Movment At 2nd Hive Chamber= Lose?

DiablusDiablus Join Date: 2003-03-31 Member: 15080Members
<div class="IPBDescription">first sens then d????</div> Most games i have played when a gorge doesnt drop a Sensory first or has a sensory then drops a movment at 2nd hive, and mariens have 1 hive lockdown the aliens usually lose <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->. i think its due to the fact of onos needs redemption or else they get crushed easily, yesterday we had sens and then movment, we had 2 hives up we had at least 5 onos what happened? they attacked CC all onos used movment to get there afterward all the onos died including me in less than 2 hmgers shooting us lose a clip

Comments

  • MasterShakeMasterShake Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15699Members
    My two personal favorite upgrade orders:

    <b>The default</b>
    Sensory
    Defense
    Movement

    It allows for onos (who should be using regen if they have some skill and play conservative) to survive. Defense is not particularly important for the fade because of metabolise, so if you plan on a team of fades then you might want to go with this one.


    <b>Super ninja skulk!</b>
    Movement
    Sensory
    Defense

    If the marines lock down a hive, you're screwed with this order. However, it will turn your team into a surprise attack machine, especially before MT. Even with MT, a silent cloaked skulk is very hard to spot when it's attacking you. I can consistently get four consecutive kills at an outpost that the commander is focusing on simply because they had no idea where/what they were shooting at. Also good for fades as they can blink and metabolise more with adrenaline.
  • StakhanovStakhanov Join Date: 2003-03-12 Member: 14448Members
    Movement is still better for gorges , lerks , and fades. The onos really doesn't need redemption when it stays in place , protecting spore/umbra spamming lerks and bile bombing gorges , or defending the hive. Celerity is one vital upgrade for the onos anyway.
  • DiablusDiablus Join Date: 2003-03-31 Member: 15080Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Stakhanov+Aug 3 2003, 11:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov @ Aug 3 2003, 11:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Movement is still better for gorges , lerks , and fades. The onos really doesn't need redemption when it stays in place , protecting spore/umbra spamming lerks and bile bombing gorges , or defending the hive. Celerity is one vital upgrade for the onos anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    i actually prefer silence if theres not a epic battle gonig on, but if there is jsut a sneak attack and theres a group on marines in an area where im cloaked, i let them pass, devour the one bhind him, cloak and slowly follow and gore the rest
  • DementedDemented Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18573Members
    Generally, I place either an sc or an mc at the first hive. Sc is great for skulks but mcs work wonders with gorges and lerks. It honestly depends, but for a pub team which I am not too familar with, I usually stick to sensories. The second hive slot is almost always reserved for dcs, since they give the onos redemption, which is one sure-fire way to prevent wastage of 100 res.
  • TheGlowTheGlow Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9650Members
    Why exactly are people favoring sensory first?
    Yea cloaks good, but I havent had good success with pheromones yet and scent of fear i havent had much success yet.
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    Bah, sensory is only effective against noob comms...

    Movement should always come first. Lerks and Fades both desparately need adrenaline, and skulks really could do with celerity and silence. Gorges come off really well with any of the 3. Onos are a waste of res at one hive so we shouldn't even consider them here...

    Next can come either chamber, depending on how the game is progressing. Celerity cloaked Onos tend not to need redemption because they can run faster than marines even while devouring. If you swing the other way and get defense then you can have your precious redeem...

    Gorges and fades make good use of Sensory, as Scent of Fear provides good early warning systems (fades need to know where they can and can't metabolise safely). The other evolutions do quite well with cloaking.

    On the other hand defense will make your OCs just about impossible to take out by vanilla marines. The upgrades themselves are universally good for all aliens, with celerity/regen and silent/carapace making some good combos...

    Basically as the 2nd hive comes up, the aliens need a quick conference to decide what is next and why. They should generally have an idea of what the marines are up to and need to use their chambers to press their advantages.
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Diablus+Aug 3 2003, 03:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Aug 3 2003, 03:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> we had at least 5 onos <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well that was your biggest mistake. FIVE onos? FIVE???

    WTH for? You need maybe one or two onos tops, and each one needs a gorge and a lerk by it's side to succeed. Onos runs in, devours one, gores the rest. Lerk spams umbra and spores (BOTH, not just one or it wont work). And gorge bile bombs what it can.

    Onos runs off at 200hp, and his guards cover his exit, heal-spraying and sporing. They heal up, just outside the marine base and then run in to rinse lather and repeat.

    Meanwhile fades are independently rushing in and out (which also helps cover the Onos exit), keeping constant pressure up with their speedy blinks into the base to kill the armoury humpers, and another blink out to save their skins and then metabolise to full health.
  • RenegadeOTVRenegadeOTV Join Date: 2002-11-28 Member: 10192Members
    Just about every game I've played that went sensory > Defense > Movement won. We lost with the others, especially when we didn't get defese. Sent of Fear is basically a wallhack. I haven't tried pheremons, and I haven't tried cloak because if we have sensorys, I always go gorge with sent of fear and make sensory webs. I 'm having fun trying out new places to put sensorys that marines can't reach or won't check. Sometimes I chain paths together between hives, sometimes I made cloaked healing stations, then either guerilla (hidden chambers or places so marines don't have easy ways to attack) or mini WoL offense/defense chambers. I haven't faced a marine team yet that have wiped out one of my sensory areas. You just have to place them well. Don't stick them in the middle of a pathway or right next to other chambers where a marine will hit it. Hide them in corners, preferable on top of things, in little spots in cielings, anywhere where a marine isn't likely to hit it, or best where a marine can't even reach it, or could but won't think of it.

    Movement first is great for a good team, but doesn't have the effect that sensory does imo. Defense is a must at second hive I think too.
  • FlatlineUTDFlatlineUTD Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7695Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--TheGlow+Aug 3 2003, 11:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheGlow @ Aug 3 2003, 11:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why exactly are people favoring sensory first?
    Yea cloaks good, but I havent had good success with pheromones yet and scent of fear i havent had much success yet. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sensory is good because it makes you invisible entirely on the parts of the map you control.

    Once you've got an area blanketed with passive cloaking, you don't need the cloak upgrade - try Scent of Fear, it's just as good as the marine's Motion Tracking, especially if you can get a Lerk to spore cloud a whole bunch of them. They'll all lose maybe 5-10 HP, but now they're all trackable.
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    Mov is a GREAT second hive upgrade, not only for adrenaline, but for me very usefull, travel quik around the map.. for me it changed many games that i could quikly travel from one hive to another..try it
  • FreddehFreddeh Join Date: 2003-07-29 Member: 18520Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Flatline[UTD]+Aug 3 2003, 12:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flatline[UTD] @ Aug 3 2003, 12:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--TheGlow+Aug 3 2003, 11:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheGlow @ Aug 3 2003, 11:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why exactly are people favoring sensory first?
    Yea cloaks good, but I havent had good success with pheromones yet and scent of fear i havent had much success yet. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sensory is good because it makes you invisible entirely on the parts of the map you control.

    Once you've got an area blanketed with passive cloaking, you don't need the cloak upgrade - try Scent of Fear, it's just as good as the marine's Motion Tracking, especially if you can get a Lerk to spore cloud a whole bunch of them. They'll all lose maybe 5-10 HP, but now they're all trackable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    With scent of fear now they don't even have to be hurt, you see them if they have full hp as well now. Great for spying and ambushing <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> (with cloaking via sense chambers of course)
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    Fades <b>need</b> movement chambers, they have massive energy issues and effective management only goes so far. Try M>D>S, it really does work (as long as you have atleast 1 or 2 skilled fades on your server... Most servers these days seem to have NO fades... :/ )
  • NecrosisNecrosis The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
    I go Sens Def Move although I've entered into heated discussion with others who insist on Def first.

    To be honest I like sens first because it means I can hide everything. And I have seen marines sit in "empty" RT rooms spamming their commander that they have a free RT. For some reason it doesnt occur to them to pop a few rounds into the space to see if there's a cloaked one there.

    I do it all the time now - necessity for marine players and others are catching on, hehe.
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    Sensory offers some great abilities, but they are purely defensive. It gives alien players and buildings supreme power in territory you already control. It however offers very few and very weak offensive capabilities. Sensory has the same weakness it did in 1.0x, as in it forces you to wait for the marines to come to you, instead of allowing you to take the fight to them.

    Defensive first isn't all that good an idea either. While they <b>do</b> let you take the fight to the enemy, all of the defensive chamber's benefits are directly proportional to the health of the alien you are using. Only the fade and onos really have enough health in the first place for defensive upgrades to make a game-breaking change. The rest of the aliens don't benefit anywhere near as much. An early fade might appreciate some early defensive chambers, but any good fade would be MUCH happier with a movement chamber.

    Movement chambers not only give really powerful upgrades to early game aliens, but they also feature the DC's ability to let you go on the offensive.

    Summary:
    SC: Good for early game aliens, bad for offense
    DC: Bad for early game aliens, good for offense
    MC: Good for early game aliens, good for offense

    MC is the best of both worlds, it only makes sense to apply it first to give you the most power at the start. Then either chamber can come next, as they are equally good.
  • sejsej Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12488Members
    MC > DC > SC all the way

    At the end of the day you need MC for your skulks, and then later for your lerks/fades.

    And cara is great for every alien apart from the skulk, its even good for attack gorges.

    When the marines get upgrades, cloaking becomes next to useless, you arnt going to kill a HA HMG train with cloaking/scent of fear, but u may kill it with vastly improved aliens due to carapace/redemption Onos, adren/cara lerks, adren/cara fades
  • HandofGodHandofGod Join Date: 2003-05-07 Member: 16114Members
    Having played as a marien a lot in the last couple of days sensory owns at the moment.

    Comms dont build any scanners to ofset the advantage. I've found skulks eating me while I've looked at the only way in to a room. Even a gorge hiding behind a tf in a room full of Mariens.

    Gives a huge bonus to any team.

    Hopefull this wil be ofset when the comms wake up. It seems a bit inbalanced at the moment.

    <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> How many times have I run down the corridor spraying LMG only to run out when I hit the <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> for the first time.

    I especially like the idea of hiding them in places <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> cannot get to. Very good point.
  • PegePege Join Date: 2002-11-27 Member: 10088Members
    I favor MC > DC > SC. SC only works right now (and certainly not always), because commanders and marines are stupid and inexperienced. Good strategies are never based on enemies stupidity and incompetence. I hardly ever see commanders use scan when people request it or drop observatory right next to a hive before attacking to negate cloaking. People don't use headphones either so they can't hear cloaked skulks and most don't seem to have "center playernames" on so they can't see nice red names of cloaked aliens. With competent and smart marines, sensory is kind of hopeless, because you need redemption/carapace and celerity/adrenaline for onos/fades. I mean, what the hell do you do with cloaked defensive fades when you can just blink next to marines to close the gap and play offensive? SC is OK for skulks and gorges, but you can't win the game with just them... I expect SC to "fade away" like it did in 1.04 when marines start using all their tools.

    Also, theres already a bad trend of "selfish gorges" who don't ask their team which chamber first, but selfisly plop down sensory even if the game is filled with skilled clanners and regulars. I've seen lots and lots of alien losses, because people just don't get into their thick heads that SC doesn't give anywhere near as good bonus to onos/fades as DC or MC does... And that unlike in 1.04, multiple onos/fades are a must if you want to win.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    edited August 2003
    The really nice thing with this discussion is that I belive that the 2.0 team has indeed succeeded in their aim to make all sensory chambers viable. Not necessarily equally viable, but it is quite possible to go all ways.

    That being said, the biggest difference gamewise is definativly sensory. If you go sensory, you negate marine MT and gain your own even better wallhack (SoF). Against non-scanning marine commanders, you also win easily. But the MT negation and wallhack is retained even if the marine commander scans a lot. Thus, you can use the sensory network to surprise the marine outposts .. this can work even offensivly, unless the commander pays for (easily chewable) observatories in each outpost.

    If you don't go sensory, the marines gets the strategic advantage of knowing where every alien are, while the aliens needs to rely on skulk parasites to track the marines .. skulks that are known to the marines at all times due to MT, of course.

    You get two VERY different games for the price on one! :-)

    As to whether to go DC or MC after sensory first ... I belive that DC is better for noob pub games, as it allows for more individual alien play, with forward DC's for healing and carapace/regen/redeem all being upgrades that does away with the need for lerk/gorge support.

    MC requires much more cooperation - each heavy alien MUST be followed by an umbra lerk and a gorge (preferably two gorges for mutual healing and rapid smackdown on marine bases). Lone aliens running around on their own will either die or be running back to hive and heal FAR to often.

    SC/MC skulks own LA marines completly inside a sensory bubble, bw.
  • NecrosisNecrosis The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
    "Good strategies are never based on enemies stupidity and incompetence"

    IMHO the successful strategy capitalises on opponent weakness. If right now that means Sensories all over the shop, then so be it.

    When I hit experienced marines and comms, I'll may have to end up changing it around. But thats just not the case right now.

    With sensory first we have the run of our areas, marines don't spot us, and if they can't spot us then they don't know where we're moving TO or FROM. We follow with def because at second hive time Comms have handed out better guns or people are getting to the stage where redeeming is handy.

    IMHO if you go movement first you're relying on everyone else on the server being *good*. Which is not the case on pub servers. Otherwise you end up with Skulks on speed, making lots of noise and moving fast but killing little. You're visible and if the marines are defending with intelligence then they'll nail you in the long corridors.

    Thus its a safer bet (right now) to go Sens-Def-Move. If you're on a clan or with friends then I'm sure your order will change but for pub play then IMHO its the only way to fly <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    And people wonder why it's impossible to quickly finish games in 2.0....

    Sensory is a purely defensive chamber, it offers no good *realistic* offensive capabilities (sensing up their base never works for very long).

    If you want to destroy the marines, you need something that will allow you to actually move in and attack.

    Matso: Adren fades don't need any kind of back up unless dealing with HA trains or turret farmed bases. Anything else is well within their ability to handle on their own. A sensory/defense fade is completely and utterly useless, as in it can't take *anything* down on it's own, at the very least requiring another skulk or fade nearby for backup. Giving fades the freedom they need allows your team to cover far more ground and keep a good eye on enemy movements (often it's the fades who realise that a HA train is headed to a hive or similar outpost, as they are always where the marines are).
  • NecrosisNecrosis The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Members, Constellation
    1-2 good players can't win the game for aliens. Sens is a defensive move but in the early game its also a very good one. You can spot the enemies, target the weakest, and more importantly you have somewhere safe to hide when planning an ambush.

    Sensory midgame or endgame is largely irrelevant at that point because they will have so many RTs that obs will be growing like grass. The 2 "good" players kill a few marines while the rest of the aliens get roasted.

    Have been in a game where a fader went movement first then spent the game going to the most isolated spots on the map, clearing an RT and telling us "vents are clear" while at the same time 8 of us are at Feedwater trying to push back a seige. Movement was real helpful because it gave us the celerity to die even faster. Def at the second hive was the only thing which saved that game, and when the map restarted I went sens first and we laid waste to the marines. IMHO defence is what the early alien game is all about. Mid-late game the marines have gls and just wipe out defences from around corners. If early game you can lay down the defences and hidey holes, then mid game they'll have so few rts that you'll stomp all over them.

    I do understand what you're getting at with movement, but on pub servers or with teams holding a rambo fade or two, movement towers are more liability than bonus on a team level <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
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