Control The Res!
Kid-A
Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 10908Members
Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 10908Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Sieges are the new JP/HMG!</div> I first read this tactic in a 1.04 post. I found it quite a useful addition, but was overrided by the JP/HMG ruch and two hive lockdowns as in 1.04 the value of resources wasn't as clear especially to public players. I can't remember who posted it but they get the credit not me.
It's res control but not as we know it. The main problem marines have is getting out resd aliens can ,even with electric structures take down rp's and put them up much quicker than the marines can respond. However there are certain spots on certain maps that allow you control a significant amount of res, by control I mean prevent the aliens from capping them, capping them yourself may be a different matter. Obviously seiges are the best way to do this. BUT if seiging was so easy you'd just seige each hive or the starting hive, the beauty of this strat is these are underused spots that aliens will not usually put a great deal of effort into defending, until they realise what you've done.
The best way to demonstrate this is use maps as examples.
Hera is a good example, because typically marines find it quite dificult, as alot of the res is far from the marine base. However with just 2 seiges you can control a massive 8 out of 10 nodes, NOT including the one in the marine start! (See attachment). So any dedicated comms with a little research you can find spots like this on most maps. On Hera I usually go for the right spot (needs welder) as the other is in a hive, with upgrade you might be able to get that one aswell.
NOTE: Also I haven't checked it fully, I know in 1.04 seiges also had a height limit meaning they couldn't target structures too high/low for them so the left spot may not be able to destroy ALL the rp's you'd think. But this is more an 'inspiration' thread.
I have lots of these maps(with and without seige positions), but no host...
It's res control but not as we know it. The main problem marines have is getting out resd aliens can ,even with electric structures take down rp's and put them up much quicker than the marines can respond. However there are certain spots on certain maps that allow you control a significant amount of res, by control I mean prevent the aliens from capping them, capping them yourself may be a different matter. Obviously seiges are the best way to do this. BUT if seiging was so easy you'd just seige each hive or the starting hive, the beauty of this strat is these are underused spots that aliens will not usually put a great deal of effort into defending, until they realise what you've done.
The best way to demonstrate this is use maps as examples.
Hera is a good example, because typically marines find it quite dificult, as alot of the res is far from the marine base. However with just 2 seiges you can control a massive 8 out of 10 nodes, NOT including the one in the marine start! (See attachment). So any dedicated comms with a little research you can find spots like this on most maps. On Hera I usually go for the right spot (needs welder) as the other is in a hive, with upgrade you might be able to get that one aswell.
NOTE: Also I haven't checked it fully, I know in 1.04 seiges also had a height limit meaning they couldn't target structures too high/low for them so the left spot may not be able to destroy ALL the rp's you'd think. But this is more an 'inspiration' thread.
I have lots of these maps(with and without seige positions), but no host...
Comments
Tanith: You can control 6/10 res with 2 seige <i>locations</i> (2 TF's but you'll need 3 sieges). See attachement.
But on most maps there are places that seem pretty harmless but if you add sieges to the equation they look alot worse. Often if your not actually AT a dual resnode or hive sieging location aliens write it off as a n00b comm. Of course who actually takes time to study maps in this way, most comm's never bother.
Yes, well that requires a good marine team. But you should still win the 'res war'. I mean it's 2.0 there is no ULTIMATE WINAZOR STRAT but as a comm you want a number of options, this is certainly a useful one.
Seen far too many commanders try and hold unholdable RTs, or sprint across a map thinking they can have a PG TF RT and turrets all up and running before the aliens twig on. And sadly that won't work in the bulk of cases.
As an alien, I can say we tend to cap early and often, get the initial burst of res, and then let the marines chase them down. Rts nearest home get top priority for defences. I'd suggest the same for a comm unless he's confident of his rush. IMHO better to concentrate on a solid defence and expand from there, rather than expand aggressively, blow all the res on half built defences miles away that get toasted, and then get beaten back to base in seconds.
Learning the maps is a good tip because you can seal off key corridors with turrets and such. Certain RTs lend themselves to being easily defended as a group, and the bigger area you control, the less corridors you need to cover. In fact with a well secured group of RTs you can afford to send one or two men out regularly on "RT denial". Just keep knocking the aliens down. Thats how being a gorge ends up - taking an easy to defend area then zipping out of it briefly to cap an RT before going back to my safe area.
Why?
First, any point that's a good res siege point is also a chokepoint. With the exception of Nancy, now gone, every map requires at least two, fairly distinct siege rooms to have any effective hope of pulling this strat off (taking one would require a different strat to be effective). Thus, you should (against a decent alien team) have to fight fairly viciously for at least one. And that ain't pretty.
Second, the first time the gorge has a res tower blow up in his face (which is REALLY funny, by the way!), the alien team will know what's up. And then you're in trouble. None of the res siege spots are easily defended, and you will have a very hard time for quite a while... Heck, even with Nancy and the uber Mess Hall, you still had a hard time holding it with a relocation, and you're having four marines spawn there every few seconds.
Third, and perhaps most importantly... You can't hit hive resource towers. On some maps, like Hera, this is okay, where resources like outside Archiving will be accesible... However, siege points in range of hives are very closely protected by aliens.
In summary, this strategy can be productive, however, it is highly dependent on a lot of trust between comm and marines, as well as pretty freakin' good marines... It's not a "lockdown" strat in the sense that, once in place, it can be easily held... You have to do it much faster than hive lockdowns.
Also, I'm 99% sure it did not "slip past"... We did post this in the "things to check" threads. A lot. Over and over.
Using this strat half-way, namely locking down one of the rooms, is often very effective... And most likely a better choice since that frees resources for more direct, cheaper offensives early on.
Also, as a final note, KungFuSquirrel designs maps so well, you can't even imagine doing this... Don't try it on Eclipse or Veil, it won't work, at all. However, feel free to try finding the siege spots on Nothing... The full strat works there.
But too bad I didn't win. No one listened and if they did they immediately suicided by going outside the door and right into the onoses stomach. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'd just like to point out that with so many comms TF + turreting just 1-2 rps this is just a imho better option as usually the spots come with at least one easily defendible rp. A general rule is that if marines can hear/see a res being muched they will save it.
And this strat is very flexible and just highlights how useful map knowledge is. Most comms that secured Vent hive might just TF it not realising hoe close they are to a dominating position.
Don't try it on Eclipse or Veil, it won't work, at all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
sorry for double posting but i need attachements
Ah Chopper Dave, yes it was his strat, I also used it in 1.04 and won once or twice. It was good becease Hera was a difficult map and reloc to Holo or even worse Process got old quickly.
In response on not on EC: 2 spots let you control 6/9 res... And one of the spots is two res + hive.
To execute this well you'll need voice comm really and decent marines who follow orders. Its best just to cap the rp's and hold them with marines till you make a profit then recycle if they get skulk eaten and just put them back. Shotguns are a good investment as the early res 'boom' means fades and onii are seen quite soon, but once they are gone you wont see then for a while.
Still, Nancy was the bestest ever. We won game after game by relocating to Mess Hall and then taking Subspace... We'd see like two fades all game.
Seen far too many commanders try and hold unholdable RTs, or sprint across a map thinking they can have a PG TF RT and turrets all up and running before the aliens twig on. And sadly that won't work in the bulk of cases.
As an alien, I can say we tend to cap early and often, get the initial burst of res, and then let the marines chase them down. Rts nearest home get top priority for defences. I'd suggest the same for a comm unless he's confident of his rush. IMHO better to concentrate on a solid defence and expand from there, rather than expand aggressively, blow all the res on half built defences miles away that get toasted, and then get beaten back to base in seconds.
Learning the maps is a good tip because you can seal off key corridors with turrets and such. Certain RTs lend themselves to being easily defended as a group, and the bigger area you control, the less corridors you need to cover. In fact with a well secured group of RTs you can afford to send one or two men out regularly on "RT denial". Just keep knocking the aliens down. Thats how being a gorge ends up - taking an easy to defend area then zipping out of it briefly to cap an RT before going back to my safe area. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting. My minor quible is that resource towers are generally so spread out that you really can't "ooze out" from one place to the next in a steady stream of defense. There really is that aspect of being all the way across the world when you are on the massive res expansion.
The only thing I do is get a TF at home, research electrical defense, then get electrical defense for all my res towers. By the time the aliens have enough beef to take down the electrical res towers with great ease, the entire team is already suited up with HA.
I think electrical defense is quite broken, it is "roughly" the equivalent of setting up the siege cannon denial, yet you also gain resources at the same time. Of coruse this only applies to the early game.
What is denial, really? Not being able to build on the res spot. Can a gorge build on an electrified res spot? Nope, and he won't have the man power early game to take it back either.
400 is the splash radius. The range is much much larger. I'm pretty sure bilebomb used to have an even bigger radius, but it's been tamed quite a bit.
It is very important to note that this is a res <i>denial</i> strat, not a res gathering strat. You still have to build nodes and defend them. I think a more economical method of res denial would be to have only one siege location and build elec res in other areas. I'd also highly recommend building the elec res area first, as sieges are much more cost effective if they actually shoot at things (duh). Building a siege farm and having it where the enemy is already somewhat established will be much better than where they are already denied. If they aren't there, you should be on the offense anyways!
I've tried this strat one or two times, with complete failure. Seems there is always one alien that just waits for onos who then takes out all my res towers and then the alien team mobs any outposts....
I even drop shotties for my marines but they can never take the onos down. However if we could take the first wave of high res aliens I'm sure you'd be in a good position.
Cargo on Tanith is even better than you suggest, as you can control 4 RT's AND the hive with 1 TF/Seige. Definately a very strategic spot for marines.
Most maps have 2-3 RTs close together. Not right on top of each other, but close enough so that you can leg it from one to the other. These are the places you want to set up a PG and expand to cover the three RTs.
Lets assume each rt has two corridors - one in and one out. Keeping them separate you'll have two turrets at each corridor, thats 4 per room and ultimately 12 for the whole area. If you pick clustered RTs, you can rule out one exit per room (since they all connect to each other). That means you can skimp on turrets or put all of them covering one door. Its a lot more economical and faster to build and hold than trying to take an RT, take another RT, and take another RT.
Once you have your 2-3 RT outpost locked down, you send out 2-3 marines to the nearest RT to it and have them GL the RT, then fall back. That'll starve out the Aliens. Once you rid them of their RT stores you'll have an easier time of it.
Splitting up from the base and taking one west RT and one east RT doesn't really work IMHO. You need to pick one and fortify its cluster, and when its solid you can expand to the other. Slow and steady. Confidence is the key strength.
A Unupgraded shotty will take down a res tower in 16 shots and less than 20 seconds. Two marines with shotties are pretty formidable for 20 res. I'm considering doing armour upgs 1 -> 3 and handing out shotties, rather than getting the upg's 'staged' 1weap, 1arm, 2weap,....
(at least for the first 10 times i see it, after that... i dunno, have some shame or somthing??)
Yeah, you *could* but you'd need a crack team who respond to orders. On a pub server its chancy, and on ANY server there's always the chance aliens will find a weak spot (happens more often that not).
IMHO you could also say "Aliens can win with three hives only" because its a real possibility if the enemy comm has blown his res.
This gave you 6 rt fully guarded with 2 tf...... very very good
Now it can get you 4.... which is still madd good....
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
BULL! How about you comm a few games before you start spouting? Yes, if you set up in these positions you will leave the enemy with at most 2 res nozzles, if you keep scanning. Further, on most of these, you will be restricted to 2, max 3 res nozzles yourself. However, the caveat is, to secure these positions is well nigh impossible, as it's always the case that at least one will be close to their hive (the single points aren't sufficient in and of themselves, and will require heavy offensives anyways).
Further, you have to secure them early to be effective... Which means early phase gates, and the hopes that you marines can hold a second res node while you get enough to drop 2 sets of tfacs with 5-6 turrets, plus 2 phase gates, research phase, two armouries, two infantry portals, two res nodes, an obs (preferably two), a tfac upgrades, at least 2 sieges, normally 3, and most likely electricity on both tfacs (this is sum resource cost, not order). At the minimum. This is all optimistic thinking, as well, since this implies no casualties, no medpacks, etc... Also, at the end of it all, you'll have fades for sure, oni probably, and all this without weapon upgrades or an armory upgrade.
Yes, it can be effective, especially if you play aggressively and use a siege point as a later game card... However, by relying on turreting up two points, you are neccessarily sacrificing marine power, and thus mobility. It's balanced, very balanced. We'll see if it is still so in 2.01, however.
Further, you have to secure them early to be effective... Which means early phase gates, and the hopes that you marines can hold a second res node while you get enough to drop 2 sets of tfacs with 5-6 turrets, plus 2 phase gates, research phase, two armouries, two infantry portals, two res nodes, an obs (preferably two), a tfac upgrades, at least 2 sieges, normally 3, and most likely electricity on both tfacs (this is sum resource cost, not order). At the minimum. This is all optimistic thinking, as well, since this implies no casualties, no medpacks, etc... Also, at the end of it all, you'll have fades for sure, oni probably, and all this without weapon upgrades or an armory upgrade.
Yes, it can be effective, especially if you play aggressively and use a siege point as a later game card... However, by relying on turreting up two points, you are neccessarily sacrificing marine power, and thus mobility. It's balanced, very balanced. We'll see if it is still so in 2.01, however. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I command quite a few thank you. Basicly did you think processing sieging was fair (since RTs are as important as hives was now)? If you do I won't argue with you. Thank you for your time.
"Lets rush them from the trenches with no covering fire" doesn't work.
If you're wondering why its hard to get close to a hive through WOLs then its because the aliens have dug in and locked down their areas tight. Tight enough that you have to bleed to take them.
Of course if you think building a defence and expanding from it is lame.......
Well, enjoy the "you lose" jingle <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"Lets rush them from the trenches with no covering fire" doesn't work.
If you're wondering why its hard to get close to a hive through WOLs then its because the aliens have dug in and locked down their areas tight. Tight enough that you have to bleed to take them.
Of course if you think building a defence and expanding from it is lame.......
Well, enjoy the "you lose" jingle <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Truetrue, maybe IRL but not in a friggin game. A game is supposed to be fun, was 2hld an effective tactic in 1.04? Yes. Was it fun? Hell no!
I actually had a pretty successful game with this tactic, this is how it was done.
It was tanith, and I immediately got the right spot indicated on the map. It was a little lucky as the aliens started at waste, but as a comm I take all the 'luck' I can get. So we capped the RP, set up TF + turrets, researched Phase tech asap while capping cargo and the rp outside SatComm. Got a few marines to patrol that area, no significant alien pushes.
Then I got the left seige position. As you can imagine aliens had capped ALL the rp's there, and had started to lame it up. Got the base up with minimal alien resistance and seiged the res points away. Then capped them. Although rp's did keep getting eaten they always got a profit and were replaced. I then put TF + turrets in base.
Now I handed out shotties to all and was researching armour. Now we went to cargo and setup a TF + seige to take down the hive (cant remember name, Fusion?). This met significant alien resistance, but no alien had saved for onii and the shotguns held them at bay. Eventually got hive down, only had 3 rt's left as aliens had took them down while I was concentrating on the hive. BUT the aliens only had 2 <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
I then had to leave, but I'm sure we would have won (As sure as you can be in NS). To finish I would have capped all the free res points, elec'ed them. Then done a JP/SG rush on SatComm (To be different), if it failed seige it. Then last hive however I wanted. When I left we had weap3, arm3, JP, adv arm, MT. So just saving for equip was what was needed.
I can also be noted aliens did not start with Sens but I had made Obs at every outpost...
Tip: Keep an eye on the 'active res node' thing that comes up, you never know when a gorge has done a sneaky sens cap.
Actually it works in a game too. It works in nearly all strat games and although it may not be FUN, its enjoyable because you're doing what frontiersmen are meant to be doing.
If you want "fun" then go kharaa, where you're not relying as much on following orders.
IMHO saying a strategy is not "fun" is like saying "Hey, this apple tastes of apple, I wanted it to be lemony". I highly doubt the existence of a "fun" strategy since most if not all rely on following orders and getting killed. IMHO NS marine "fun" is following orders and being part of a working cohesive unit.
If someone's concept of NS marine "fun" is getting a GL HA and ramboing around shooting aimlessly, while spamming "omglolol look at the flying skulk", then I tentatively suggest they may be in the wrong game.