moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Jul 30 2003, 01:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Jul 30 2003, 01:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Any religious authority (please note: I said religious authority, not religion) that believes that the content in Bruce Almighty would undermine the faith of their flock is obviously going about reinforcing faith the wrong way. [...] If your reaction to dealing with any percieved threat (in religion, or otherwise) is censorship, then you are not doing your job properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is some merit to this opinion. However, to be logically consistent it requires you to argue in favour of abolishing ALL forms of censorship. Pornography and graphic violence would have to be tolerated in prime-time TV (and this forum, btw), for, after all, citizens should be mature enough to deal with it, and parents should protect their children. If the government perceives this as a threat, it's not doing its job properly.
Are you prepared to embrace this conclusion of your argument? If not, the question WHICH ideas are unbecoming for innocent minds remains a matter of opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not entirely necessary for the argument to be logically consistent. There is a very substantial difference between banning something entirely and limiting when it can be publicly broadcast. I wouldn't object as an outsider if they wanted to limit the vewing of Bruce Almighty to private theaters or only during certain hours of the day. It crosses the line when you seek to deny any access to it whatsoever.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited July 2003
While I personally do not believe in any religion, I do believe they have a purpose. And that is for both population control & to install a moral & ethical fiber.
Humans as a species are not inherantly 'good' or 'evil' (as defined by their culture) and must be trained in such behaviour. With a belief in a higher power which will judge your actions, this serves as a good way to correct the behavious of individuals that may otherwise engage in 'evil' acts.
The only problem is many religions (including Christianity & Islam during their history) have been hijacked & twisted by people with less than honourable intentions to their own ends.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Jul 30 2003, 09:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Jul 30 2003, 09:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, and that is blapshemeing against the holy spirit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Could you offer a quote from the Scripture to support your interpretation?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but Jesus said that "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matt 5:18, with regards to the law as revealed to Moses). This indicates to me that violations of the law are supposed to be punished on Earth as they are in Heaven. The just punishment for murder is death (Exodus 21:12). Why would God demand that murderers are put to death if this is a sin that can be forgiven? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Main reference: Matthew 12:31-32
GNB:<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->31 And so I tell you that people can be forgiven any sin and any evil thing they say; but whoever says evil against the Holy spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who says something against the Son of man can be forgiven; but whoever says something against the Holy Spirit will not be forigven - not now or ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NIV: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->31 And so I tell you every sin and blaspemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 anywon who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be foriven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Jul 30 2003, 09:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Jul 30 2003, 09:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> While I personally do not believe in any religion, I do believe they have a purpose. And that is for both population control & to install a moral & ethical fiber.
Humans as a species are not inherantly 'good' or 'evil' (as defined by their culture) and must be trained in such behaviour. With a belief in a higher power which will judge your actions, this serves as a good way to correct the behavious of individuals that may otherwise engage in 'evil' acts.
The only problem is many religions (including Christianity & Islam during their history) have been hijacked & twisted by people with less than honourable intentions to their own ends.
Discuss. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> agreed, see sig
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--z.x. bogglestiensky+Jul 30 2003, 02:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (z.x. bogglestiensky @ Jul 30 2003, 02:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If there is one thing i ask you to do, is to go out into the country side, find somehwere with a stuning veiw, and ask yourself. is this all just a big cosmic fluke? are we just random mutaions with no purpose whatsoever? If that is the case, you may as well just go home to the people you love, murder them, break down their body into the base chemicals and sell them for £2, cos that is what they are worth.
having read that, how do you feel. angry? Denail? "no way, my gf/bf/mum/wife/daughter is worth way more than £2" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I see this sentiment expressed a lot about non believing people, and if you are used to thinking of the world in terms of a higher plane of existence, it is the first conclusion that you would come to. But there is no reason why belief in a higher plane is necessary for attributing a feeling of worth to things in the physical world. From your statement it sounds like you would be willing to sell your computer for the price of the silicon, metal, and plastic that it is made of which pretty much sum up to dirt <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> . The pattern and arrangement of something can't be devorced from its worth.
Its a difficult task to develop a philosophy based entirely on intrinsic worth. Its a very sobering process with the pitfalls of suicidal nihilism on every side. But it is possible.
When I see a beautiful vista I am probably just as moved as you are, not by the grace of god, but by the propensity for pattern in the universe and the awareness of my own place within it. There's enough mystery and beauty within the physical world alone to last me a lifetime.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Any religious authority (please note: I said religious authority, not religion) that believes that the content in Bruce Almighty would undermine the faith of their flock is obviously going about reinforcing faith the wrong way. [...] If your reaction to dealing with any percieved threat (in religion, or otherwise) is censorship, then you are not doing your job properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is some merit to this opinion. However, to be logically consistent it requires you to argue in favour of abolishing ALL forms of censorship. Pornography and graphic violence would have to be tolerated in prime-time TV (and this forum, btw), for, after all, citizens should be mature enough to deal with it, and parents should protect their children. If the government perceives this as a threat, it's not doing its job properly.
Are you prepared to embrace this conclusion of your argument? If not, the question WHICH ideas are unbecoming for innocent minds remains a matter of opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't believe in censorship as a form of population control. I have nothing against censorship of offensive material to prevent it from warping fragile little minds. To digress momentarily: I believe this power should still rest ultimately with parents, not the government. We've got a great system in Australia by which all media (computer games included) are rated, and the ratings run from G (General; everyone) to R (Restricted; 18+. 18 Is considered adult age here, by the way) which works great when parents use it.
But, as I said, I am against any kind of censorship by an authoritative body designed to control the population, or coerce them into a certain way of thinking. Any kind of supression strongly suggests that the dominant doctrine is flawed, because it indicates that the only way it can retain control is to pretend nothing contradicts or undermines it. A strong doctrine stands up to criticism. Note also that a religion's doctrine is heavily open to interpretation by the relevant religious authority; the underlying core laws and holy texts are to a greater or lesser extent irrelevant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Jul 30 2003, 05:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Jul 30 2003, 05:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm actually a little curious about this. What happens to a person so deviod of any form of reason that they truly and honestly believe themselves to be doing right by these atrocities? Does mental illness of this level prevent you from entering heaven, or does their intent absolve them of the consequences of their action?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Jesus' main point was the re-establishment of the law of Moses. One of the most important laws is: Thou shalt not murder. There is no reason to believe that a gross violation of this law will be forgiven. there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, and that is blapshemeing against the holy spirit. every other sin (yes, even mass murder) can and will be forgiven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Depends what religion you believe in. According to Judaism, God can only forgive sins you commit against Him (and blasphemy is one of them. He is very tolerant <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->). Any sin you commit against your fellow man has to be resolved with them. You can't just pray a bit and evreything is magically forgiven. But, as I said, it depends what religion you believe in; there is no universal truth except the simple fact that everyone is wrong <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->saying that you dont believe in God is just as much a statement of faith as saying you do. if you show me one piece of evidence that God does not exist, i will show you hundreds that say he does. because i am a nice person, i will start off.
Isaac Newton had a friend (we'll call him fred) round for dinner once, and fred noticed a complicated (for those days) model of the solar system on Isaac's desk, and he asked isaac who made it.
"noone"
"what do you mean no-one?
"i mean noone. it just appeared one morning while i was eating some toast with marmalade"
"you mean to tell me that this intricate, complicated model just appeared out of no where? It just couldn't happen."
"And you mean to tell me that this infinitely more complex universe just 'appeared out of nowher' as well? how is it that you can accept this idea, yet you cant believe that a relatively simple model like this did?"
OK, so it doesnt actually prove God exists, that is impossible (to prove). It does, however give a very strong argument.
If there is one thing i ask you to do, is to go out into the country side, find somehwere with a stuning veiw, and ask yourself. is this all just a big cosmic fluke? are we just random mutaions with no purpose whatsoever? If that is the case, you may as well just go home to the people you love, murder them, break down their body into the base chemicals and sell them for ?2, cos that is what they are worth.
having read that, how do you feel. angry? Denail? "no way, my gf/bf/mum/wife/daughter is worth way more than ?2"
Why?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not a very convinving argument. I believe we <i>are</i> a chemical accident, and we need religion to make us feel special, to keep us from butchering each other selfishly, to explain the unexplainable, and as a safety blanket against the big bad world.
But equally, it doesn't matter to me whether I'm a random bundle of chemicals and impulses that has evolved over millenia for no particular reason. I think I exist. I think my loved ones matter to me. It does not matter whether they do or not, or why they do or not. All that matters is that I think I am alive, and that I attach significance to the things and people I hold dear. Emotions are chemicals too, but that doesn't undermine their significance.
...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->While I personally do not believe in any religion, I do believe they have a purpose. And that is for both population control & to install a moral & ethical fiber.
Humans as a species are not inherantly 'good' or 'evil' (as defined by their culture) and must be trained in such behaviour. With a belief in a higher power which will judge your actions, this serves as a good way to correct the behavious of individuals that may otherwise engage in 'evil' acts.
The only problem is many religions (including Christianity & Islam during their history) have been hijacked & twisted by people with less than honourable intentions to their own ends.
Hit the nail on the head exactly. As much as I dislike religion, it's a necessary evil (ha ha ha). The vast majority of people can't tell right from wrong, and need some kind of code to keep themselves in line. Religion is a fiendishly clever way of doing it. And there's the whole safety blanket issue - if you believe in an afterlife, and that everything happens for a reason, you feel safe. If you don't, and believe that terrible things happen because humans, when you get right down to it, are scum, that when you die <i>that's it</i> and that there's nobody listening to you when you desperately wish for something you probably don't deserve ("God, I need a JP\HMG now! OMG n00b!!!") the world is a very bleak, scary place. Not everyone can deal with that.
The best way to think of religion or of faith in general, is as a discipline a person decides to live their life by. All religions demand some form of discipline from their followers, wether that takes the form of "do unto others..." or simply wearing a funny shaped hat and not eating cheez whiz. Since most religions have very old origins, these disciplines are passed down between believers in the form of stories or texts.
The concept of imposing discipline upon yourself is not distinct to religion and can be seen in many aspects of life. As a form of self improvement, many people benefit from a discipline. Disciplining yourself for your personal benefit is arguably a very good idea, but problems arise in religious disciplines when the details of a discipline are interpreted or created by people in power for their own benefit. Or when people are forced into a discipline through fear, or group pressure.
A common theme in all religions is the concept of 'heaven and hell' or some other form of punishment/reward for following the discipline. This aspect of religion is a very persuasive way of attaining new followers, and as well as enlarging the ranks of an organised religion, can also be used as a way of controlling them, through fear. When followers make up a large proportion of a community, they also have the power to assimilate any other people in the area through group pressure. Which is why we can see singular religions dominating certain areas of the world (Less prominent now, but look back a few hundred years).
Throughout history religion has been used to control the masses both locally, and on a country-wide scale when intertwined with government. Many religions have even adopted customs and practices that were originally used to control communities. You will find that many religions empower certain people above the average John Smith believer: priests, preachers, religious figureheads. In earlier times these people possesed great power as the only people either allowed to, or capable of, reading/interpreting the discipline of their religion. As such they laid down the rules for other believers and were rarely questioned.
This is religion used for control, through the fear of what may happen if you oppose the will of an all powerful deity. Or simply the fear of what may happen if you oppose an unquestionable religious figure head who has control over the majority of the community.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Suppose i said that i saw a UFO last night. suppose also that where i live, it is illegal to talk about ufos, and the punishment is death. suppose also that lots of other people came forward reporting that they too had seen a ufo. at our trial, we are given one last chance to deny the ufo else we will be killed, yet we still say we saw a ufo. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Suppose that they had been informed that by denying the existence of the UFO they would incur the wrath of an all powerful UFO deity which would sentence them to an eternity of pain and suffering after they die. Rather than the eternal paradise they would be rewarded with should they believe in the UFO. Also suppose this was 2000 years go and people were both uneducated, and easily believed in things which today would be considered ridiculous.
It's only in recent times, and only really in western countries that religion has lost its grip on the population. Education, and communication is the cause of this. Now that people are educated enough to read and interpret things for themselves, coupled with much improved communication methods allowing people to share ideas across the globe religion seems to be fading out. My opinion?
Personal faith can potentially improve many people's lives, and believing in something because you need something to believe in / disciplining yourself for your own benefit rather than the benefit of others is completely fine with me. Organised religion however, has always been a tool of manipulation, and the further away we get from the old customs of religious groups the better.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
<!--QuoteBegin--[WoLF]+Jul 29 2003, 03:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WoLF] @ Jul 29 2003, 03:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--xioutlawix+Jul 29 2003, 08:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xioutlawix @ Jul 29 2003, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Killymagee+Jul 29 2003, 02:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Killymagee @ Jul 29 2003, 02:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--343_guilty_spark+Jul 29 2003, 07:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (343_guilty_spark @ Jul 29 2003, 07:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Religion ruins everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And that is why they should ban Religion. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> motion passed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ben 128 <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yah, but if they did that it would be banning someones right to beleive in something. To not have the right to think what you want is simply the other extreme to total religous beleif(fanatisism). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Jul 30 2003, 06:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 30 2003, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Note that this is <i>so</i> close from becoming a 'can of worms' topic. Keep it friendly, and I'll keep it open. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I was wondering <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's not entirely necessary for the argument to be logically consistent. There is a very substantial difference between banning something entirely and limiting when it can be publicly broadcast. I wouldn't object as an outsider if they wanted to limit the vewing of Bruce Almighty to private theaters or only during certain hours of the day. It crosses the line when you seek to deny any access to it whatsoever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's true, and I don't know enough about Malaysian law to determine if this is the case here. Perhaps it is a severe restriction. I know that foreign media regularly characterizes German game censorship as a ban, although it is in fact only a ban on advertisement and an enforced age restriction on distribution. Somehow I doubt, though, that Universal would allow their movie to be shown in some adult theatre. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I do believe they have a purpose. And that is for both population control & to install a moral & ethical fiber.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I find that definition very insufficient. Religion is much more than "opium for the masses". It can be a way, very well the only way, to gain access to universal truths, to locate the first source and final reason of our lives, our law, our society and our universe. It also increases the happiness and lessens the pain for many men and women worldwide.
While philosophy has sought intellectual replacement for this bread, many find its taste to be stale and its dough devoid of the inner light offered by faith. There is no doubt that what was supposed to be Good News has been corrupted and abused by man a thousand times, but that doesn't compromise the original message. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And so I tell you that people can be forgiven any sin and any evil thing they say<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, that's a pretty clear statement. Compassion trumps retribution. I concede the point.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I wasn't wondering, I was amazed. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Jul 30 2003, 06:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Jul 30 2003, 06:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I find that definition very insufficient. Religion is much more than "opium for the masses". It can be a way, very well the only way, to gain access to universal truths, to locate the first source and final reason of our lives, our law, our society and our universe. It also increases the happiness and lessens the pain for many men and women worldwide. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Some would say, that the whole idea of universal truths or life purpose is simply another comfort offered by religion.
You can look for the reason we're all here, but not everyone believes there even is a reason.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some would say, that the whole idea of universal truths or life purpose is simply another comfort offered by religion.
You can look for the reason we're all here, but not everyone believes there even is a reason. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> When the evidence is inconclusive, is it not rational to prefer comfort to futility?
Well, wondering about the "why" is a lot of fun... but the only real truth is that we know absolutely nothing. For practical things, like interacting with the physical world, we don't know that the physical world really exists (The Matrix, anyone?) but as long as the illusion stays consistent it makes no difference.
The problem with religion is that is claims as fact things which can't possibly be proven as fact, and when this is pointed out falls back on "Yes, but that's the whole <i>point</i>! That's why it <i>works</i>!" This by itself is relatively harmless. It's irrational, and I'm not a big fan of the irrational, but I'm quite happy to let people believe what they want to believe (as long as they don't try to enforce their beliefs on other people).
However, while I respect people's right to believe whateve the hell they want, it's amazing what crap people will believe <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Jul 30 2003, 07:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Jul 30 2003, 07:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When the evidence is inconclusive, is it not rational to prefer comfort to futility? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm personally quite comfortable with the fact that my existence may not mean anything, and i may not have some grand purpose in the universe. Calling this 'futility' implies a belief that your actions must benefit the universe or contribute towards some ultimate goal, in order to justify your continued existence. Personally i'm quite happy to live for myself and accept that my actions probably only benefit me - an insignificant speck in the universe.
Some people are not happy with this, hence religion and other beliefs that suggest we are contributing to a grand plan. The reason i brought you up on the original quote was that you mentioned universal truths as if they were a given outside of the context of belief and religion, which they aren't. The idea of universal truths is created and supported only by belief.
<!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Jul 30 2003, 08:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Jul 30 2003, 08:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> While I personally do not believe in any religion, I do believe they have a purpose. And that is for both population control & to install a moral & ethical fiber.
Humans as a species are not inherantly 'good' or 'evil' (as defined by their culture) and must be trained in such behaviour. With a belief in a higher power which will judge your actions, this serves as a good way to correct the behavious of individuals that may otherwise engage in 'evil' acts.
The only problem is many religions (including Christianity & Islam during their history) have been hijacked & twisted by people with less than honourable intentions to their own ends.
Discuss. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd say thats almost it. Even people with honourable intentions have skewed the original intent of the words of God. This is simply because to err is human. Everything we touch with any other desire but true love will become broken. Religion is a lot like a crutch and we are like crippled people.
A crutch helps you to walk and eventually when you are healed you can cast away the crutch and walk on your own. But what a lot of people do with their crutch is decorate it and encrust their crutch with jewels and then say "Ah, what a magnificant crutch". They put it on a pedestal, sit their crippled bodies in front of it and stare at that crutch longingly for the rest of their lives never actually using it to get better. That's why you have these pastors in robes defiling little boys and the like. Ceremonies and tradition are completely irrelevant to the truth of God. The only thing that is true are His words. People ask "What religion is the right one?" They all have God's word in them but they also have all been skewed by humans who are imperfect by nature. That's why you need to find the truth out for yourselves.
There is no "higher power", there is only "real" power and "false" power. God is love. There is no want in love. Love is the absense of want. I think that atheists believe in the same thing that the religious do. But what a lot of people both religious and atheist mistakenly do is see the concept of God as a "being" when really God cannot be bounded by such concepts. Just saying God is confusion to a lot of people because God is not a thing but rather everything and anything. God has no beliefs or wants; only humans do. That's fine that you're walking on your own. Good for you. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm personally quite comfortable with the fact that my existence may not mean anything, and i may not have some grand purpose in the universe. Calling this 'futility' implies a belief that your actions must benefit the universe or contribute towards some ultimate goal, in order to justify your continued existence. Personally i'm quite happy to live for myself and accept that my actions probably only benefit me - an insignificant speck in the universe.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not at all the futility I meant. I mean it the other way around. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
There can be no doubt about my own significance. I agree with Descartes: I think, therefore I am. The problem is the significance of the universe. Keep in mind that Descartes was able to escape the trap of solipsism he had constructed for himself <i>only</i> with an appeal to God's benevolence: God wouldn't betray me with a fake world, i.e. "The Matrix". This is the only viable refutation of solipsism I can accept. And refuting it is inevitable, unless you want to arrive in a world of madness where nobody and nothing you see and feel can be certain to exist.
This is the ontological side of the coin. The other side is ethical, and the dilemma is of equal magnitude: Why is it wrong to murder? If you throw God into the dustbin, this question becomes a nightmare too horrible (and off-topic for this thread <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) to touch. An appeal to God tackles both problems coherently (and gracefully, I might add). <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just saying God is confusion to a lot of people because God is not a thing but rather everything and anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What you describe is pantheism, a belief of rising popularity. Some count it as a form of theism, but I personally wouldn't. God as a conscious, personal being is quite necessary for all concepts grounded in theism.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
I have quite a few beliefs about religion, but none of them really support the existance of a true God. I mean, most religions are so full of holes in their stories and histories i could literally jump through them. The Christian God is supposed to be kind and merciful, but **** him off and he destroys the entire world. yet he is forgiveful? Kind? Come on.
It is all about oppresion, and you can't deny that. it comes down to "Do what i want, you get paradise. Don't and you burn in hell.". You live how He wants, or you burn for all eternity. If that isn't opression, what is? And what exactly is Heaven? We know all about Hell, they're always pretty quick to explain exactly what hell is, but what about heaven? "Paradise". but who's paradise? ours or "His"? Most men's paradise would involve a lot of money, sexy women, and.... i dunno, beating their boss up all day. I'm fairly most of that is not allowed, not to mention the intense boredom of living forever and doing whatever you want whenever you want. You could do everything in 2 days then be bored for ever.
The bible.... I have no problem denying Jesus existed, no problem at all. But how do we know the bible isn't just an old story? An ancient Stephen King writing a kick-**** story? we have no way of finding out. And what about the theory that Jesus was an alien? Laughable by most people, but think about it: Someone is dying from a disease you can't cure, but someone comes and cures them, you think it's magic. If we went back to cavemen times with our modern medicen (sp?), this is almost certainly how it would seem.
I was not baptised. My parents were, and they did not want to be. They do not follow a religion, so they decided that i should have the choice if i wanted to join one or not. So far, i have not wanted to. I respect that Decision, the same as i respect other people's choice to follow a religion. It does not, however, deny me the right to disagree with them in any way i choose.
At the moment, if Christianity is true (or any other religion for that matter), i am going to burn in hell. No doubt about it. What kind of God is that? He has given me no proof at all that he exists. I know he isn't supposed to, but i don't really care. If he doesn't think enough of me to prove he exists, i don't care. However, i don't actively try to be "bad", i just don't think i should mould my life around some old geezers ideals. I like to think that if God is real, he would be the kind of person who you could go out with, ya know? The kind of person you could go to the pub with, have a laugh etc.
Also, the major thing i have with the existance of God, and us: He is, he was, he always will be. He knows everything. If he knew everything, he'd see how Earth Turned out, right? He had to destroy the Earth once, so why would he bother making us all again? He would know EVERYTHING. As soon as he appeared, he would know EVERYTHING. How could he cope with that? He knows what happens Millions of years before it happens. Why would he do anything if he could see the outcome? I actually asked my R.E teacher about this, and she was pretty speachless. She finally came up with "Because he is kind, he would not deny our existance". I said "Then why did he wipe out the entire human race, except an old guy and a few animals, simply because they weren't living how He wanted?" She shut up. There is no answer at all.
By the way, i'm basing all this argument on the limited knowledge of religion i have. Which i admit, is limited. But i don't care, this is what i believe, and i'm sure many people can rip apart my argument piece by piece, so go right ahead. But i still don't care. I'll find out when i die, and by then it will be too late to do anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You could do everything in 2 days then be bored for ever. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats assuming that theres time in the afterlife, or if theres a afterlife at all.
Oh and being bored for ever in the afterlife, if theres no time how longs for ever? You can't judge for ever without time.
what now? im confused... this is probably why teenagers shouldnt engage in philosophical debates <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
hey, teenagers PWNN!`1111`12`1`1@~~¬1
But seriously, i don't really care what the rest of you lot think about that. I have a strange family, i'm a strange person. I have strange beliefs, but how are my beliefs any stranger than those who believe a man/woman/being, that no one has ANY proof of, created the world, universe and Fluffy Dice for cars?
<!--QuoteBegin--X_Stickman+Jul 30 2003, 11:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (X_Stickman @ Jul 30 2003, 11:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You could do everything in 2 days then be bored for ever. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh, how so? Let's say you end up like a ghost, free to go anywhere and do anything you can imagine (I've always envisioned it kind of like free look spectating). Sure, you can see most of the Earth in 2 days without physical limitations on speed and such, but then you have a whole universe left to check out. It goes back to my previous post "if the universe is truly infinite than anything and everything is happening right now, even as you imagine it."
In the end my religion boils down to "Don't worry, be happy, and don't hurt anyone. Oh, and aliens created Terrans."
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Jul 30 2003, 10:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Jul 30 2003, 10:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is the only viable refutation of solipsism I can accept. And refuting it is inevitable, unless you want to arrive in a world of madness where nobody and nothing you see and feel can be certain to exist. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I've taken a different approach to it. I've concluded that neither the significance of the universe or its existence could possibly affect my actions in any way no matter what their true state is. What would you do if we were somehow able to prove conclusively that the universe has absolutely no significance whatsoever? Stop eating? Kill people? I think I'd go on doing exactly what I'm doing, so I feel that type of question ends up as irrelevant. I take the answers to questions of an impossible nature to be axioms in my thought processes, because there is no logical way to find a deeper basis for belief. Most religions do the same thing, except that rather than axiomatically assuming the significance of this plane, they assume that this plane derives its significance through relevance to the axiomatic significance of a higher plane.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is the ontological side of the coin. The other side is ethical, and the dilemma is of equal magnitude: Why is it wrong to murder? If you throw God into the dustbin, this question becomes a nightmare too horrible (and off-topic for this thread <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) to touch. An appeal to God tackles both problems coherently (and gracefully, I might add).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Another approach would just be to assume as axioms a set of rights for every person, or you could use the golden rule in a more explicitly defined form. An appeal to God still requires rules along these lines as axioms, whether its assuming things about the nature of god or a well defined list like the ten commandments.
I don't think it's really any more elegant of an approach, although it is easier to accept.
edit: as this took a long time to compose, the last post i read was killer_olie's comment about the after life pre-edit. i ask you to take this into account when reading this and replying to it.
[long post]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have quite a few beliefs about religion, but none of them really support the existance of a true God. I mean, most religions are so full of holes in their stories and histories i could literally jump through them. The Christian God is supposed to be kind and merciful, but **** him off and he destroys the entire world. yet he is forgiveful? Kind? Come on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
let me try and plug that hole then
yes, God did get angry, but who wouldnt?
if your girlfriend who you love with all your heart and would die for turns her back on you and denys you ever existed, wouldnt you be angry? as a human, i'm pretty certain (after you got over the initial shock) you would forget about her and start over with a new girl.
still with me?
good.
That is what the human race did to God, only it was a thousand times worse, did he start again and create another species? no, he chose the only human who still loved him (noah) and gave him a chance. its like you finding the miniscule part of your gf that still loves you (like her left thumbnail) and rebuilding her. Noah was still human, he still had free will, he could still chose to do right or wrong, but God gave us a second chance, and we messed it up again, and now his patience is about to run out, but he has , in his infinite good ness, thrown us one last life line, Jesus.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is all about oppresion, and you can't deny that. it comes down to "Do what i want, you get paradise. Don't and you burn in hell.". You live how He wants, or you burn for all eternity. If that isn't opression, what is? And what exactly is Heaven? We know all about Hell, they're always pretty quick to explain exactly what hell is, but what about heaven? "Paradise". but who's paradise? ours or "His"? Most men's paradise would involve a lot of money, sexy women, and.... i dunno, beating their boss up all day. I'm fairly most of that is not allowed, not to mention the intense boredom of living forever and doing whatever you want whenever you want. You could do everything in 2 days then be bored for ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He created us, he knows what is best for us. Living his way is for our own benefit. The paradise at the end is just the icing on the cake. It is a paradise better than you or i could imagine. you never run out of fun things to do and every thing is better than the last. Heaven is everything hell isnt. hell is terrible pain, death, torture, and heaven is incredible happiness, life and fun. its not boring. There is one idea of paradise that is all women and sex (i think its muslim), and that is for someone who dies in a jihad, a holy war, and they belive thier eternity is spent with their family and lots of women and sex
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The bible.... I have no problem denying Jesus existed, no problem at all. But how do we know the bible isn't just an old story? An ancient Stephen King writing a kick-**** story? we have no way of finding out. And what about the theory that Jesus was an alien? Laughable by most people, but think about it: Someone is dying from a disease you can't cure, but someone comes and cures them, you think it's magic. If we went back to cavemen times with our modern medicen (sp?), this is almost certainly how it would seem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you are right, how do we know it isnt a story?
famous atheist archaologists have gone dead set on proving the bible wrong, and the evidence they uncovered just support it.
The bible speaks of washing your hands before dealing with pregnant women, an idea that was only implemented in the victorian times.
i can, and will go on if you want me to, but will require a bit of time to research.
you are right, Jesus was not of this world, so, in a sense, yes, he was an alien, but not in the common way of thinking. 100% god and 100% man, and curing the sick wasnt magic, it was a miracle, and it still happens in this day and age. God is not restricted to the bible. A man collapsed in the street and was pronnouced dead by a nurse who was nearby, then he was prayed over and he came alive again. thats not magic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was not baptised. My parents were, and they did not want to be. They do not follow a religion, so they decided that i should have the choice if i wanted to join one or not. So far, i have not wanted to. I respect that Decision, the same as i respect other people's choice to follow a religion. It does not, however, deny me the right to disagree with them in any way i choose.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
tbh, if your parent didnt want to ge baptised, they shouldnt have been baptised. it is a decision made by you alone, and only you can decide if you want to. I have no problem with you deciding not to follow a religion, i will just feel sorry for you on judgement day
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> At the moment, if Christianity is true (or any other religion for that matter), i am going to burn in hell. No doubt about it. What kind of God is that? He has given me no proof at all that he exists. I know he isn't supposed to, but i don't really care. If he doesn't think enough of me to prove he exists, i don't care. However, i don't actively try to be "bad", i just don't think i should mould my life around some old geezers ideals. I like to think that if God is real, he would be the kind of person who you could go out with, ya know? The kind of person you could go to the pub with, have a laugh etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have said this before. Look around you. does it seem like one big cosmic fluke? the universe is one of the strongest peices of evidence for the existence of God. We are the other. We are made in his image. whenever someone helps an old lady across the road, that is God. when someone gives some bread to a starving mad, that is God.
God is the sort of person you can have a laugh with. he is real, more real than you or me. Whenever you are happy, God is happy with you, when you cry, God cries with you, and if you ask him, he will comfort you. When you talk to him, he listens, he is always there, never goes on holiday or falls asleep.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, the major thing i have with the existance of God, and us: He is, he was, he always will be. He knows everything. If he knew everything, he'd see how Earth Turned out, right? He had to destroy the Earth once, so why would he bother making us all again? He would know EVERYTHING. As soon as he appeared, he would know EVERYTHING. How could he cope with that? He knows what happens Millions of years before it happens. Why would he do anything if he could see the outcome? I actually asked my R.E teacher about this, and she was pretty speachless. She finally came up with "Because he is kind, he would not deny our existance". I said "Then why did he wipe out the entire human race, except an old guy and a few animals, simply because they weren't living how He wanted?" She shut up. There is no answer at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ah yes, the riddle of suffering. Aristotle put it as a triangle, with three ideas at the points:
Evil exists, God is omnipotent, God is all loving.
it appears that only two of these can ever be true, never all three.
clearly evil exists, so that means that either God is not omnipotent (cant do anything about it) or he is not all loving (he cant be bothered)
you are right, there is no answer to this riddle. many theodicies have been put ofrward to eplain it, the most common one being the free will theodicy, saying that its our fault, but they all fall short somewhere.
As a beliveer, i accept that as a human, i am resposible for the suffering in this world, and, althoug it is not nice, it is nothing compared to the joy that is to come. God has a much bigger picture than you can imagine, maybe suffering is just a nessecary evil?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> By the way, i'm basing all this argument on the limited knowledge of religion i have. Which i admit, is limited. But i don't care, this is what i believe, and i'm sure many people can rip apart my argument piece by piece, so go right ahead. But i still don't care. I'll find out when i die, and by then it will be too late to do anything<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope you dont feel as if i have ripped your argument apart i have tried to answer your questions in a mature manner backing up my points with explanations. if there is anything you would like me to elaborate on, dont hesitate to ask.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Jul 29 2003, 10:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Jul 29 2003, 10:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You must be new to Internet forums. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Jul 30 2003, 02:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 30 2003, 02:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Note that this is <i>so</i> close from becoming a 'can of worms' topic. Keep it friendly, and I'll keep it open. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You might as well just lock it. There have been several religion vs. religion topics on this board before, and they've all ended up the same way.
Comments
There is some merit to this opinion. However, to be logically consistent it requires you to argue in favour of abolishing ALL forms of censorship. Pornography and graphic violence would have to be tolerated in prime-time TV (and this forum, btw), for, after all, citizens should be mature enough to deal with it, and parents should protect their children. If the government perceives this as a threat, it's not doing its job properly.
Are you prepared to embrace this conclusion of your argument? If not, the question WHICH ideas are unbecoming for innocent minds remains a matter of opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not entirely necessary for the argument to be logically consistent. There is a very substantial difference between banning something entirely and limiting when it can be publicly broadcast. I wouldn't object as an outsider if they wanted to limit the vewing of Bruce Almighty to private theaters or only during certain hours of the day. It crosses the line when you seek to deny any access to it whatsoever.
Humans as a species are not inherantly 'good' or 'evil' (as defined by their culture) and must be trained in such behaviour. With a belief in a higher power which will judge your actions, this serves as a good way to correct the behavious of individuals that may otherwise engage in 'evil' acts.
The only problem is many religions (including Christianity & Islam during their history) have been hijacked & twisted by people with less than honourable intentions to their own ends.
Discuss.
Could you offer a quote from the Scripture to support your interpretation?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but Jesus said that "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matt 5:18, with regards to the law as revealed to Moses). This indicates to me that violations of the law are supposed to be punished on Earth as they are in Heaven. The just punishment for murder is death (Exodus 21:12). Why would God demand that murderers are put to death if this is a sin that can be forgiven? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Main reference: Matthew 12:31-32
GNB:<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->31 And so I tell you that people can be forgiven any sin and any evil thing they say; but whoever says evil against the Holy spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who says something against the Son of man can be forgiven; but whoever says something against the Holy Spirit will not be forigven - not now or ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NIV: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->31 And so I tell you every sin and blaspemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 anywon who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be foriven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
cross referenced to luke 12:10
Humans as a species are not inherantly 'good' or 'evil' (as defined by their culture) and must be trained in such behaviour. With a belief in a higher power which will judge your actions, this serves as a good way to correct the behavious of individuals that may otherwise engage in 'evil' acts.
The only problem is many religions (including Christianity & Islam during their history) have been hijacked & twisted by people with less than honourable intentions to their own ends.
Discuss. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed, see sig
having read that, how do you feel. angry? Denail? "no way, my gf/bf/mum/wife/daughter is worth way more than £2" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see this sentiment expressed a lot about non believing people, and if you are used to thinking of the world in terms of a higher plane of existence, it is the first conclusion that you would come to. But there is no reason why belief in a higher plane is necessary for attributing a feeling of worth to things in the physical world. From your statement it sounds like you would be willing to sell your computer for the price of the silicon, metal, and plastic that it is made of which pretty much sum up to dirt <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> . The pattern and arrangement of something can't be devorced from its worth.
Its a difficult task to develop a philosophy based entirely on intrinsic worth. Its a very sobering process with the pitfalls of suicidal nihilism on every side. But it is possible.
When I see a beautiful vista I am probably just as moved as you are, not by the grace of god, but by the propensity for pattern in the universe and the awareness of my own place within it. There's enough mystery and beauty within the physical world alone to last me a lifetime.
There is some merit to this opinion. However, to be logically consistent it requires you to argue in favour of abolishing ALL forms of censorship. Pornography and graphic violence would have to be tolerated in prime-time TV (and this forum, btw), for, after all, citizens should be mature enough to deal with it, and parents should protect their children. If the government perceives this as a threat, it's not doing its job properly.
Are you prepared to embrace this conclusion of your argument? If not, the question WHICH ideas are unbecoming for innocent minds remains a matter of opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't believe in censorship as a form of population control. I have nothing against censorship of offensive material to prevent it from warping fragile little minds. To digress momentarily: I believe this power should still rest ultimately with parents, not the government. We've got a great system in Australia by which all media (computer games included) are rated, and the ratings run from G (General; everyone) to R (Restricted; 18+. 18 Is considered adult age here, by the way) which works great when parents use it.
But, as I said, I am against any kind of censorship by an authoritative body designed to control the population, or coerce them into a certain way of thinking. Any kind of supression strongly suggests that the dominant doctrine is flawed, because it indicates that the only way it can retain control is to pretend nothing contradicts or undermines it. A strong doctrine stands up to criticism. Note also that a religion's doctrine is heavily open to interpretation by the relevant religious authority; the underlying core laws and holy texts are to a greater or lesser extent irrelevant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Jul 30 2003, 05:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Jul 30 2003, 05:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm actually a little curious about this. What happens to a person so deviod of any form of reason that they truly and honestly believe themselves to be doing right by these atrocities? Does mental illness of this level prevent you from entering heaven, or does their intent absolve them of the consequences of their action?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jesus' main point was the re-establishment of the law of Moses. One of the most important laws is: Thou shalt not murder. There is no reason to believe that a gross violation of this law will be forgiven.
there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, and that is blapshemeing against the holy spirit. every other sin (yes, even mass murder) can and will be forgiven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends what religion you believe in. According to Judaism, God can only forgive sins you commit against Him (and blasphemy is one of them. He is very tolerant <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->). Any sin you commit against your fellow man has to be resolved with them. You can't just pray a bit and evreything is magically forgiven. But, as I said, it depends what religion you believe in; there is no universal truth except the simple fact that everyone is wrong <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->saying that you dont believe in God is just as much a statement of faith as saying you do. if you show me one piece of evidence that God does not exist, i will show you hundreds that say he does. because i am a nice person, i will start off.
Isaac Newton had a friend (we'll call him fred) round for dinner once, and fred noticed a complicated (for those days) model of the solar system on Isaac's desk, and he asked isaac who made it.
"noone"
"what do you mean no-one?
"i mean noone. it just appeared one morning while i was eating some toast with marmalade"
"you mean to tell me that this intricate, complicated model just appeared out of no where? It just couldn't happen."
"And you mean to tell me that this infinitely more complex universe just 'appeared out of nowher' as well? how is it that you can accept this idea, yet you cant believe that a relatively simple model like this did?"
OK, so it doesnt actually prove God exists, that is impossible (to prove). It does, however give a very strong argument.
If there is one thing i ask you to do, is to go out into the country side, find somehwere with a stuning veiw, and ask yourself. is this all just a big cosmic fluke? are we just random mutaions with no purpose whatsoever? If that is the case, you may as well just go home to the people you love, murder them, break down their body into the base chemicals and sell them for ?2, cos that is what they are worth.
having read that, how do you feel. angry? Denail? "no way, my gf/bf/mum/wife/daughter is worth way more than ?2"
Why?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not a very convinving argument. I believe we <i>are</i> a chemical accident, and we need religion to make us feel special, to keep us from butchering each other selfishly, to explain the unexplainable, and as a safety blanket against the big bad world.
But equally, it doesn't matter to me whether I'm a random bundle of chemicals and impulses that has evolved over millenia for no particular reason. I think I exist. I think my loved ones matter to me. It does not matter whether they do or not, or why they do or not. All that matters is that I think I am alive, and that I attach significance to the things and people I hold dear. Emotions are chemicals too, but that doesn't undermine their significance.
...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->While I personally do not believe in any religion, I do believe they have a purpose. And that is for both population control & to install a moral & ethical fiber.
Humans as a species are not inherantly 'good' or 'evil' (as defined by their culture) and must be trained in such behaviour. With a belief in a higher power which will judge your actions, this serves as a good way to correct the behavious of individuals that may otherwise engage in 'evil' acts.
The only problem is many religions (including Christianity & Islam during their history) have been hijacked & twisted by people with less than honourable intentions to their own ends.
Discuss.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hit the nail on the head exactly. As much as I dislike religion, it's a necessary evil (ha ha ha). The vast majority of people can't tell right from wrong, and need some kind of code to keep themselves in line. Religion is a fiendishly clever way of doing it. And there's the whole safety blanket issue - if you believe in an afterlife, and that everything happens for a reason, you feel safe. If you don't, and believe that terrible things happen because humans, when you get right down to it, are scum, that when you die <i>that's it</i> and that there's nobody listening to you when you desperately wish for something you probably don't deserve ("God, I need a JP\HMG now! OMG n00b!!!") the world is a very bleak, scary place. Not everyone can deal with that.
The best way to think of religion or of faith in general, is as a discipline a person decides to live their life by. All religions demand some form of discipline from their followers, wether that takes the form of "do unto others..." or simply wearing a funny shaped hat and not eating cheez whiz. Since most religions have very old origins, these disciplines are passed down between believers in the form of stories or texts.
The concept of imposing discipline upon yourself is not distinct to religion and can be seen in many aspects of life. As a form of self improvement, many people benefit from a discipline. Disciplining yourself for your personal benefit is arguably a very good idea, but problems arise in religious disciplines when the details of a discipline are interpreted or created by people in power for their own benefit. Or when people are forced into a discipline through fear, or group pressure.
A common theme in all religions is the concept of 'heaven and hell' or some other form of punishment/reward for following the discipline. This aspect of religion is a very persuasive way of attaining new followers, and as well as enlarging the ranks of an organised religion, can also be used as a way of controlling them, through fear. When followers make up a large proportion of a community, they also have the power to assimilate any other people in the area through group pressure. Which is why we can see singular religions dominating certain areas of the world (Less prominent now, but look back a few hundred years).
Throughout history religion has been used to control the masses both locally, and on a country-wide scale when intertwined with government. Many religions have even adopted customs and practices that were originally used to control communities. You will find that many religions empower certain people above the average John Smith believer: priests, preachers, religious figureheads. In earlier times these people possesed great power as the only people either allowed to, or capable of, reading/interpreting the discipline of their religion. As such they laid down the rules for other believers and were rarely questioned.
This is religion used for control, through the fear of what may happen if you oppose the will of an all powerful deity. Or simply the fear of what may happen if you oppose an unquestionable religious figure head who has control over the majority of the community.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Suppose i said that i saw a UFO last night. suppose also that where i live, it is illegal to talk about ufos, and the punishment is death. suppose also that lots of other people came forward reporting that they too had seen a ufo. at our trial, we are given one last chance to deny the ufo else we will be killed, yet we still say we saw a ufo.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Suppose that they had been informed that by denying the existence of the UFO they would incur the wrath of an all powerful UFO deity which would sentence them to an eternity of pain and suffering after they die. Rather than the eternal paradise they would be rewarded with should they believe in the UFO. Also suppose this was 2000 years go and people were both uneducated, and easily believed in things which today would be considered ridiculous.
It's only in recent times, and only really in western countries that religion has lost its grip on the population. Education, and communication is the cause of this. Now that people are educated enough to read and interpret things for themselves, coupled with much improved communication methods allowing people to share ideas across the globe religion seems to be fading out. My opinion?
Personal faith can potentially improve many people's lives, and believing in something because you need something to believe in / disciplining yourself for your own benefit rather than the benefit of others is completely fine with me. Organised religion however, has always been a tool of manipulation, and the further away we get from the old customs of religious groups the better.
And that is why they should ban Religion. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
motion passed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ben 128 <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yah, but if they did that it would be banning someones right to beleive in something. To not have the right to think what you want is simply the other extreme to total religous beleif(fanatisism).
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He does have a point.
I was wondering <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's true, and I don't know enough about Malaysian law to determine if this is the case here. Perhaps it is a severe restriction. I know that foreign media regularly characterizes German game censorship as a ban, although it is in fact only a ban on advertisement and an enforced age restriction on distribution. Somehow I doubt, though, that Universal would allow their movie to be shown in some adult theatre.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I do believe they have a purpose. And that is for both population control & to install a moral & ethical fiber.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find that definition very insufficient. Religion is much more than "opium for the masses". It can be a way, very well the only way, to gain access to universal truths, to locate the first source and final reason of our lives, our law, our society and our universe. It also increases the happiness and lessens the pain for many men and women worldwide.
While philosophy has sought intellectual replacement for this bread, many find its taste to be stale and its dough devoid of the inner light offered by faith. There is no doubt that what was supposed to be Good News has been corrupted and abused by man a thousand times, but that doesn't compromise the original message.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And so I tell you that people can be forgiven any sin and any evil thing they say<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that's a pretty clear statement. Compassion trumps retribution. I concede the point.
Some would say, that the whole idea of universal truths or life purpose is simply another comfort offered by religion.
You can look for the reason we're all here, but not everyone believes there even is a reason.
You can look for the reason we're all here, but not everyone believes there even is a reason. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When the evidence is inconclusive, is it not rational to prefer comfort to futility?
The problem with religion is that is claims as fact things which can't possibly be proven as fact, and when this is pointed out falls back on "Yes, but that's the whole <i>point</i>! That's why it <i>works</i>!" This by itself is relatively harmless. It's irrational, and I'm not a big fan of the irrational, but I'm quite happy to let people believe what they want to believe (as long as they don't try to enforce their beliefs on other people).
However, while I respect people's right to believe whateve the hell they want, it's amazing what crap people will believe <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm personally quite comfortable with the fact that my existence may not mean anything, and i may not have some grand purpose in the universe. Calling this 'futility' implies a belief that your actions must benefit the universe or contribute towards some ultimate goal, in order to justify your continued existence. Personally i'm quite happy to live for myself and accept that my actions probably only benefit me - an insignificant speck in the universe.
Some people are not happy with this, hence religion and other beliefs that suggest we are contributing to a grand plan. The reason i brought you up on the original quote was that you mentioned universal truths as if they were a given outside of the context of belief and religion, which they aren't. The idea of universal truths is created and supported only by belief.
Humans as a species are not inherantly 'good' or 'evil' (as defined by their culture) and must be trained in such behaviour. With a belief in a higher power which will judge your actions, this serves as a good way to correct the behavious of individuals that may otherwise engage in 'evil' acts.
The only problem is many religions (including Christianity & Islam during their history) have been hijacked & twisted by people with less than honourable intentions to their own ends.
Discuss. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say thats almost it. Even people with honourable intentions have skewed the original intent of the words of God. This is simply because to err is human. Everything we touch with any other desire but true love will become broken. Religion is a lot like a crutch and we are like crippled people.
A crutch helps you to walk and eventually when you are healed you can cast away the crutch and walk on your own. But what a lot of people do with their crutch is decorate it and encrust their crutch with jewels and then say "Ah, what a magnificant crutch". They put it on a pedestal, sit their crippled bodies in front of it and stare at that crutch longingly for the rest of their lives never actually using it to get better. That's why you have these pastors in robes defiling little boys and the like. Ceremonies and tradition are completely irrelevant to the truth of God. The only thing that is true are His words. People ask "What religion is the right one?" They all have God's word in them but they also have all been skewed by humans who are imperfect by nature. That's why you need to find the truth out for yourselves.
If there is a higher power, so be it. But I personally don't believe in his/her existance, nor do I really care if it wants my belief or not.
I have no need of a crutch. I intend to walk on my own.
That's not at all the futility I meant. I mean it the other way around. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
There can be no doubt about my own significance. I agree with Descartes: I think, therefore I am. The problem is the significance of the universe. Keep in mind that Descartes was able to escape the trap of solipsism he had constructed for himself <i>only</i> with an appeal to God's benevolence: God wouldn't betray me with a fake world, i.e. "The Matrix". This is the only viable refutation of solipsism I can accept. And refuting it is inevitable, unless you want to arrive in a world of madness where nobody and nothing you see and feel can be certain to exist.
This is the ontological side of the coin. The other side is ethical, and the dilemma is of equal magnitude: Why is it wrong to murder? If you throw God into the dustbin, this question becomes a nightmare too horrible (and off-topic for this thread <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) to touch. An appeal to God tackles both problems coherently (and gracefully, I might add).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just saying God is confusion to a lot of people because God is not a thing but rather everything and anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you describe is pantheism, a belief of rising popularity. Some count it as a form of theism, but I personally wouldn't. God as a conscious, personal being is quite necessary for all concepts grounded in theism.
It is all about oppresion, and you can't deny that. it comes down to "Do what i want, you get paradise. Don't and you burn in hell.". You live how He wants, or you burn for all eternity. If that isn't opression, what is? And what exactly is Heaven? We know all about Hell, they're always pretty quick to explain exactly what hell is, but what about heaven? "Paradise". but who's paradise? ours or "His"? Most men's paradise would involve a lot of money, sexy women, and.... i dunno, beating their boss up all day. I'm fairly most of that is not allowed, not to mention the intense boredom of living forever and doing whatever you want whenever you want. You could do everything in 2 days then be bored for ever.
The bible.... I have no problem denying Jesus existed, no problem at all. But how do we know the bible isn't just an old story? An ancient Stephen King writing a kick-**** story? we have no way of finding out. And what about the theory that Jesus was an alien? Laughable by most people, but think about it: Someone is dying from a disease you can't cure, but someone comes and cures them, you think it's magic. If we went back to cavemen times with our modern medicen (sp?), this is almost certainly how it would seem.
I was not baptised. My parents were, and they did not want to be. They do not follow a religion, so they decided that i should have the choice if i wanted to join one or not. So far, i have not wanted to. I respect that Decision, the same as i respect other people's choice to follow a religion. It does not, however, deny me the right to disagree with them in any way i choose.
At the moment, if Christianity is true (or any other religion for that matter), i am going to burn in hell. No doubt about it. What kind of God is that? He has given me no proof at all that he exists. I know he isn't supposed to, but i don't really care. If he doesn't think enough of me to prove he exists, i don't care. However, i don't actively try to be "bad", i just don't think i should mould my life around some old geezers ideals. I like to think that if God is real, he would be the kind of person who you could go out with, ya know? The kind of person you could go to the pub with, have a laugh etc.
Also, the major thing i have with the existance of God, and us: He is, he was, he always will be. He knows everything. If he knew everything, he'd see how Earth Turned out, right? He had to destroy the Earth once, so why would he bother making us all again? He would know EVERYTHING. As soon as he appeared, he would know EVERYTHING. How could he cope with that? He knows what happens Millions of years before it happens. Why would he do anything if he could see the outcome? I actually asked my R.E teacher about this, and she was pretty speachless. She finally came up with "Because he is kind, he would not deny our existance". I said "Then why did he wipe out the entire human race, except an old guy and a few animals, simply because they weren't living how He wanted?" She shut up. There is no answer at all.
By the way, i'm basing all this argument on the limited knowledge of religion i have. Which i admit, is limited. But i don't care, this is what i believe, and i'm sure many people can rip apart my argument piece by piece, so go right ahead. But i still don't care. I'll find out when i die, and by then it will be too late to do anything.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats assuming that theres time in the afterlife, or if theres a afterlife at all.
Oh and being bored for ever in the afterlife, if theres no time how longs for ever? You can't judge for ever without time.
im confused...
this is probably why teenagers shouldnt engage in philosophical debates <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But seriously, i don't really care what the rest of you lot think about that. I have a strange family, i'm a strange person. I have strange beliefs, but how are my beliefs any stranger than those who believe a man/woman/being, that no one has ANY proof of, created the world, universe and Fluffy Dice for cars?
Uh, how so? Let's say you end up like a ghost, free to go anywhere and do anything you can imagine (I've always envisioned it kind of like free look spectating). Sure, you can see most of the Earth in 2 days without physical limitations on speed and such, but then you have a whole universe left to check out. It goes back to my previous post "if the universe is truly infinite than anything and everything is happening right now, even as you imagine it."
In the end my religion boils down to "Don't worry, be happy, and don't hurt anyone. Oh, and aliens created Terrans."
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've taken a different approach to it. I've concluded that neither the significance of the universe or its existence could possibly affect my actions in any way no matter what their true state is. What would you do if we were somehow able to prove conclusively that the universe has absolutely no significance whatsoever? Stop eating? Kill people? I think I'd go on doing exactly what I'm doing, so I feel that type of question ends up as irrelevant. I take the answers to questions of an impossible nature to be axioms in my thought processes, because there is no logical way to find a deeper basis for belief. Most religions do the same thing, except that rather than axiomatically assuming the significance of this plane, they assume that this plane derives its significance through relevance to the axiomatic significance of a higher plane.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is the ontological side of the coin. The other side is ethical, and the dilemma is of equal magnitude: Why is it wrong to murder? If you throw God into the dustbin, this question becomes a nightmare too horrible (and off-topic for this thread <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) to touch. An appeal to God tackles both problems coherently (and gracefully, I might add).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another approach would just be to assume as axioms a set of rights for every person, or you could use the golden rule in a more explicitly defined form. An appeal to God still requires rules along these lines as axioms, whether its assuming things about the nature of god or a well defined list like the ten commandments.
I don't think it's really any more elegant of an approach, although it is easier to accept.
[long post]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have quite a few beliefs about religion, but none of them really support the existance of a true God. I mean, most religions are so full of holes in their stories and histories i could literally jump through them. The Christian God is supposed to be kind and merciful, but **** him off and he destroys the entire world. yet he is forgiveful? Kind? Come on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
let me try and plug that hole then
yes, God did get angry, but who wouldnt?
if your girlfriend who you love with all your heart and would die for turns her back on you and denys you ever existed, wouldnt you be angry? as a human, i'm pretty certain (after you got over the initial shock) you would forget about her and start over with a new girl.
still with me?
good.
That is what the human race did to God, only it was a thousand times worse, did he start again and create another species? no, he chose the only human who still loved him (noah) and gave him a chance. its like you finding the miniscule part of your gf that still loves you (like her left thumbnail) and rebuilding her. Noah was still human, he still had free will, he could still chose to do right or wrong, but God gave us a second chance, and we messed it up again, and now his patience is about to run out, but he has , in his infinite good ness, thrown us one last life line, Jesus.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is all about oppresion, and you can't deny that. it comes down to "Do what i want, you get paradise. Don't and you burn in hell.". You live how He wants, or you burn for all eternity. If that isn't opression, what is? And what exactly is Heaven? We know all about Hell, they're always pretty quick to explain exactly what hell is, but what about heaven? "Paradise". but who's paradise? ours or "His"? Most men's paradise would involve a lot of money, sexy women, and.... i dunno, beating their boss up all day. I'm fairly most of that is not allowed, not to mention the intense boredom of living forever and doing whatever you want whenever you want. You could do everything in 2 days then be bored for ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He created us, he knows what is best for us. Living his way is for our own benefit. The paradise at the end is just the icing on the cake. It is a paradise better than you or i could imagine. you never run out of fun things to do and every thing is better than the last.
Heaven is everything hell isnt. hell is terrible pain, death, torture, and heaven is incredible happiness, life and fun. its not boring.
There is one idea of paradise that is all women and sex (i think its muslim), and that is for someone who dies in a jihad, a holy war, and they belive thier eternity is spent with their family and lots of women and sex
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The bible.... I have no problem denying Jesus existed, no problem at all. But how do we know the bible isn't just an old story? An ancient Stephen King writing a kick-**** story? we have no way of finding out. And what about the theory that Jesus was an alien? Laughable by most people, but think about it: Someone is dying from a disease you can't cure, but someone comes and cures them, you think it's magic. If we went back to cavemen times with our modern medicen (sp?), this is almost certainly how it would seem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you are right, how do we know it isnt a story?
famous atheist archaologists have gone dead set on proving the bible wrong, and the evidence they uncovered just support it.
The bible speaks of washing your hands before dealing with pregnant women, an idea that was only implemented in the victorian times.
i can, and will go on if you want me to, but will require a bit of time to research.
you are right, Jesus was not of this world, so, in a sense, yes, he was an alien, but not in the common way of thinking. 100% god and 100% man, and curing the sick wasnt magic, it was a miracle, and it still happens in this day and age. God is not restricted to the bible. A man collapsed in the street and was pronnouced dead by a nurse who was nearby, then he was prayed over and he came alive again. thats not magic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was not baptised. My parents were, and they did not want to be. They do not follow a religion, so they decided that i should have the choice if i wanted to join one or not. So far, i have not wanted to. I respect that Decision, the same as i respect other people's choice to follow a religion. It does not, however, deny me the right to disagree with them in any way i choose.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
tbh, if your parent didnt want to ge baptised, they shouldnt have been baptised. it is a decision made by you alone, and only you can decide if you want to. I have no problem with you deciding not to follow a religion, i will just feel sorry for you on judgement day
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> At the moment, if Christianity is true (or any other religion for that matter), i am going to burn in hell. No doubt about it. What kind of God is that? He has given me no proof at all that he exists. I know he isn't supposed to, but i don't really care. If he doesn't think enough of me to prove he exists, i don't care. However, i don't actively try to be "bad", i just don't think i should mould my life around some old geezers ideals. I like to think that if God is real, he would be the kind of person who you could go out with, ya know? The kind of person you could go to the pub with, have a laugh etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have said this before. Look around you. does it seem like one big cosmic fluke? the universe is one of the strongest peices of evidence for the existence of God. We are the other. We are made in his image. whenever someone helps an old lady across the road, that is God. when someone gives some bread to a starving mad, that is God.
God is the sort of person you can have a laugh with. he is real, more real than you or me. Whenever you are happy, God is happy with you, when you cry, God cries with you, and if you ask him, he will comfort you. When you talk to him, he listens, he is always there, never goes on holiday or falls asleep.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, the major thing i have with the existance of God, and us: He is, he was, he always will be. He knows everything. If he knew everything, he'd see how Earth Turned out, right? He had to destroy the Earth once, so why would he bother making us all again? He would know EVERYTHING. As soon as he appeared, he would know EVERYTHING. How could he cope with that? He knows what happens Millions of years before it happens. Why would he do anything if he could see the outcome? I actually asked my R.E teacher about this, and she was pretty speachless. She finally came up with "Because he is kind, he would not deny our existance". I said "Then why did he wipe out the entire human race, except an old guy and a few animals, simply because they weren't living how He wanted?" She shut up. There is no answer at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ah yes, the riddle of suffering. Aristotle put it as a triangle, with three ideas at the points:
Evil exists, God is omnipotent, God is all loving.
it appears that only two of these can ever be true, never all three.
clearly evil exists, so that means that either God is not omnipotent (cant do anything about it) or he is not all loving (he cant be bothered)
you are right, there is no answer to this riddle. many theodicies have been put ofrward to eplain it, the most common one being the free will theodicy, saying that its our fault, but they all fall short somewhere.
As a beliveer, i accept that as a human, i am resposible for the suffering in this world, and, althoug it is not nice, it is nothing compared to the joy that is to come. God has a much bigger picture than you can imagine, maybe suffering is just a nessecary evil?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> By the way, i'm basing all this argument on the limited knowledge of religion i have. Which i admit, is limited. But i don't care, this is what i believe, and i'm sure many people can rip apart my argument piece by piece, so go right ahead. But i still don't care. I'll find out when i die, and by then it will be too late to do anything<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope you dont feel as if i have ripped your argument apart i have tried to answer your questions in a mature manner backing up my points with explanations. if there is anything you would like me to elaborate on, dont hesitate to ask.
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Nope.
You might as well just lock it. There have been several religion vs. religion topics on this board before, and they've all ended up the same way.