Why Can't The Shotgun Be Viable?
Freemantle
Join Date: 2002-06-16 Member: 783Members
Join Date: 2002-06-16 Member: 783Members
<div class="IPBDescription">posting for Humaba's sake</div> Has anyone else noticed the lack of use our friend the shotgun gets? When in the hands of an expert, it can be quite lethal on early lifeforms, as well as fades (assuming you have pistol fastswitch bound). Why can't the shotgun be improved for 2.0, to make upgrading it a late-game viability in an attempt to break the monotony of HMG powertech.
<b>Idea</b>
Increase Shotgun rate-of-fire, but decrease damage-per-pellet. Make it hurt just about as much as it does now, but with more ammunition consumed. (<i>Maybe even make it semi-auto, to allow it to see more play with the neublets on pubs</i>)
Increase damage increase per arms lab upgrade. Make Arms Lab/Shotgun a viable stratagey for taking down low life forms and Fade/Oni when in groups. Allow it to do more damage/per/second than an unupgraded HMG, but obviously consume it's clip at a voracious rate, making it a stratagist's weapon.
A skulk's bite had knockback once, the new acid rocket has given the Fade a "Force:push" power, why can't the shotgun knock over kharra attempting to slash, chomp, suffocate it's weilder and friends? (Obviously, the two ton Onos is exempt).
Just a thought I had to support my second-favorite gun as a solution to powertech HMG monotony.
<b>Idea</b>
Increase Shotgun rate-of-fire, but decrease damage-per-pellet. Make it hurt just about as much as it does now, but with more ammunition consumed. (<i>Maybe even make it semi-auto, to allow it to see more play with the neublets on pubs</i>)
Increase damage increase per arms lab upgrade. Make Arms Lab/Shotgun a viable stratagey for taking down low life forms and Fade/Oni when in groups. Allow it to do more damage/per/second than an unupgraded HMG, but obviously consume it's clip at a voracious rate, making it a stratagist's weapon.
A skulk's bite had knockback once, the new acid rocket has given the Fade a "Force:push" power, why can't the shotgun knock over kharra attempting to slash, chomp, suffocate it's weilder and friends? (Obviously, the two ton Onos is exempt).
Just a thought I had to support my second-favorite gun as a solution to powertech HMG monotony.
Comments
<b>Idea</b>
Increase Shotgun rate-of-fire, but decrease damage-per-pellet. Make it hurt just about as much as it does now, but with more ammunition consumed. (<i>Maybe even make it semi-auto, to allow it to see more play with the neublets on pubs</i>)
Increase damage increase per arms lab upgrade. Make Arms Lab/Shotgun a viable stratagey for taking down low life forms and Fade/Oni when in groups. Allow it to do more damage/per/second than an unupgraded HMG, but obviously consume it's clip at a voracious rate, making it a stratagist's weapon.
A skulk's bite had knockback once, the new acid rocket has given the Fade a "Force:push" power, why can't the shotgun knock over kharra attempting to slash, chomp, suffocate it's weilder and friends? (Obviously, the two ton Onos is exempt).
Just a thought I had to support my second-favorite gun as a solution to powertech HMG monotony. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i would rather take a Shotty over a HMG anyday, yesterday i kileld a fade with 2 shots point blank range, he was opening door and crawling undrneath little did he know a few lmg shtot were put into him and i was right around the corner <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
and from what I've heard 2.0 shotgun is win <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
[EDIT]
You can in 2.0. Its a really big risk, but a shottie rush could win it in 2.0 games if your quick enough. BLITZKRIEG!!
Then why does Mart and others all say that Powertech HMG is so common/set? Why can't you win an early or mid game with shotguns and arms lab upgrades?
[EDIT]
You can in 2.0. Its a really big risk, but a shottie rush could win it in 2.0 games if your quick enough. BLITZKRIEG!! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
omg, not a auto shotty this will ruin the fun and create more nubbage to the poor aliens. the main reason why i like my shotty is becasue its a pump, and it gives the effect of "i have a shotty i can kill you if i hit u in the right spot, ph33r me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> , ats actually almost like a challenge agaisnt a fade 1v1, a TRUE match up of course, lmg u just hold down, bhop and pray, pistol eh same thing, hmg same thing but if he doesnt get close enough u win, and gl.. no comment and the shotty like i said i consider a perfect matchup
Too bad they've actually had their HP increased by five points, and their armor increased to boot. They still can't take a full shotgun blast to the face though. Freemantle's idea is a good one, which is why it has already been implemented in 2.0. Just wait until then.
Too bad they've actually had their HP increased by five points, and their armor increased to boot. They still can't take a full shotgun blast to the face though. Freemantle's idea is a good one, which is why it has already been implemented in 2.0. Just wait until then. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I know those changes are in 2.0. That's why the skulk will probably turned into Kharaa salad with its current abilites.
-The shotgun is cheaper, fires faster, and does more damage.
-The skulk gets 5 hp.
Just think about it.
Too bad they've actually had their HP increased by five points, and their armor increased to boot. They still can't take a full shotgun blast to the face though. Freemantle's idea is a good one, which is why it has already been implemented in 2.0. Just wait until then. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I know those changes are in 2.0. That's why the skulk will probably turned into Kharaa salad with its current abilites.
-The shotgun is cheaper, fires faster, and does more damage.
-The skulk gets 5 hp.
Just think about it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
They already get totally pwned by a shotgun at close range...
ack, alrighty then.
I agree that they didn't need the cut in health... they get pretty well killed by anything if they don't get the jump on the target... and their veiw point doesn't help that any...
I don't need to be told I haven't played 2.0. You don't need to go telling everyone that. I'm using my reasoning and current NS experience to say that I BELIEVE skulks will be underpowered, I don't need to play 2.0 to have some understanding of what it is like. So leave me alone I have the right to share my perspective.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=37647' target='_blank'>I suggested that</a> in the Suggestions and Ideas Forum, so, needless to say, I like it.
I don't need to be told I haven't played 2.0. You don't need to go telling everyone that. I'm using my reasoning and current NS experience to say that I BELIEVE skulks will be underpowered, I don't need to play 2.0 to have some understanding of what it is like. So leave me alone I have the right to share my perspective. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you do need experience in 2.0.
The game is almost entirely different, you are comming close to comparing oranges and apples in terms of changes. I can tell you for a fact that everything you're saying about skulk balance is the exact opposite of the truth. I find it funny that most of Savant's supporters have yet to play 2.0.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The skulk spawns at 75/25. Almost free carapace from the very beginning. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zek, you do realise that armor does not equal carapace right? Carapace = damage absorbsion. The extra armor means nothing without the carapace to go with it in terms of comparison.
In other words, a L0 carapace skulk with 75/25 will die in 11 bullets from a L0 LMG, while a L3 carapace skulk (in 1.04) with 70/30 will die in 16 shots to that same L0 LMG. (in 2.0 a L3 carapace skulk takes 17 L0 LMG shots to kill)
So no, it is NOTHING like free carapace at the beginning. Not even close.
As for the original topic, we weren't seeing shotguns in 2.0 because for a long time weapons didn't drop on death. Since shotties are usually an early game weapon, most COMMs couldn't afford it.
Now with everyone rushing HMG, shotties are useless. An HMG can splatter anything far better than a shottie can, and that is a reason why you don't see shotties very often in 1.04 either.
Why buy silver when you can own gold?
Regards,
Savant
PS: Criminal, these kinds of comments are rude:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it funny that most of Savant's supporters have yet to play 2.0. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Seeing as my name wasn't brought up here, (until you mentioned it) please don't drag me into something I wasn't involved in. It's not polite.
Now with everyone rushing HMG, shotties are useless. An HMG can splatter anything far better than a shottie can, and that is a reason why you don't see shotties very often in 1.04 either.
Why buy silver when you can own gold? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because gold can get mundane when it is in excess. I view Shotguns as more chrome than silver...
My idea, just from a feeling standpoint, is that the Shotgun should slay with righteous vengance. It should be the fun weapon that the neublets whine for. It should be a decent weapon in the hands of a new player, and an exceptional weapon in the hands of a specialist. I don't understand the problem with giving the shotgun knockback/aim-throw effects. There are ons of other things I can think of that might make the shotgun more enjoyable (<i>read: Dual-cone-spread (anti-sensory), web/stomp immunity (I know you never see web in 2.0</i>)
- The fun issue might have been addressed as far as rate of fire increase (i.e. Semi-Auto)
-Shotgun has always owned on lower lifeforms in the hands of an expert. Period.
<b>the point</b>
-The viability issue seems to not have been resolved. As long as over %50 of weapon drops are HMGs. shotguns will never be viable. This needs either a HMG nerf or a shotgun boost. I think making damage upgrade increments at the arms lab bigger for shotgun would help this.
(<i>Fake numbrs follow</i>)
L0LMG 11 damage Upgrade:0 Weapon:0 Rating: N/A
L1LMG 13 damage Upgrade:25 Weapon:0 Rating: 26
L2LMG 15 damage Upgrade:40 Weapon:0 Rating: 18.75
L3LMG 16 damage Upgrade:55 Weapon:0 Rating: 14.54
L0HMG 18 damage Upgrade:0 Weapon:20 Rating: 135
L1HMG 20 damage Upgrade:25 Weapon:20 Rating: 66
L2HMG 22 damage Upgrade:40 Weapon:20 Rating: 55
L3HMG 25 damage Upgrade:55 Weapon:20 Rating: 50
L0Shotgun 10 damage (per pellet) Upgrade:0 Weapon:10 Rating: 100
L1Shotgun 14 damage (per pellet) Upgrade:25 Weapon:10 Rating: 40
L2 Shotgun 17 damage (per pellet) Upgrade:45 Weapon:10 Rating: 30
L3 Shotgun 20 damage (per pellet) Upgrade:55 Weapon:10 Rating: 30.3
The ratings reflect clip damage/total invested resources. As you can see, the shotgun falls squarely between the HMG and LMG, meaning it has not lost it's place in the middle-tech tree, but the longer incremented damage increse per upgrade gives it that sorely lacking punch. A level three shotgun would do 200 damage instantaneously, and 2000 damage per clip, in comparason to a level zero HMG doing 18 damage instantaneiously and 2700 per clip. The strategic reloading would give the shotgun a future with skilled players.
Just more ranting from an old fogey. Well, not really old, but fogey none-the-less.
Then why does Mart and others all say that Powertech HMG is so common/set? Why can't you win an early or mid game with shotguns and arms lab upgrades? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably because they dont play, or they dont play with those of us who abuse shotguns? I'd say the former because I play alot and I drop shotguns every game, usually even more shotguns than HMGs. Assuming that a group of upgraded light armor marines could win the game with ANY weapon, the shotgun would be one of them, but its hard enough winning with HA/JP, the chances of you winning the game with LA marines are slim to none.
Btw, the real numbers for shotgun are:
LVL 0 - 17dmg per bullet, 10 bullets (170 per shot if every bullet hits)
LVL 1 - 18dmg per bullet, 10 bullets (180 per shot if every bullet hits)
LVL 2 - 20dmg per bullet, 10 bullets (200 per shot if every bullet hits)
LVL 3 - 22dmg per bullet, 10 bullets (220 per shot if every bullet hits)
Arms lab does +1 +2 +2 and that affects each shotgun bullet =]
So as you can see 3-4 good shotgun blasts right into an onos will kill him, the tricky part is getting close, and thats where the jetpack comes in my friend.
The game is almost entirely different, you are comming close to comparing oranges and apples in terms of changes. I can tell you for a fact that everything you're saying about skulk balance is the exact opposite of the truth. I find it funny that most of Savant's supporters have yet to play 2.0. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Despite your playtester status, I will ignore your comments since you didn't elaborate like your good peers.
My point exactly. I see what Hambone is saying, and I will tend to take his word for it seeing as he has played 2.0. I was just wondering if somthing <i>could</i> be done to the Shotgun to give it a specialty area. Does it not seem a little odd that the HMG is greater than all other weapons in all catagories? The new piercing damage change may improve shotgun popularity, but the shotgun isn't really suited for sustained fighting (i.e. clearing structures).
Would it be terrible if the cone was tightened to allow some viability versus Fade and Oni? Or to just give it a damage bump in upgrades (like +2+3+3 instead of +1+2+2?). Knockback would be nice, but it loses usefulness where it is needed (against Fade and Oni, where the shotgun has trouble hanging).
If anything, just make the shotgun neublet friendly. Let the new commanders <i>think</i> it is viable, even if you don't want to make it a serious option.