Sorry, but you're wrong here - NS is a throughout RTS with a FPS front end. It's always about resource domination, troop movement, and so on, no matter in which perspective. Thus, a RTS.
Also, Red Alert and The Tiberium Conflict aren't exactely state-of the art anymore - check Generals, Warcraft 3, or even Star Craft, and try to win there with only one unit type.
You can't really equal the resource towers with the total resources in this build. If your fellow aliens were foolish enough to run into the farm one at a time, they afforded the marines an easy source of income thanks to the new resource for kills system.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, every RTS does not require mixed troops, for an example, in Red alert I could with a large enough amount of Mammoth tanks complete annihilate the enemy base<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
which is a prime example of Westwoods suckage <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
actually imo once people learn how to use lerks + gorges together effectively there will be less turret farm problems
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
edited August 2003
Well, you cant really compare it, Warcraft, Starcraft, list goes on... is TOTALLY different from NS and shouldnt be compared. Turret farms prolongs the game with up to an hour, I dont see that hour disappear anytime soon, despite what new strategy that may eventually come up. The problem is not just the turret farm alone, it's the turret farm + marines that makes it deadly.
NS is RTS orientated, and the alien team should have 1 type of each class active, to use its speciality (skulk sneakiness, gorge healiness, lerk defendingness, fade swipiness and onos carnageness)
I think Age of Empires 2: Age of Kings is very similar to the RTS mode in NS: Resource domination, lots of upgrades, unit diversity (much more intricate than StarCraft's), exploration (random map dictates this), defensive structures, and siege structures. It even has powerhouse units like the the Elephants that can be countered with quick ranged units.
It is easier to compare NS to StarCraft because of the whole sci-fi setting and how both are very simple, StarCraft more so. But I think it is easier for an experienced AoK player to be commander than an experienced StarCraft player (considering the fact that the most used StarCraft strategy is 5 minute rush).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You guys honestly think we all sat on our **** testing 2.0 ..?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, that's the impression I'm starting to get or I wouldn't be manually chaning maps on my server after a 2+ hour stalemate. I just can't believe that NS 2 has so much polish and refinement but the gameplay changes so far, suck IMO. And I think Seikeden is totally correct. Show me one RTS where one team has a tiny fraction of the res of another that survives for more than a few minutes. Its sad but I've manually changed maps more than I've finished on my server because it becomes BORING AND POINTLESS to wage an infinite war against the late game, turret farmed, marine start. And while you special guys who have been playtesting may have found strats that worked for you in beta they are no working in pubs(.) Sure, the game has already been out two days but no miraculous strategy or team work will solve this. This must be corrected in game IMO.
I actually won a game against turret farmers today. The commander felt bad and recycled base! The turrets track SO damn fast that even though I pump umbra all over them, they still are gods. 10 res. What the heck is that? Aliens won a lot in 1.04, did you guys feel bad? The turrets dont make the marines do anything anymore. Today I heard our commander say "Dont worry about engine hive, I got about 9 turrets in there." I think that 2.0 was designed more around the "Elite Veterans and Clan players competitive gaming" Its a RAREITY for me to win on pub alien. Its sorta funny. When the marines get to the point where they are winning the aliens just lay down and die. When the aliens control every res node except marine start, have three hives, it still takes forever to beat them. I've played 3 out of the 20+ games so far with 2.0 that were longer than 2 hours. 1 was 5 hours and ended only to admin intervention.
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Aug 2 2003, 09:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Aug 2 2003, 09:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How do you get rid of turrets? Xenocide, bile bomb, onos rush, fade acid rocket....it all works very well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure do. EXCEPT THE ENTIRE PROBLEM IS THEY CANT GET IN. Look at it in a realism angle instead of the perfect world examples ive seen so far. 12v12. 4 Onos, couple fade, 3 gorges, few lerks and the rest skulk. Onos charge in, while the turrets are being covered in umbra. OOPS cant get to that part because 4 GL spammers just blew up all the onos. or you get this perdiciment. Awesome the onos made it in. Ooops umbra went away too quickly and the 5 HA HMGS tore them to shreds. Do we see a pattern here....?
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Aug 2 2003, 09:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Aug 2 2003, 09:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How do you get rid of turrets? Xenocide, bile bomb, onos rush, fade acid rocket....it all works very well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How do you stop the aliens from getting rid of your turrets?
Two marines with grenade launcher. Maybe one with hmg just in case. Done. Base is gauranteed to never be lost.
I actually enjoy the aliens hour long conquest of the marine spawn. So much team work envolved, and once its done, you get that awesome feeling of success inside.
I can't believe you guys are complaining about marines when the majority of the time, the Kharaa mop the marines all the way to extiction.
I think NS 2.0 has achieved its goal of the team with more team work will win the game.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Aug 2 2003, 09:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 2 2003, 09:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Aug 2 2003, 09:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Aug 2 2003, 09:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How do you get rid of turrets? Xenocide, bile bomb, onos rush, fade acid rocket....it all works very well. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure do. EXCEPT THE ENTIRE PROBLEM IS THEY CANT GET IN. Look at it in a realism angle instead of the perfect world examples ive seen so far. 12v12. 4 Onos, couple fade, 3 gorges, few lerks and the rest skulk. Onos charge in, while the turrets are being covered in umbra. OOPS cant get to that part because 4 GL spammers just blew up all the onos. or you get this perdiciment. Awesome the onos made it in. Ooops umbra went away too quickly and the 5 HA HMGS tore them to shreds. Do we see a pattern here....? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think 4 GL spammers are a perfect world angle as well <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I actually enjoy the aliens hour long conquest of the marine spawn. So much team work envolved<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there was teamwork it wouldn't take an hour would it? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a skulk intent on xenociding? Especially one with upgrades. All they have to do is click the fire button a few seconds before and they explode right when they get to whatever is their target. And GLs aren't a good skulk counter.
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Aug 2 2003, 09:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Aug 2 2003, 09:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And GLs aren't a good skulk counter. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But a welder works excellently.
Anyhow I think the best route to fixing this is to lower grenade damage against aliens (NOT Alien structures). That way the GL is effective offensively and not so much defensively. Some of the (wiser) beta testers already suggested this. The GL is the main thing stopping the gorges from using the Bile Bomb counter to Turrets.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Aug 2 2003, 09:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 2 2003, 09:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Erm... One doesn't umbra the turrets, one umbras the aliens. Otherwise, the turrets can kill your troops before they closed into the cloud. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oops I thought umbra blocked bullets.
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Aug 2 2003, 09:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Aug 2 2003, 09:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a skulk intent on xenociding? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Extremely hard if your HMG has no bullets sorry for double post. It got cloned
Great. I love playing as marines now. You aren´t doomed anymore as the second hive comes up which is the best of all the changes. Now you dont have to pull of a boring 2 hive lockdown to win but instead you just can grab 4 res towers, tech to HA and then pay each hive a visit. The weapons are all great fun to use and get handed out a lot more than in 1.04 and since the aliens seem made of paper its major ownage to be part of a HA assault squad. In 1.04 i always played aliens but now i´ve become an avid marine player.
Aliens: As much as i love the marines in 2.0 i hate the aliens. The alien game has become so boring it stopped me from playing them. The thing i hate the most is the new res system. Everything seems to take forever. In 2.0 you spend most of the time as a skulk and if finally you managed to get some cash to evolve you die to the first enemy squad you encounter. Alien classes are no more fun to play but lets take a look at each one of them:
Skulks: The 2.0 alien i like most. Its faster which is always good and has more hp and armor than in 1.04. They did this one right.
Gorge: I feel useles as a gorge. Sure i can build stuff and get the occasional spit kill but thats it. And i must wait forever to get the cash to build something. Gone are the happy days where i could build WOL´s outside the marine spawn(and even inside) or web a marine and drop a OC and keeping him webbed till it was build only to see him suffer the most humiliating death imaginable. Now i hardly can afford 1 OC and they are so weak when in low numbers that they are useless against anything but 1 la/lmg marine. (On the other hand turrets sometimes give the comm more res from kills then the RT that they are supposed to protect) Bilebomb range is too short to survive an assault on an outpost and web is hive 3 tech and hence rarely seen.
Lerk: Spores are useless against la marines since they just charge and kill you and dont work against HA. Spikes are decent but dont justify the 30 res the lerk costs. Umbra lasts so short i dont use it anymore since my idea of fun isn´t to just support my squadmembers but to get some kills for myself too. But i can´t afford to switch to spikes or the others run out of umbra. Primal scream is great but since its a hive 3 tech you rarely see it cause any decent marine team will lock down 1 hive to be save from acid rockets and webs which are the marines biggest enemys.
Fade: This one stands for drop 50 res out the window. Whats the idea behind the Fade? I like that they moved acid rocket to hive 3 to make it more of a close range fighter class but hes so weak that he dies even when faced against 1 lvl0 marine. Fade are so slow that marines can outrun/jump his claws while firering at him. Blink uses too much energy to be efficient and metabolize is too slow to be of any importance. And blink and metabolize claw positions look the same so its easy to confuse them. Acid rocket is great as always but its a hive 3 tech so its only seen when the marines already lost.
Onos: Please change the name of that one to OhYes. I always am happy to encounter one as a HA/HMG marine since they are soo huge and slow that its impossible to miss them, they drop so fast and i know that now the aliens are short of 100 res muahaha. I fear skulks more than onos because they are fast and small and as HA i get killed more by skulks than by onos. Man even 3 la/lmg marines can drop an onos very fast and they cost 0 res. Stomp is great but if the marines aren´t lined all up nicely you cant gore/devour the stomped one cause the others kill you if you attempt it. So you can just delay a HA Squad with stomp but you dont pose a serious threat. Charge is nice but hive 3 tech.
Summary: As alien you spend most of the time saving the res to evolve to a higher life form only to get killed by the first vanilla marine. As marines you have loads of fun toying around with all the weapons that never got handed out in 1.04, you can kill lots of underpowered aliens giving you a great sense of power *Insert evil laughter* and the times you loose are rare if the com isn´t a total newbie and goes for res and HA.
PS: Dont get me wrong. I love the new 2.0 build even if only because of the marines.
I'm sorry but if you guys are completely incapable of ever pulling off a bile bomb attack with the majority of the alien team working with the gorges, the team simply sucks and probably deserves the loss anyway. There are quite a lot of ways to keep gorges alive. Hint: None of them involve running into the door and emptying your energy bar with biles while the turrets and marines empty their clips into you. Get the other units to distract and kill marines while gorges bile bomb. Get the gorges to heal eachother whenever they take damage, and if there isn't any siege put some D chambers within reach. Please try new things first before you come onto the forums to complain about an imbalance.
There is a simple fact that alien pubbers are going to have to get used to, and that is that aliens have been made more teamwork reliant than they ever were before. Period. You can't expect to go into a base with a single gorge and a single onos and clear out a well established turret farm with marine defenders; that's simply stupid. To overwhelm a large number of marines in their own fortified base you need a large number of aliens, and a large degree of cooperation.
I'm not trying to insult anyone here but your arguments are based purely on simple lack of understanding of the new tactics and strategies that are necessary in 2.0. I don't claim to be the 2.0 expert either, but face it, the game has been out less than 2 days. You have not tried everything, and you don't know what you're talking about. It really does take some guts to call the Vets and PTs incompetent for allowing the game to be released this way; they've been playing it for months and it was balanced for them. You've been playing it for days and it's not balanced for you. Do you see the connection?
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Aug 2 2003, 09:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Aug 2 2003, 09:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm sorry but if you guys are completely incapable of ever pulling off a bile bomb attack with the majority of the alien team working with the gorges, the team simply sucks and probably deserves the loss anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So I guess when I want to win, I play 2.0 marines and not alien on pub servers. I think NOT. Whatever happend to limiting the number of turrets.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
Very pessimistic view on it. For instance, I as Skulk could now take several HAs down and survive (couldnt do that in 1.04 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) Gorges are great in 2.0, they can now go more offensive now that you dont have to worry about losing the game because you die Lerks, I like them, especially spores and spikes makes them an ultimate ranged fighter, 30 res is no biggie Fade, they are more fragile now, but the new blink makes up for that, fades cant take down a squad of marines but they can certainly take a rambo marine, a lone turret farm and incomming at a hive <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Onos, I think you must have missed the countless redemption/devour threads <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Overall, I think they should all have a 1/2 cut in the res cost, but I think that would make them too strong early on
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Aug 2 2003, 09:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Aug 2 2003, 09:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm sorry but if you guys are completely incapable of ever pulling off a bile bomb attack with the majority of the alien team working with the gorges, the team simply sucks and probably deserves the loss anyway. There are quite a lot of ways to keep gorges alive. Hint: None of them involve running into the door and emptying your energy bar with biles while the turrets and marines empty their clips into you. Get the other units to distract and kill marines while gorges bile bomb. Get the gorges to heal eachother whenever they take damage, and if there isn't any siege put some D chambers within reach. Please try new things first before you come onto the forums to complain about an imbalance.
There is a simple fact that alien pubbers are going to have to get used to, and that is that aliens have been made more teamwork reliant than they ever were before. Period. You can't expect to go into a base with a single gorge and a single onos and clear out a well established turret farm with marine defenders; that's simply stupid. To overwhelm a large number of marines in their own fortified base you need a large number of aliens, and a large degree of cooperation.
I'm not trying to insult anyone here but your arguments are based purely on simple lack of understanding of the new tactics and strategies that are necessary in 2.0. I don't claim to be the 2.0 expert either, but face it, the game has been out less than 2 days. You have not tried everything, and you don't know what you're talking about. It really does take some guts to call the Vets and PTs incompetent for allowing the game to be released this way; they've been playing it for months and it was balanced for them. You've been playing it for days and it's not balanced for you. Do you see the connection? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont think we're complaining, and if we do that's because we care (good thing! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) The thread's name was early thoughts and we're discussing whether turret farms are overpowered or not, no need to get overly-defensive <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
played some more games <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> it seems the endgame turretspamming horrorfest is worse on some maps more than others <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> caged is horrible and uh whats the name of the one with the revolving door? hera I think is bad, but I just played a 9vs9 game in the new map (the really big cool looking one with claustrophobic hallways and lift, where we did well by getting 2 gorges to bile bomb from the elevator - through the 2 onoses as it went up, when the lift got to the top the onos charged, the fades jumped around and the turrets at the entrance lasted about half a second <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> just lucky there wasnt a marine grenade spamming into the lift.
<!--QuoteBegin--Epidemic+Aug 2 2003, 04:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epidemic @ Aug 2 2003, 04:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Very pessimistic view on it. For instance, I as Skulk could now take several HAs down and survive (couldnt do that in 1.04 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) Gorges are great in 2.0, they can now go more offensive now that you dont have to worry about losing the game because you die Lerks, I like them, especially spores and spikes makes them an ultimate ranged fighter, 30 res is no biggie Fade, they are more fragile now, but the new blink makes up for that, fades cant take down a squad of marines but they can certainly take a rambo marine, a lone turret farm and incomming at a hive <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Onos, I think you must have missed the countless redemption/devour threads <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Overall, I think they should all have a 1/2 cut in the res cost, but I think that would make them too strong early on <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I never killed more than 2 HA in a row as a skulk and they were low on health. I dont think you could pull that off on a regular basis in 2.0. You must have been very lucky or fighting the worst players on earth <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Gorges on offence? Yeah sure its funnier than to type kill in the console but not very productive except for bilebombing badly placed turrets or undefended res nodes which are both rare these days.
Well ultimate is a bit exagerated for something that loses on a regular basis against lvl0 marines. If i would get 1 cent for every lerk i killed i could buy me a new car. Once you figure out that you just have to rush them they are easy prey. Maybe for 15 res i would play them but 30 is simply too much for a teethless skulk.
Blink costs lots of adrenaline and lone rambo marines can be killed for 0 res using a skulk, they dont stop a single HA/HMG marine which is now cheaper than the fade and they dont perform well against those new turrets of doom that usually come in numbers >=6.
Never had problems with redempt./devour onos. I usually move in squads and the onos is redeemed before it comes into devour range. This tactic doesn?t work well against decent squads only against rambos. I think its not very wise to choose redemption for an onos. (You dont die but you dont kill either so you?re just wasting your time)
Totally agree with you on reducing the costs for alien lifeforms (and OC) to give us marines a greater variety of targets. Fades/onos are more newbiefriendly because of their size making them a perfect practice target for our less skilled aimers. Finally they could experience the joy of killing an alien that they couldn?t before because of the lightning fast skulks.
Unfortunately the main mentality when trying to take the marines in their last-stand turret farmed base seems to be "we've got 3 hives, all our alien classes should be godly, we should be able to just run in there and take out all the turrets, by ourselves if need be, a-la 1.04".
I play in a clan, maybe we're more organized than most pubbers. But at that end game, when we actually speak amongst our teammates, delegate roles and classes, we get the job done, and quite effectively. There's not one gorge running in and getting blasted by turrets, there's one gorge taking openings to launch a few bilebombs, but staying behind the onos who's soaking damage, who's being covered by the pair of fades from the other entrance to the marine start, who're being umbra'd by the lerks from both sides.
To repeat what was previously said by our oh-so-wise admin, gone are the days of solo-onosing in their base. As much as you'd like to say your 1.04 mentality isn't present, it is. When you break it, you can offer the rest of us some challenge, if not, you'll just be another pubber to smash.
Lerk is supposed to be a supportive class, surrounding teammates in umbra, and such.
Your idea that an onos will get redempted so soon only works under perfect conditions. Unless it's a wide open area, the ono stomps ( fine, it cant on first hive, but by the time you're onos the second hive is usualy up), eats a marine, gores the others, and redempts.
Comments
Also, Red Alert and The Tiberium Conflict aren't exactely state-of the art anymore - check Generals, Warcraft 3, or even Star Craft, and try to win there with only one unit type.
which is a prime example of Westwoods suckage <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
actually imo once people learn how to use lerks + gorges together effectively there will be less turret farm problems
And you <i>can</i> compare NS to a RTS in many aspects - it's just a 'little' more complex thanks to the social compnents.
NS is RTS orientated, and the alien team should have 1 type of each class active, to use its speciality (skulk sneakiness, gorge healiness, lerk defendingness, fade swipiness and onos carnageness)
It is easier to compare NS to StarCraft because of the whole sci-fi setting and how both are very simple, StarCraft more so. But I think it is easier for an experienced AoK player to be commander than an experienced StarCraft player (considering the fact that the most used StarCraft strategy is 5 minute rush).
Some comparisons:
<a href='http://aok.heavengames.com/pics/units/unique/warphantfade.jpg' target='_blank'>Elephant</a> = <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://aok.heavengames.com/pics/units/trebuchet.jpg' target='_blank'>Trebuchet</a> = <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://aok.heavengames.com/pics/units/unique/teutknightfade.jpg' target='_blank'>Teutonic Knights</a> = Heavy Armor
<a href='http://aok.heavengames.com/pics/units/bombardcannon.jpg' target='_blank'>Bombard Cannon</a> = GL Marine
Actually, that's the impression I'm starting to get or I wouldn't be manually chaning maps on my server after a 2+ hour stalemate. I just can't believe that NS 2 has so much polish and refinement but the gameplay changes so far, suck IMO. And I think Seikeden is totally correct. Show me one RTS where one team has a tiny fraction of the res of another that survives for more than a few minutes. Its sad but I've manually changed maps more than I've finished on my server because it becomes BORING AND POINTLESS to wage an infinite war against the late game, turret farmed, marine start. And while you special guys who have been playtesting may have found strats that worked for you in beta they are no working in pubs(.) Sure, the game has already been out two days but no miraculous strategy or team work will solve this. This must be corrected in game IMO.
Sure do. EXCEPT THE ENTIRE PROBLEM IS THEY CANT GET IN. Look at it in a realism angle instead of the perfect world examples ive seen so far. 12v12. 4 Onos, couple fade, 3 gorges, few lerks and the rest skulk. Onos charge in, while the turrets are being covered in umbra. OOPS cant get to that part because 4 GL spammers just blew up all the onos. or you get this perdiciment. Awesome the onos made it in. Ooops umbra went away too quickly and the 5 HA HMGS tore them to shreds. Do we see a pattern here....?
How do you stop the aliens from getting rid of your turrets?
Two marines with grenade launcher. Maybe one with hmg just in case. Done. Base is gauranteed to never be lost.
I actually enjoy the aliens hour long conquest of the marine spawn. So much team work envolved, and once its done, you get that awesome feeling of success inside.
I can't believe you guys are complaining about marines when the majority of the time, the Kharaa mop the marines all the way to extiction.
I think NS 2.0 has achieved its goal of the team with more team work will win the game.
Sure do. EXCEPT THE ENTIRE PROBLEM IS THEY CANT GET IN. Look at it in a realism angle instead of the perfect world examples ive seen so far. 12v12. 4 Onos, couple fade, 3 gorges, few lerks and the rest skulk. Onos charge in, while the turrets are being covered in umbra. OOPS cant get to that part because 4 GL spammers just blew up all the onos. or you get this perdiciment. Awesome the onos made it in. Ooops umbra went away too quickly and the 5 HA HMGS tore them to shreds. Do we see a pattern here....? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think 4 GL spammers are a perfect world angle as well <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If there was teamwork it wouldn't take an hour would it? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But a welder works excellently.
Anyhow I think the best route to fixing this is to lower grenade damage against aliens (NOT Alien structures). That way the GL is effective offensively and not so much defensively. Some of the (wiser) beta testers already suggested this. The GL is the main thing stopping the gorges from using the Bile Bomb counter to Turrets.
Oops I thought umbra blocked bullets.
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Aug 2 2003, 09:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Aug 2 2003, 09:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do you have any idea how hard it is to stop a skulk intent on xenociding? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Extremely hard if your HMG has no bullets sorry for double post. It got cloned
<span style='color:white'>De-clonified <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--></span>
Marines:
Great. I love playing as marines now. You aren´t doomed anymore as the second hive comes up which is the best of all the changes. Now you dont have to pull of a boring 2 hive lockdown to win but instead you just can grab 4 res towers, tech to HA and then pay each hive a visit. The weapons are all great fun to use and get handed out a lot more than in 1.04 and since the aliens seem made of paper its major ownage to be part of a HA assault squad. In 1.04 i always played aliens but now i´ve become an avid marine player.
Aliens:
As much as i love the marines in 2.0 i hate the aliens. The alien game has become so boring it stopped me from playing them. The thing i hate the most is the new res system. Everything seems to take forever. In 2.0 you spend most of the time as a skulk and if finally you managed to get some cash to evolve you die to the first enemy squad you encounter. Alien classes are no more fun to play but lets take a look at each one of them:
Skulks: The 2.0 alien i like most. Its faster which is always good and has more hp and armor than in 1.04. They did this one right.
Gorge: I feel useles as a gorge. Sure i can build stuff and get the occasional spit kill but thats it. And i must wait forever to get the cash to build something. Gone are the happy days where i could build WOL´s outside the marine spawn(and even inside) or web a marine and drop a OC and keeping him webbed till it was build only to see him suffer the most humiliating death imaginable. Now i hardly can afford 1 OC and they are so weak when in low numbers that they are useless against anything but 1 la/lmg marine. (On the other hand turrets sometimes give the comm more res from kills then the RT that they are supposed to protect) Bilebomb range is too short to survive an assault on an outpost and web is hive 3 tech and hence rarely seen.
Lerk: Spores are useless against la marines since they just charge and kill you and dont work against HA. Spikes are decent but dont justify the 30 res the lerk costs. Umbra lasts so short i dont use it anymore since my idea of fun isn´t to just support my squadmembers but to get some kills for myself too. But i can´t afford to switch to spikes or the others run out of umbra. Primal scream is great but since its a hive 3 tech you rarely see it cause any decent marine team will lock down 1 hive to be save from acid rockets and webs which are the marines biggest enemys.
Fade: This one stands for drop 50 res out the window. Whats the idea behind the Fade? I like that they moved acid rocket to hive 3 to make it more of a close range fighter class but hes so weak that he dies even when faced against 1 lvl0 marine. Fade are so slow that marines can outrun/jump his claws while firering at him. Blink uses too much energy to be efficient and metabolize is too slow to be of any importance. And blink and metabolize claw positions look the same so its easy to confuse them. Acid rocket is great as always but its a hive 3 tech so its only seen when the marines already lost.
Onos: Please change the name of that one to OhYes. I always am happy to encounter one as a HA/HMG marine since they are soo huge and slow that its impossible to miss them, they drop so fast and i know that now the aliens are short of 100 res muahaha. I fear skulks more than onos because they are fast and small and as HA i get killed more by skulks than by onos. Man even 3 la/lmg marines can drop an onos very fast and they cost 0 res. Stomp is great but if the marines aren´t lined all up nicely you cant gore/devour the stomped one cause the others kill you if you attempt it. So you can just delay a HA Squad with stomp but you dont pose a serious threat. Charge is nice but hive 3 tech.
Summary: As alien you spend most of the time saving the res to evolve to a higher life form only to get killed by the first vanilla marine. As marines you have loads of fun toying around with all the weapons that never got handed out in 1.04, you can kill lots of underpowered aliens giving you a great sense of power *Insert evil laughter* and the times you loose are rare if the com isn´t a total newbie and goes for res and HA.
PS: Dont get me wrong. I love the new 2.0 build even if only because of the marines.
There is a simple fact that alien pubbers are going to have to get used to, and that is that aliens have been made more teamwork reliant than they ever were before. Period. You can't expect to go into a base with a single gorge and a single onos and clear out a well established turret farm with marine defenders; that's simply stupid. To overwhelm a large number of marines in their own fortified base you need a large number of aliens, and a large degree of cooperation.
I'm not trying to insult anyone here but your arguments are based purely on simple lack of understanding of the new tactics and strategies that are necessary in 2.0. I don't claim to be the 2.0 expert either, but face it, the game has been out less than 2 days. You have not tried everything, and you don't know what you're talking about. It really does take some guts to call the Vets and PTs incompetent for allowing the game to be released this way; they've been playing it for months and it was balanced for them. You've been playing it for days and it's not balanced for you. Do you see the connection?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I guess when I want to win, I play 2.0 marines and not alien on pub servers. I think NOT. Whatever happend to limiting the number of turrets.
For instance, I as Skulk could now take several HAs down and survive (couldnt do that in 1.04 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Gorges are great in 2.0, they can now go more offensive now that you dont have to worry about losing the game because you die
Lerks, I like them, especially spores and spikes makes them an ultimate ranged fighter, 30 res is no biggie
Fade, they are more fragile now, but the new blink makes up for that, fades cant take down a squad of marines but they can certainly take a rambo marine, a lone turret farm and incomming at a hive <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Onos, I think you must have missed the countless redemption/devour threads <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Overall, I think they should all have a 1/2 cut in the res cost, but I think that would make them too strong early on
There is a simple fact that alien pubbers are going to have to get used to, and that is that aliens have been made more teamwork reliant than they ever were before. Period. You can't expect to go into a base with a single gorge and a single onos and clear out a well established turret farm with marine defenders; that's simply stupid. To overwhelm a large number of marines in their own fortified base you need a large number of aliens, and a large degree of cooperation.
I'm not trying to insult anyone here but your arguments are based purely on simple lack of understanding of the new tactics and strategies that are necessary in 2.0. I don't claim to be the 2.0 expert either, but face it, the game has been out less than 2 days. You have not tried everything, and you don't know what you're talking about. It really does take some guts to call the Vets and PTs incompetent for allowing the game to be released this way; they've been playing it for months and it was balanced for them. You've been playing it for days and it's not balanced for you. Do you see the connection? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think we're complaining, and if we do that's because we care (good thing! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->)
The thread's name was early thoughts and we're discussing whether turret farms are overpowered or not, no need to get overly-defensive <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As said many times before....Maps are the biggest balance problems in NS right now.
For instance, I as Skulk could now take several HAs down and survive (couldnt do that in 1.04 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Gorges are great in 2.0, they can now go more offensive now that you dont have to worry about losing the game because you die
Lerks, I like them, especially spores and spikes makes them an ultimate ranged fighter, 30 res is no biggie
Fade, they are more fragile now, but the new blink makes up for that, fades cant take down a squad of marines but they can certainly take a rambo marine, a lone turret farm and incomming at a hive <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Onos, I think you must have missed the countless redemption/devour threads <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Overall, I think they should all have a 1/2 cut in the res cost, but I think that would make them too strong early on <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never killed more than 2 HA in a row as a skulk and they were low on health. I dont think you could pull that off on a regular basis in 2.0. You must have been very lucky or fighting the worst players on earth <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Gorges on offence? Yeah sure its funnier than to type kill in the console but not very productive except for bilebombing badly placed turrets or undefended res nodes which are both rare these days.
Well ultimate is a bit exagerated for something that loses on a regular basis against lvl0 marines. If i would get 1 cent for every lerk i killed i could buy me a new car. Once you figure out that you just have to rush them they are easy prey. Maybe for 15 res i would play them but 30 is simply too much for a teethless skulk.
Blink costs lots of adrenaline and lone rambo marines can be killed for 0 res using a skulk, they dont stop a single HA/HMG marine which is now cheaper than the fade and they dont perform well against those new turrets of doom that usually come in numbers >=6.
Never had problems with redempt./devour onos. I usually move in squads and the onos is redeemed before it comes into devour range. This tactic doesn?t work well against decent squads only against rambos. I think its not very wise to choose redemption for an onos. (You dont die but you dont kill either so you?re just wasting your time)
Totally agree with you on reducing the costs for alien lifeforms (and OC) to give us marines a greater variety of targets. Fades/onos are more newbiefriendly because of their size making them a perfect practice target for our less skilled aimers. Finally they could experience the joy of killing an alien that they couldn?t before because of the lightning fast skulks.
I play in a clan, maybe we're more organized than most pubbers. But at that end game, when we actually speak amongst our teammates, delegate roles and classes, we get the job done, and quite effectively.
There's not one gorge running in and getting blasted by turrets, there's one gorge taking openings to launch a few bilebombs, but staying behind the onos who's soaking damage, who's being covered by the pair of fades from the other entrance to the marine start, who're being umbra'd by the lerks from both sides.
To repeat what was previously said by our oh-so-wise admin, gone are the days of solo-onosing in their base. As much as you'd like to say your 1.04 mentality isn't present, it is. When you break it, you can offer the rest of us some challenge, if not, you'll just be another pubber to smash.
Your idea that an onos will get redempted so soon only works under perfect conditions. Unless it's a wide open area, the ono stomps ( fine, it cant on first hive, but by the time you're onos the second hive is usualy up), eats a marine, gores the others, and redempts.