So, How Will A 12v12 Game Play Out?
matso
Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<div class="IPBDescription">slower alien tech, but more of it ...</div> With the NS taking up less CPU, larger games will be more feasible than in 1.04. Also, the resource system has been changed, which means the marines are not getting such a huge advantage.
OTOH, all games are tested on 6v6 servers, while I predict that 8-12 players per team will be a far more common pub server size.
From what one can see from a non-testers standpoint, there are a few points that can be made.
1. Fixed resource income per resource tower. This means that if you double the size of the teams, the marines gets the same income, while the per-alien income from RTs is halved.
2. Res per kill. Assuming that everyone lives equally long in a 12v12 as in a 6v6, double the teamsize will double the total income. The per-alien income is not affected, while the marines gets twice the res from kills.
3. Starting income. Aliens start with 25 resources each, while marines start with 100 res, total. So a 12v12 game sees the aliens with 150 extra resources from the start. Of course, only if the whole alien team manages to get started within a minute or two - being late for an alien start is going to suck... HARD. [1]
4. Movement chambers decrease the spawntime for aliens, meaning that finally, aliens can spend resources to spawn faster in larger games .. no, wait... that was removed in the last build for some reason.
5. Early game, the marines have an advantage over non-upgraded skulks.
These are the basic changes. It seems fairly obvious that unless the aliens translate their extra starting resources into some kind of an advantage QUICKLY, their slower tech is going to condemn them to loose against the faster teching marines - basically, the aliens can't afford to stay at lvl 0 alien for any time at all.
Probably the best opening is to quickly drop 3 upgrade chambers AND 3 RT's - that is, going with 6 gorges from the start. The gorge gangs then either aggressivly attacks the marine base (if weakly defended), or uses their healspray to allow the (upgraded) skulks to take out any early weakly defended marine expansion - 6 healspraying gorges and 3 skulks should take down any electrified RT QUITE quickly :-)
The disadvantage is that even with 4 RT's, the per-alien income is going to be about 5 res per minute. You better have a good skulk willing to go gorge to drop the 2nd hive, because none of the original 6 is going to have the res for it.
Of course, having 6 gorges means that there isn't all that many skulks fighting the marines on the rest of the map. That should make for an interresting early game... and the cost of using that many gorges also means the aliens are going to have a tougher midgame, as they will have relativly fewer fighting classes.
Arg... I can't really make up my mind as to which side will have the advantage
Can't wait to actually PLAY the game! :-)
[1] Bw, is it possible to go gorge from the start of the game, drop a chamber, then /retry and get into the game with 25 more resources? Seems like an obvious exploit... unfortunately, the simplest way of stopping it is to increase the gorge gestate time and make the start-with-res timeout the same, meaning that only those aliens that joins really early will have any resources at all.
[2] A possible marine exploit would be to refuse to go marine until the aliens no longer get the extra res. Not likely to be a problem IRL, though.
OTOH, all games are tested on 6v6 servers, while I predict that 8-12 players per team will be a far more common pub server size.
From what one can see from a non-testers standpoint, there are a few points that can be made.
1. Fixed resource income per resource tower. This means that if you double the size of the teams, the marines gets the same income, while the per-alien income from RTs is halved.
2. Res per kill. Assuming that everyone lives equally long in a 12v12 as in a 6v6, double the teamsize will double the total income. The per-alien income is not affected, while the marines gets twice the res from kills.
3. Starting income. Aliens start with 25 resources each, while marines start with 100 res, total. So a 12v12 game sees the aliens with 150 extra resources from the start. Of course, only if the whole alien team manages to get started within a minute or two - being late for an alien start is going to suck... HARD. [1]
4. Movement chambers decrease the spawntime for aliens, meaning that finally, aliens can spend resources to spawn faster in larger games .. no, wait... that was removed in the last build for some reason.
5. Early game, the marines have an advantage over non-upgraded skulks.
These are the basic changes. It seems fairly obvious that unless the aliens translate their extra starting resources into some kind of an advantage QUICKLY, their slower tech is going to condemn them to loose against the faster teching marines - basically, the aliens can't afford to stay at lvl 0 alien for any time at all.
Probably the best opening is to quickly drop 3 upgrade chambers AND 3 RT's - that is, going with 6 gorges from the start. The gorge gangs then either aggressivly attacks the marine base (if weakly defended), or uses their healspray to allow the (upgraded) skulks to take out any early weakly defended marine expansion - 6 healspraying gorges and 3 skulks should take down any electrified RT QUITE quickly :-)
The disadvantage is that even with 4 RT's, the per-alien income is going to be about 5 res per minute. You better have a good skulk willing to go gorge to drop the 2nd hive, because none of the original 6 is going to have the res for it.
Of course, having 6 gorges means that there isn't all that many skulks fighting the marines on the rest of the map. That should make for an interresting early game... and the cost of using that many gorges also means the aliens are going to have a tougher midgame, as they will have relativly fewer fighting classes.
Arg... I can't really make up my mind as to which side will have the advantage
Can't wait to actually PLAY the game! :-)
[1] Bw, is it possible to go gorge from the start of the game, drop a chamber, then /retry and get into the game with 25 more resources? Seems like an obvious exploit... unfortunately, the simplest way of stopping it is to increase the gorge gestate time and make the start-with-res timeout the same, meaning that only those aliens that joins really early will have any resources at all.
[2] A possible marine exploit would be to refuse to go marine until the aliens no longer get the extra res. Not likely to be a problem IRL, though.
Comments
No point speculating? What's these boards for then?
I take it it's not very easy to get large games with PTs and veterans, but it definetly needs to be tested. At least once or twice!
Latest addition: I don't honestly believe they can balance the game for the extremes like 30 or 6 players, but it would be cool if at least something would be done instead of leaving it the way it is with no testing.
REALLY small games, like 4v4 or less, play very wierd. Individual aliens get res very fast, and onos/fades are seen very quickly. But NS isn't really a game that should be played at such small numbers, really.
Whats the deal on the movement chamber increasing spawn time?
**(So thats where the Fists of Ra server went...I was looking for it!!)**
PS: I'm on 56k at my grandma/grandpa's house. Man people, please, <b>think of the 56kr's!!</b> (Plus they dont have a mouse wheel, thats just annoying.)
EDIT:: When can we play 16 vs 16? lol <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
With the NS taking up less CPU, larger games will be more feasible than in 1.04. Also, the resource system has been changed, which means the marines are not getting such a huge advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any chance for less CPU usage CLIENT SIDE down the road? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pwned!!!
anyway, i really want to see a 16 vs 16 play out in 2.0.... THAT would be something!
...
Big, long games kick ****. nuff said. If they ever leave, I'll go too...then maybe comeback after pouting for a day. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
lol - sounds good. How many gorges did the aliens start with?
3 hours, eh? Doesn't sound like the 20 min or less game Flayra aimed for ... well, I for one don't mind :-)
Bw, anyone tested the start-gorge-chamber-retry exploit?
lol - sounds good. How many gorges did the aliens start with?
3 hours, eh? Doesn't sound like the 20 min or less game Flayra aimed for ... well, I for one don't mind :-)
Bw, anyone tested the start-gorge-chamber-retry exploit? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont know how many gorges aliens started with, and last time I checked the chamber exploit works.