turrents and tfs in 2.0 siege attacks are cheaper and can be pulled off but phase gates and everyone has to be involved. <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo-->
The lesson? Scout around your hives ([brag]I'm proud to say it was me who discovered the tf[/brag]), tell your team that a tf is going up and Sieges will soon follow, and <b>hope that they understand what that means</b>. I've seen my share of sieges that succeed because most of the team couldn't be arsed to do something about it.
I was just playing a game on ns_nothing. As usual, the marines immediately relocated to cargo and thus had plentiful resources throughout the game. However, the alien team got the viaduct hive, quickly expanded to Powersilo, and webbed everything up, putting offensive and defensive chambers everywhere. Thinking we had both hives secured (there was no way in hell a jetpacker could get in, and heavies would give us tons of time to move our fades down to the hive under attack) we went on to wipe out generator. Great. Thats when the fun began. Someone spotted a phase gate near viaduct. The whole team comes racing there, but thanks to the bountiful resources of Cargo, they had instantly gotten a turret factory in the process of upgrading, about 8 turrets, and the whole team was there. They proceeded to siege out viaduct, but we cleaned them out with our fades and put the hive up again. we went back to reclean out generator when again we hear the "structure is under attack" sound. This time from powersilo. There are about 400 locations you can siege powersilo from, so just finding the siege took time. By the time we found it, not only was the powersilo hive down, but there were 8 turrets and three quarters of the marine force protecting it. With level 3 weapons, thats untouchable if they keep up the grenade spam. I then left the game, realizing that a single marine, just by himself, could establish a phase gate, and have the entire team at a sieging location in less than 15 seconds. ANYWHERE on the map. And to prevent that, we would have to have all 10 of our players patrolling the hundreds of possible siege locations constantly, which would make the game never end, or result in the marines simply pooling resources and sending 10 heavy armors at us, in full upgrades.
Siege needs to be reworked. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And despite the time you spent typing this up, you failed to realize the important thing: buildings can't be utterly relied upon all the time.
That is...amazing!! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Mostly because you couldn't building DC healing outposts or do chamber rushes.
With the hive requirements gone for evolutions, I suspect the chamber rush will vanish into the history books. Why spend 100rp spamming OCs when you could just go onos?
That leaves a radius lockdown on healing stations. Unpleasant, but not unbalanced. Personally, I'd like to see Flayra try a build with auto-targetting ASCs (with the new, smaller radius).
IT is far Cheaper, fatser and much more reliable to equip a few marines with gear and send them in on foot then it is to build, wait to up grade, build scan and wait to kill. Even in NS 1.3 they werent all that. Let me clear up what I mean. In NS 1.3 they were a VARY powerful weapon but they werent the Mythological Fist of God that ppl rember them bieng. Even Back then I would gear up marines and send them into a hive before I would siege one, Athough they were good area denial weapons.
The power of the siege lies in the tactical benefit they give to marines when built in the proper positions. If your goal is to take down a hive like Subspace or Generator or Fusion Reactor, do you really want to send LA marines into a room filled with fortifications and aliens? I've seen far too many squads, sometimes outfitted with HA and heavy weapons, get torn to shreds once they enter the lion's den.
Generally, marines are at an advantage at long range and at a disadvantage at short range. Certain environments, such as long hallways and rooms free of cover, allow marines to take out superior numbers of aliens without great risk. So why run in and give up such a significant tactical advantage? Add in turrets, mines, and instant reinforcement from a phase gate, and you see it would require at least a 2:1 alien advantage to eliminate a Mother Interface siege base when attacking from Subspace.
Granted, they aren't without their disadvantages. The cost in res and time is significant, and the marines are vulnerable when first setting up the structures. But in almost any case where the aliens are ready for your assault, I would take sieges over direct attacks.
I was just playing a game on ns_nothing. As usual, the marines immediately relocated to cargo and thus had plentiful resources throughout the game. However, the alien team got the viaduct hive, quickly expanded to Powersilo, and webbed everything up, putting offensive and defensive chambers everywhere. Thinking we had both hives secured (there was no way in hell a jetpacker could get in, and heavies would give us tons of time to move our fades down to the hive under attack) we went on to wipe out generator. Great. Thats when the fun began. Someone spotted a phase gate near viaduct. The whole team comes racing there, but thanks to the bountiful resources of Cargo, they had instantly gotten a turret factory in the process of upgrading, about 8 turrets, and the whole team was there. They proceeded to siege out viaduct, but we cleaned them out with our fades and put the hive up again. we went back to reclean out generator when again we hear the "structure is under attack" sound. This time from powersilo. There are about 400 locations you can siege powersilo from, so just finding the siege took time. By the time we found it, not only was the powersilo hive down, but there were 8 turrets and three quarters of the marine force protecting it. With level 3 weapons, thats untouchable if they keep up the grenade spam. I then left the game, realizing that a single marine, just by himself, could establish a phase gate, and have the entire team at a sieging location in less than 15 seconds. ANYWHERE on the map. And to prevent that, we would have to have all 10 of our players patrolling the hundreds of possible siege locations constantly, which would make the game never end, or result in the marines simply pooling resources and sending 10 heavy armors at us, in full upgrades.
Siege needs to be reworked. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, hello, its SUPPOSED to be balanced towards the marines. Would you like the siege cannon to just hand the Aliens res so its more balanced?
Come on man :-p
1.) Annihilating all the chambers in the hive area. In a long game, hive areas can just be full of chambers and with a decent gorge it can get very messy trying to JP/HMG one. Shooting your way through O chambers takes ammo and gives the aliens much more time to fight back.
2.) Less risky in late games: All you have to do is get some competent marines with HMGs(and HAs if you can afford it) to guard the siege area while the comm pings, rather than sending them right into the hive area with O chambers around and where aliens are constantly regenerating.
3.) Holding the hive area. I'm sure most of you have seen games where marines are fighting against 3 hive aliens with enough overflow to put a hive right back up as soon as you kill it, and the hive defense prevents you from sticking around. If the hive area is covered by sieges there's not a damn thing the gorge can do to put it back up unless his team can kill your turret farm. It's just not feasible to keep a constant marine presence there to make sure they don't rebuild the hive and its defenses. The only way to really keep a hive down when the aliens have lots of overflow is to clear out the entire area and cover it with turrets/sieges.
Sieges aren't unbalanced. If anything they're under-used. If you play on a decent server for any significant length of time you quickly realise that JP\HMG is the preferred tactic.
Sieges are expensive, they're time-consuming to set up, and have to be defended. If the alien structures are positioned properly, the viable siege locations will be covered. If OCs alone could defend hives from everything, including weapons specifically designed to be used against them, don't you think OCs would be too imbalanced? Just <i>think</i> for five minutes...
Alien defenses are there to slow marines down first and kill them second. They're supposed to buy time for the team to arrive and take them out. If your skulks can't detect a siege being set up outside the hive, and deal with the threat, it's time to get new skulks.
Static defenses SLOW enemies down. That's ALL they are for. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
the via hive has at least 4 unique spots to siege from, and powersilo at least 5. When you have 2 young hives in the mid game, with maybe 2 or 3 of these possible sieging locations well defended, you still have a gaping hole in your hive defense because, like I said, the aliens must extend thier defensive perimeter beyond their structures, and maintain it. I am aware that the offensive and defensive chambers aren't going to single handedly thwart a marine attack on a hive. That's not what I meant by sentry. thier purpose is to serve as watchtowers, because of the high mobility of the aliens. The "structure is under attack" and the red blip on hivesight is the offensive tower doing its job, allowing you to get your whole team to the hive under attack and stop the threat before it is on top of the hive.
BUT in the case of siege, because of the MANY viable sieging locations on all maps, when you have 2 fresh hives with not much more than a few buildings for defense, one of those spots is open. And it only takes one of those spots for a lone marine to set up a phase gate, turret factory, and turrets in less than a minute. then its a simple matter of waiting for the turret factory upgrade before the hive is eliminated.
Sieges aren't unbalanced. If anything they're under-used. If you play on a decent server for any significant length of time you quickly realise that JP\HMG is the preferred tactic.
Sieges are expensive, they're time-consuming to set up, and have to be defended. If the alien structures are positioned properly, the viable siege locations will be covered. If OCs alone could defend hives from everything, including weapons specifically designed to be used against them, don't you think OCs would be too imbalanced? Just <i>think</i> for five minutes...
Alien defenses are there to slow marines down first and kill them second. They're supposed to buy time for the team to arrive and take them out. If your skulks can't detect a siege being set up outside the hive, and deal with the threat, it's time to get new skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read the post again please, and keep your idiotic elitist comments to yourself.
*you* are the one who looks like an idiot when you post your **** retorts against flaws that dont even exist in my comment about the balance of siege, not me. If you aren't going to spend the time reading my post, why should I read yours?
Sieges aren't unbalanced. If anything they're under-used. If you play on a decent server for any significant length of time you quickly realise that JP\HMG is the preferred tactic.
Sieges are expensive, they're time-consuming to set up, and have to be defended. If the alien structures are positioned properly, the viable siege locations will be covered. If OCs alone could defend hives from everything, including weapons specifically designed to be used against them, don't you think OCs would be too imbalanced? Just <i>think</i> for five minutes...
Alien defenses are there to slow marines down first and kill them second. They're supposed to buy time for the team to arrive and take them out. If your skulks can't detect a siege being set up outside the hive, and deal with the threat, it's time to get new skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read the post again please, and keep your idiotic elitist comments to yourself.
*you* are the one who looks like an idiot when you post your **** retorts against flaws that dont even exist in my comment about the balance of siege, not me. If you aren't going to spend the time reading my post, why should I read yours? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
pwned.
Siege, Horribly unbalanced
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Posts like this are common, and they're going to be even more common once 2.0 is released. Because people will jump to a conclusion before spending enough time learning, and understanding. Everything from sieges to skulks has been claimed to be too powerful by somebody at some point. The first thing someone finds that is moderately effective, and it will get labelled as a balance issue. Then the next, and the next.
Play the game more.
Nothing left to say, you're inexperienced and you do not yet understand the game. The marines, and even the aliens have strategies and abilities so powerful they make the siege cannon look like the obsolete passive-counter it really is. You just need to play untill you understand them, nothing personal.
But here's a little advice: Go marine, get in the comm chair, and start sieging. Siege away untill your sieging attempts have failed so many times that you understand why sieging is not incredibly powerful, and have glimpsed the other strategies that far surpass it.
Do that for every tactic you run into that you believe is 'overpowered', untill you can consistantly beat some of the best, organised teams in the world with it. When you can do that, then you have an overpowered tactic. Untill then, you'd do best to keep your mouth shut.