<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It could also have to do with the fact that it is being fixed by flayra <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Nobody feels like beating that dead horse anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me quote myself:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (redemption is being changed, yes, but that has little to do with this special tactic)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seriously, have you looked at the amount of newbies we get here currently? If it really was that big an issue, I would've been forced to lock a number of new topics about it within the last few hours.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, but that doesn't work against a lot of marines with a 1 hit kill weapon. Tried and tested. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seriously, have you looked at the amount of newbies we get here currently? If it really was that big an issue, I would've been forced to lock a new topic about it within the last twelve hours.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well all of the topics were locked in the last 12 hours. I came on about 6:00 my time and all of the onos devour threads were locked in about 1 hour or so.
I've never seen jetpacks used yet (nobody seems to like them currently) so can't comment. Mind, I'd be inclined to say the JP was a waste of res anyway and going for HA or say phase gates would be an infinitely better idea.
I could now go on adding responses to each and every of your claims, but honestly, I'm getting tired of it, because you'll find answers just for the sake of the argument - even if you have to conciously ignore rethorical figures <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. Accept it or not, shottie rushs <i>are</i> counterable, and I told you how.
Aegeri, while I appreciate how strongly you feel about this, I do believe you're mistaken about the shotgun rush. It CAN be devastating, but it is also counterable with some alien teamwork. Plus tack on that these rushes are only being seen by most for the first time and thus surprise is working on the marines side. Give it a few days and people will have come up with a counter to this rush that will basically make it a once in a while thing instead of the sure win you claim it is. People will adapt and find solutions, counters, and new strats. That is the beauty of this game. Wait till all the new players get the feel and the vets get the strats and then we can speak of balance.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Aug 2 2003, 03:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 2 2003, 03:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I could now go on adding responses to each and every of your claims, but honestly, I'm getting tired of it, because you'll find answers just for the sake of the argument - even if you have to conciously ignore rethorical figures <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. Accept it or not, shottie rushs <i>are</i> counterable, and I told you how. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No you didn't, we've already been discussing sensory for a while and I don't think that is going to work on a PUBLIC server. Honestly, in the times I've seen this done skulk ambushing has been less than effective due to many factors. One is the shotguns killing power which is NOT shared by the skulk. Unless you can tell me a way that skulks can kill marines in one hit then that argument is largely irrelevant.
You have also not answered any other problems like what the aliens do to a hemming in strategy or if the shotgun rush focuses on res towers or similar. Aliens cannot win by sitting in their hive all game because they are afraid to come out until fade/onos. Even then BOTH these aliens go down like a sack of potatos against shotguns.
What about if the aliens build a movement or defence chamber? Again they are screwed even more than if they built sensory. So what about my comment on continually having to go sense first or dying to the first shotgun rush instead?
I think there is a bigger issue here on public servers than you make out <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Arcadius <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Give it a few days and people will have come up with a counter to this rush that will basically make it a once in a while thing instead of the sure win you claim it is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true, but if the counter was obvious then people would be doing it by now. It also doesn't solve other issues surrounding the shotguns power. Possibly it is just the shock that "OMG SHOTGUNS DON'T SUCK OMG OMG OMG" but the fact it comes in less than 4 minutes.
I've used a jetpack shotgun! By myself i was able to redeem those onos faster than coupons. Its nice. Shotguns take better aim than people give them credit for.
Also, sensories are the perfect counter to a rush of any kind.... but thats about all they are good for early game. If they can't see you they typically won't shoot at you. It's all about the ambush.
<!--QuoteBegin--KaiserRoll+Aug 2 2003, 05:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KaiserRoll @ Aug 2 2003, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> By myself i was able to redeem those onos faster than coupons. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol
Can the aliens even get a lerk before the shotguns are there...and why are we talking about onos and shotguns this isn't apart of the discussion, this is basically a 3 minute rush I don't see many onos in 3 minutes.
Possible counter, everyone go gorge drop SC and have the rest do O chambers and just wait with spit....this might hurt the gorges and the marines would just wait outside and Turret farm up and be happy. Aliens part now comes into affect that they all just wasted 20 res on building a defense that is now not being used. They go back to skuls or even better rush together and the shotguns just fire into the sea of gorges and everything dies. We also must take into affect the amount of time it takes for the rines to get to the hive... and the number of res coming in 1 for comm chair and 1 for rine start res. Med spamming or TF would be the first logical thing in taking this out.
I do like the idea of halving the shotgun's damage to alien buildings(but then it would just have to be GL's and LMG's to take out everything.(Enough nade spam and you got yourself an unstable server..least in 1.04) I honestly have read everything people have posted and I don't think alot of these counters can work.....so we all have to know think that the marines are gunna shotgun rush...puts hte aliens on defense, if they wanted too marines could send 4 guys with shotguns while one was a res **** and go cap nodes. Sensory chambers isn't something I want to have to go every time the map starts in fear of a shotgun rush, and to be able to tell a whole server to camp at base in hiding spots because they are going to rush. I thought aliens were suppose to rush, now its the marines.
Either way I hope someone can figure out a counter or fix this problem before it becomes used everytime, something like this could ruin some new peoples fixation with this mod.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So far I've been attempting to do a few things like instantly rushing with a shotgun. Essentially, once the armory and IP is built, I straight away drop shotguns (to everyone I can). These shotgunners then go one place: The alien hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I belive that flayra has already looked well into this Shotgun rush tactic. I remember we spent many days just playing with the balence. Flayra added and subtracted hp and things here and there. In the end I strongly feel that the shotgun rush can be fended off. I will explain how.
The aliens that run to the marine start at the start of the game, must tell there team if they see shotguns comming. Even without Lerks a few well placed offence chambers coupled with a light counter attack of marine start and the rush will fail. Not only will the rush fail maires very likely will lose there infintry portals.
I am confident that with experiance, aliens will learn to defend this rush better. If vets and playtesters were not able to tip the balence of the current set up I dont feel that on pubs this tactic will remain devistating much longer. New players are still learning the game and as they do they will learn to counter.
So long as the skulks are scouting propperly. I dont belive the hive can be hit before light defences can be raised.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So long as the skulks are scouting propperly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the problem with pubs though, nobody really knows how to scout very well at all. Also it is a relatively big assumption that the marines keep going in. They can pull out if they see a counter and just turret up outside of the alien hive. Skulks that leave the hive get smacked by the shotgunners.
Of course, an attack at the marine spawn might work, but then you have that many less skulks at the hive...which then compounds the problem on a pub.
Heh, hate to burst your bubble but if I got SG rushed I'd get in a vent and spore you guys to death. I suppose SG rushes would work most of the time, but as somebody said, sensories counter it pretty well.
<!--QuoteBegin--n4s7y+Aug 2 2003, 03:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (n4s7y @ Aug 2 2003, 03:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Heh, hate to burst your bubble but if I got SG rushed I'd get in a vent and spore you guys to death. I suppose SG rushes would work most of the time, but as somebody said, sensories counter it pretty well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uhh you don't get the time to go lerk. It happens WAY before lerks even appear (hence why nobody has been talking about using them...).
Also sensory isn't that great a counter, especially if the comm has built an observatory (I have to try doing that actually).
He another thread about shotguns. think about it this way, if you have a good experienced alien team then you will usually have a fairly good marine team. They arent dumb. They will shot around a area before they walk into it to see if there are any sensories. If they see taht one side is covered with skulks they can just walk through the other door. Rarely are there hives where there is one way in one way out.
This is the shotty rush for those who are very confused: -build IP and armory (if you all build 1 then the other, 30 seconds max to get it done)(40 res iirc) -drop 5 shotties (1 second) (50 res) -left with 10 res to health spam. If you have a fairly good marine team you will get a few alien kills and more res for you. If you kill a gorge, even more res. -Travel to hive (30seconds to 50 seconds) -As stated above. 17 damage per pellet, 10 pellets per shot. that makes 170 damage a shot and with 10 bullets that is 1700 each marine. You will bring a hive down in the time it takes to clean a entire shotty clip.
Aliens(THis is if they know that they are being rushed): Everyone starts with 25 Gorging (takes around 30 seconds,i think) Building 1 chamber (20 second) If 3 gorges build chambers you will have level 3 d,m,s chambers. D chambers: Ok so you have 20 more armor (95 armory < 170 dmg from one shot) M chambers: Lets not talk about this, you might be saved by celerity but i doubt it. S chambers: Well whoopydoo you're cloaked, you're still dead in one shot. Marines can just spray a room each time they enter a room and eventually find the skulks and s chambers in there.
-or-
you can all lerk. Spore does around 10-20 dmg per shot right? spikes do 20 also iirc (I'm probably completely off since I really dont know) but fact is, 2 res can make it all unworth it. It will still take close to 10 seconds to kill a marine. Those marines can completely ignore you and just shoot the hive. They will drop the hive in under 5 seconds.
I've seen 6 shotgun rushes so far. The reason I've not seen more (I guess) is that 5 were countered. 1 got through because no one scouted marine base early on (I was going to go gorge and build until I realized that) and I got off a warning too late to stop them.
The important thing to note is that shotguns, even the new shotguns, are not true spray and pray weapons. Let's assume we're defending the hive (which is likely). Slap down a sensory in a somewhat inaccessible area (such as, in many hives, actually outside the hive). 3 gorges drop 3 ocs. You then have 4 gorges and 2 skulks, assuming 6v6. 2 gorges ungorge. One skulk can maybe go lerk if the marines are slow, your choice.
So, now what, you say? Marines can approach in one of two formations. Tight, or spread. In either case, you've got them. If they're spread apart, a skulk can take out a marine and disappear behind a column/corner before the others can pick him off (which is probably why shotties don't travel far apart!), and if everyone starts emptying on the hive for a quick hive kill, the combined firepower of all the skulks will easily wipe the marines all ove the floor. Assuming they're in a tight formation, which is more likely, the pure disruption of having skulks appear amidst a tight formation is devastating. Normally, this isn't the case, since marines can spray around them to catch skulks... However, you're applying hammer and anvil tactics, with the OCs as anvils. The marines will HAVE to start shooting the OCs if they want to pull off the rush, leaving at most 1 or 2 doing covering fire. Skulks rush into the mix, marines are now busy shooting skulks AMIDST them as well as OCs being healed by a gorge (the other gorge should be gorge spitting, to further confuse the marines).
This is a heavily psychological tactic, relying on the fact that even 5 shotties shooting randomly about will not pick out five tiny little guys with melee attacks before they buy enough time/kill enough of them for OCs to finish the rest off. For those who argue this can't be pulled off in a pub, I'd argue we pulled it off in 4 different pubs, once with 2 members of a fake clan who liked to say that team tactics are stupid because "they violate the spirit of Khaara". It's very possible, and will be all the more so shortly as people learn how devastating uncountered shotgun rushes are.
That said, just about any variation will work, this is just my preference.
This "shotguns = one shot dead skulk llolololollo shotguns r invincible" argument is ridiculous. Decent skulks with sensories will beat the one-shot wonders, and I'll tell you how(others already did but you don't seem to understand the concept).
A gorge puts a sensory somewhere, preferably pretty close outside the hive for healing. Skulks wait for the shotgunners to come inside sens range and pick a target. Skulk goes behind marine, bites twice, marine is <u>DEAD</u>. Shotgun or no, that rine will not even see his attacker before he dies. Yes, his friends might kill you afterwards, but a free skulk for a 10 res shotty is worth it.
Then the next skulk kills another shotty from behind, maybe using the distraction from the first to his further advantage and getting 2 if he's lucky. We'll assume approximately equal skill on each side; if a pub marine is good enough to nail a skulk with a shotgun in one shot, a pub skulk is good enough to hold down the mouse button for a second to kill the marine.
I don't know if you're intentionally ignoring the proper usage of sensory chambers or what, but you're not supposed to just charge right up to a shotty and start biting. If you do that you will die. Instead you use the full cloak to get behind them and essentially assassinate them before they can shoot you, which is EXTREMELY easy, trust me.
Basically what we have here is that a decent alien team can annihilate a shotgun rush if they know it's coming. If they don't then they could be in trouble, and they may have to resort to old fashioned ambushes like hiding above doorways(which can still work, not all marines have lightning fast reflexes). One skulk to check marine spawn as soon as game starts is all it takes to set the counter in motion, and if a shotgun rush fails then marines are seriously hurt for res and have a good chance of losing the game in the followup attack.
ALL IN ALL, IT COMES DOWN TO THIS **** POINT! MED SPAMMING = UBER FACKING LAME!!! Make it so you can only drop 1 med every 2 seconds or make meds cost like 5 res! MED SPAM IS ****!!!!
Or, make it so you CANNOT drop meds, but make the PHASE GATE do it!!! NO MORE MED SPAM!!! NO MORE PROBLEMS!! GAME = BALANCED!! LIFE GOES ON!!!
<!--QuoteBegin--Jean Luc Picard+Aug 2 2003, 05:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jean Luc Picard @ Aug 2 2003, 05:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ALL IN ALL, IT COMES DOWN TO THIS **** POINT! MED SPAMMING = UBER FACKING LAME!!! Make it so you can only drop 1 med every 2 seconds or make meds cost like 5 res! MED SPAM IS ****!!!! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Such an intelligent post! You know, if the marine is full health one second and dead the next from a skulk biting him from behind, there isn't going to be a single med dropped on him in time. And marines can't just sit on a pile of meds when they're trying to move towards a hive. Med spamming is almost completely irrelevant in regards to shotgun rushes.
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Aug 2 2003, 05:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Aug 2 2003, 05:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This "shotguns = one shot dead skulk llolololollo shotguns r invincible" argument is ridiculous. Decent skulks with sensories will beat the one-shot wonders, and I'll tell you how(others already did but you don't seem to understand the concept).
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> most decent marine teams dont just walk into a room near a hive and not fire a few rounds around the room to see if anyone is there. Sure you can block a shotty rush if your marine team is REALLY stupid and the alien team is unnaturally good. hurrr
I figured the way to counter the shotgun rush, have all skulks go gorge and then put movement chambers all around, and d chambers to make them celerity and carapace skulks. Also once u see the first shotgun rusher the first skuls die, they come back and go onos to devour the shotgunners and since they will have redemtion it will help.
Funny that no one wants to address the hammer and anvil style psychological warfare teams I've been on have been using... I would seriously like to see how armchair arguments here hold up to the effects I've seen so far in reality (or, em, virtual reality).
I figured the way to counter the shotgun rush, have all skulks go gorge and then put movement chambers all around, and d chambers to make them celerity and carapace skulks. Also once u see the first shotgun rusher the first skuls die, they come back and go onos to devour the shotgunners and since they will have redemtion it will help. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What a good laugh at that late time... uh man I'm to tired to argue with you if this was a joke or not <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Spazmatic+Aug 2 2003, 06:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spazmatic @ Aug 2 2003, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Funny that no one wants to address the hammer and anvil style psychological warfare teams I've been on have been using... I would seriously like to see how armchair arguments here hold up to the effects I've seen so far in reality (or, em, virtual reality). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A it has been talked about before.
B it occurs far faster than you accredit it.
C it automatically assumes the aliens have more competency than I have seen.
and finally
D utterly ignores a commander that builds an observatory and fails to address what aliens do if the marines LEAVE and turret up.
Thank you.
Zek <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basically what we have here is that a decent alien team can annihilate a shotgun rush if they know it's coming. If they don't then they could be in trouble, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much it's a 'build' correctly immediately or be screwed rush. However, the thing with these counters is they economically screw the aliens as badly as the marines do to themselves. What you have said like with Spazs arguments has already been talked about, and again, ignores the useage of scanning and the like.
Aegeri, obviously you cannot be convinced. Please jump in the comm chair every game and shotgun rush again and again, and come back in a week or two and tell us how that's going.
Also, I think this quote from Flayra in yesterday's 2.0 FAQ is once again relevant: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The aliens are too strong now! You nerfed the jetpack! Shotties are over-powered! (etc.)</b> We've had a over 100 very astute and very skilled people that have been playing 2.0 for over three months. Please don't post ANY balance feedback for a couple weeks, as it's just too new for you guys to judge. Balance will not be flip-flopping quickly after release, like in 1.0x. Please post other feedback though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Aug 2 2003, 06:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Aug 2 2003, 06:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Aegeri, obviously you cannot be convinced. Please jump in the comm chair every game and shotgun rush again and again, and come back in a week or two and tell us how that's going. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually I can be convinced, but not by poor arguments like you are presenting.
As for the (inevitable repeat of that quote), get some originality and stop acting like a broken record.
We're beating a dead horse anyway, I have nothing further to really add and I don't think anyone else does either for now.
Um..excuse me, one of the updates in 2.0 was to make all chambers viable. Everyone seems to forget that marines rely on sound, if a team walks into refinery on bast (the door nearest the hive) you can use MOVEMENT chambers, which can be placed anywhere (unlike sensory) to be effective, which means less chance of them being destroyed, and even if they did the people who already upgraded would still have it. So anyway, they walk into refinery, most likely looking straight ahead at the hive or any kind of defenses you may have set up, you can walk up the side of one of those short walls on either side of the door utilizing SILENCE, drop behind them and possibly take 2 marines...I've used silence alot, confuses the hell out of marines, and if theyre firing that means they might not even hear the bite feedback. I think with 2 or 3 skulks you would annihilate the rush. The marine mind-set has been if they can't HEAR a threat, then there isn't a threat. Already in 2.0 I've run behind marines for a good long ways (i swear marines run nearly as fast as skulks) and they NEVER looked back..not many marines want to be bothered by looking behind them every 2 seconds just to make SURE that there is nothing there. Silence is almost as good as cloak, as long as you don't step into their field of vision youre completely invisible to them. This strategy has various permutations, it can work anywhere, you can run around the map using the path the marines took to get behind them. I guarantee if you don't rush them head on with silence you are going to get at LEAST one kill. Also, I believe it is possible to lerk before they get there..its only 5 more res than you started out with, so run up on a beam, gestate, and then marines can fall prey to 1 or 2 spore clouds while you spike them to death. I believe lerk spike is 16 damage while I think spore is either 14 or 24..dont remember, but you can be doing 14 or 24 damage per second to ALL the marines, and 30-40 damage to one marine at a time. Multiple lerks will end the rush pretty quick. Have 1 or 2 people go lerk, build move chambers, the skulks get silence, the lerks get adrenaline. Sounds like a good plan to me. I really don't believe that no one can get lerk before or just after their arrival, if you're not sure whether theyll rush have one person go lerk ASAP anyway for security. Also very quickly I would like to say my team and I used the devour/redeem combo all the time when we played..it WOULD be unfair except that marines DID NOT use jetpacks...jetpack/shotgun? I don't remember a time where there would have been a lerk or fade to save me if this happened..
Comments
Let me quote myself:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (redemption is being changed, yes, but that has little to do with this special tactic)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, have you looked at the amount of newbies we get here currently? If it really was that big an issue, I would've been forced to lock a number of new topics about it within the last few hours.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, but that doesn't work against a lot of marines with a 1 hit kill weapon. Tried and tested. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So were shotguns/JPs.
Well all of the topics were locked in the last 12 hours. I came on about 6:00 my time and all of the onos devour threads were locked in about 1 hour or so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So were shotguns/JPs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never seen jetpacks used yet (nobody seems to like them currently) so can't comment. Mind, I'd be inclined to say the JP was a waste of res anyway and going for HA or say phase gates would be an infinitely better idea.
No you didn't, we've already been discussing sensory for a while and I don't think that is going to work on a PUBLIC server. Honestly, in the times I've seen this done skulk ambushing has been less than effective due to many factors. One is the shotguns killing power which is NOT shared by the skulk. Unless you can tell me a way that skulks can kill marines in one hit then that argument is largely irrelevant.
You have also not answered any other problems like what the aliens do to a hemming in strategy or if the shotgun rush focuses on res towers or similar. Aliens cannot win by sitting in their hive all game because they are afraid to come out until fade/onos. Even then BOTH these aliens go down like a sack of potatos against shotguns.
What about if the aliens build a movement or defence chamber? Again they are screwed even more than if they built sensory. So what about my comment on continually having to go sense first or dying to the first shotgun rush instead?
I think there is a bigger issue here on public servers than you make out <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Arcadius
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Give it a few days and people will have come up with a counter to this rush that will basically make it a once in a while thing instead of the sure win you claim it is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true, but if the counter was obvious then people would be doing it by now. It also doesn't solve other issues surrounding the shotguns power. Possibly it is just the shock that "OMG SHOTGUNS DON'T SUCK OMG OMG OMG" but the fact it comes in less than 4 minutes.
Also, sensories are the perfect counter to a rush of any kind.... but thats about all they are good for early game. If they can't see you they typically won't shoot at you. It's all about the ambush.
lol
love that quote
<3
Possible counter, everyone go gorge drop SC and have the rest do O chambers and just wait with spit....this might hurt the gorges and the marines would just wait outside and Turret farm up and be happy. Aliens part now comes into affect that they all just wasted 20 res on building a defense that is now not being used. They go back to skuls or even better rush together and the shotguns just fire into the sea of gorges and everything dies. We also must take into affect the amount of time it takes for the rines to get to the hive... and the number of res coming in 1 for comm chair and 1 for rine start res. Med spamming or TF would be the first logical thing in taking this out.
I do like the idea of halving the shotgun's damage to alien buildings(but then it would just have to be GL's and LMG's to take out everything.(Enough nade spam and you got yourself an unstable server..least in 1.04) I honestly have read everything people have posted and I don't think alot of these counters can work.....so we all have to know think that the marines are gunna shotgun rush...puts hte aliens on defense, if they wanted too marines could send 4 guys with shotguns while one was a res **** and go cap nodes. Sensory chambers isn't something I want to have to go every time the map starts in fear of a shotgun rush, and to be able to tell a whole server to camp at base in hiding spots because they are going to rush. I thought aliens were suppose to rush, now its the marines.
Either way I hope someone can figure out a counter or fix this problem before it becomes used everytime, something like this could ruin some new peoples fixation with this mod.
I belive that flayra has already looked well into this Shotgun rush tactic. I remember we spent many days just playing with the balence. Flayra added and subtracted hp and things here and there. In the end I strongly feel that the shotgun rush can be fended off. I will explain how.
The aliens that run to the marine start at the start of the game, must tell there team if they see shotguns comming. Even without Lerks a few well placed offence chambers coupled with a light counter attack of marine start and the rush will fail. Not only will the rush fail maires very likely will lose there infintry portals.
I am confident that with experiance, aliens will learn to defend this rush better. If vets and playtesters were not able to tip the balence of the current set up I dont feel that on pubs this tactic will remain devistating much longer. New players are still learning the game and as they do they will learn to counter.
So long as the skulks are scouting propperly. I dont belive the hive can be hit before light defences can be raised.
That is the problem with pubs though, nobody really knows how to scout very well at all. Also it is a relatively big assumption that the marines keep going in. They can pull out if they see a counter and just turret up outside of the alien hive. Skulks that leave the hive get smacked by the shotgunners.
Of course, an attack at the marine spawn might work, but then you have that many less skulks at the hive...which then compounds the problem on a pub.
Uhh you don't get the time to go lerk. It happens WAY before lerks even appear (hence why nobody has been talking about using them...).
Also sensory isn't that great a counter, especially if the comm has built an observatory (I have to try doing that actually).
This is the shotty rush for those who are very confused:
-build IP and armory (if you all build 1 then the other, 30 seconds max to get it done)(40 res iirc)
-drop 5 shotties (1 second) (50 res)
-left with 10 res to health spam. If you have a fairly good marine team you will get a few alien kills and more res for you. If you kill a gorge, even more res.
-Travel to hive (30seconds to 50 seconds)
-As stated above. 17 damage per pellet, 10 pellets per shot. that makes 170 damage a shot and with 10 bullets that is 1700 each marine. You will bring a hive down in the time it takes to clean a entire shotty clip.
Aliens(THis is if they know that they are being rushed):
Everyone starts with 25
Gorging (takes around 30 seconds,i think)
Building 1 chamber (20 second) If 3 gorges build chambers you will have level 3 d,m,s chambers.
D chambers: Ok so you have 20 more armor (95 armory < 170 dmg from one shot)
M chambers: Lets not talk about this, you might be saved by celerity but i doubt it.
S chambers: Well whoopydoo you're cloaked, you're still dead in one shot. Marines can just spray a room each time they enter a room and eventually find the skulks and s chambers in there.
-or-
you can all lerk. Spore does around 10-20 dmg per shot right? spikes do 20 also iirc (I'm probably completely off since I really dont know) but fact is, 2 res can make it all unworth it. It will still take close to 10 seconds to kill a marine. Those marines can completely ignore you and just shoot the hive. They will drop the hive in under 5 seconds.
Well guess what? You have around 30 seconds left.
The important thing to note is that shotguns, even the new shotguns, are not true spray and pray weapons. Let's assume we're defending the hive (which is likely). Slap down a sensory in a somewhat inaccessible area (such as, in many hives, actually outside the hive). 3 gorges drop 3 ocs. You then have 4 gorges and 2 skulks, assuming 6v6. 2 gorges ungorge. One skulk can maybe go lerk if the marines are slow, your choice.
So, now what, you say? Marines can approach in one of two formations. Tight, or spread. In either case, you've got them. If they're spread apart, a skulk can take out a marine and disappear behind a column/corner before the others can pick him off (which is probably why shotties don't travel far apart!), and if everyone starts emptying on the hive for a quick hive kill, the combined firepower of all the skulks will easily wipe the marines all ove the floor. Assuming they're in a tight formation, which is more likely, the pure disruption of having skulks appear amidst a tight formation is devastating. Normally, this isn't the case, since marines can spray around them to catch skulks... However, you're applying hammer and anvil tactics, with the OCs as anvils. The marines will HAVE to start shooting the OCs if they want to pull off the rush, leaving at most 1 or 2 doing covering fire. Skulks rush into the mix, marines are now busy shooting skulks AMIDST them as well as OCs being healed by a gorge (the other gorge should be gorge spitting, to further confuse the marines).
This is a heavily psychological tactic, relying on the fact that even 5 shotties shooting randomly about will not pick out five tiny little guys with melee attacks before they buy enough time/kill enough of them for OCs to finish the rest off. For those who argue this can't be pulled off in a pub, I'd argue we pulled it off in 4 different pubs, once with 2 members of a fake clan who liked to say that team tactics are stupid because "they violate the spirit of Khaara". It's very possible, and will be all the more so shortly as people learn how devastating uncountered shotgun rushes are.
That said, just about any variation will work, this is just my preference.
A gorge puts a sensory somewhere, preferably pretty close outside the hive for healing. Skulks wait for the shotgunners to come inside sens range and pick a target. Skulk goes behind marine, bites twice, marine is <u>DEAD</u>. Shotgun or no, that rine will not even see his attacker before he dies. Yes, his friends might kill you afterwards, but a free skulk for a 10 res shotty is worth it.
Then the next skulk kills another shotty from behind, maybe using the distraction from the first to his further advantage and getting 2 if he's lucky. We'll assume approximately equal skill on each side; if a pub marine is good enough to nail a skulk with a shotgun in one shot, a pub skulk is good enough to hold down the mouse button for a second to kill the marine.
I don't know if you're intentionally ignoring the proper usage of sensory chambers or what, but you're not supposed to just charge right up to a shotty and start biting. If you do that you will die. Instead you use the full cloak to get behind them and essentially assassinate them before they can shoot you, which is EXTREMELY easy, trust me.
Basically what we have here is that a decent alien team can annihilate a shotgun rush if they know it's coming. If they don't then they could be in trouble, and they may have to resort to old fashioned ambushes like hiding above doorways(which can still work, not all marines have lightning fast reflexes). One skulk to check marine spawn as soon as game starts is all it takes to set the counter in motion, and if a shotgun rush fails then marines are seriously hurt for res and have a good chance of losing the game in the followup attack.
Or, make it so you CANNOT drop meds, but make the PHASE GATE do it!!! NO MORE MED SPAM!!! NO MORE PROBLEMS!! GAME = BALANCED!! LIFE GOES ON!!!
SO LONG AND THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH!
Such an intelligent post! You know, if the marine is full health one second and dead the next from a skulk biting him from behind, there isn't going to be a single med dropped on him in time. And marines can't just sit on a pile of meds when they're trying to move towards a hive. Med spamming is almost completely irrelevant in regards to shotgun rushes.
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most decent marine teams dont just walk into a room near a hive and not fire a few rounds around the room to see if anyone is there. Sure you can block a shotty rush if your marine team is REALLY stupid and the alien team is unnaturally good. hurrr
I figured the way to counter the shotgun rush, have all skulks go gorge and then put movement chambers all around, and d chambers to make them celerity and carapace skulks. Also once u see the first shotgun rusher the first skuls die, they come back and go onos to devour the shotgunners and since they will have redemtion it will help.
I figured the way to counter the shotgun rush, have all skulks go gorge and then put movement chambers all around, and d chambers to make them celerity and carapace skulks. Also once u see the first shotgun rusher the first skuls die, they come back and go onos to devour the shotgunners and since they will have redemtion it will help. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What a good laugh at that late time... uh man I'm to tired to argue with you if this was a joke or not <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
A it has been talked about before.
B it occurs far faster than you accredit it.
C it automatically assumes the aliens have more competency than I have seen.
and finally
D utterly ignores a commander that builds an observatory and fails to address what aliens do if the marines LEAVE and turret up.
Thank you.
Zek
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basically what we have here is that a decent alien team can annihilate a shotgun rush if they know it's coming. If they don't then they could be in trouble, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much it's a 'build' correctly immediately or be screwed rush. However, the thing with these counters is they economically screw the aliens as badly as the marines do to themselves. What you have said like with Spazs arguments has already been talked about, and again, ignores the useage of scanning and the like.
Also, I think this quote from Flayra in yesterday's 2.0 FAQ is once again relevant:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The aliens are too strong now! You nerfed the jetpack! Shotties are over-powered! (etc.)</b>
We've had a over 100 very astute and very skilled people that have been playing 2.0 for over three months. Please don't post ANY balance feedback for a couple weeks, as it's just too new for you guys to judge. Balance will not be flip-flopping quickly after release, like in 1.0x. Please post other feedback though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I can be convinced, but not by poor arguments like you are presenting.
As for the (inevitable repeat of that quote), get some originality and stop acting like a broken record.
We're beating a dead horse anyway, I have nothing further to really add and I don't think anyone else does either for now.