Defense Chambers

MrHamolka · August 2003

Okay, i know the suggestion forum is down, but im just stubborn to tell you the truth.

But ill put out an idea that may help a lot with the aliens having to what seems to me a big advantage in pub. It seems to me that redemption is way to cheap...and alternate solution to this is each time you redemption back to hive it takes 10 res away...or w/e is good...because basicly a onos can run in eat a HA kill 2 others then redemption back...stay in the fortified hive(with dc's all over the place) and run back in after digesting the HA...this way redemption will wear down on your res and you'll have to wait next to the hive before they get the res...this seems like a pretty good idea to me...it just seems overly unfair that an onos under extreme fire can waste aprox. 60-80 res each trip for marines.

i see this as the problem: onos out in field with sensory up. has redemption. cant be seen. 5 marines (HA or not, the marines highest upgrades kinda, in comparrison to the onos) walk in onos eats one, kills 2. redemptions stands next to approx. 5 dc and hive. healed really quick runs out finishes the last 2. (this isnt that hard to do...i've done it and i just started not to long ago.

--Mr.Hamolka

Cheez1 · August 2003

Would you rather he spends 100 res to go onos, get killed by two shotgunners die and go back to being a skulk with 0 res and no chance to kill any tier-3/HA marines?

Redemption onos is the only way to counter marines late in the game, especially if they have heavy armor and especially when pubbing. People don't seem to realise that the onos that is redeeming 20 times late in the game would be dying 20 times instead if he had carapace or regenration. Onos are actually quite easy to kill due to their slow speed (even with celerity) and almost inability to move around and dodge or run away from a fight when outnumbered or low on health.

In short, this version of ns was playtested by skilled players for a very long time. The balance is very good and i see nothing wrong with redemption, as there are downsides to it as well (you don't stick around as long = you don't do as much damage to the marines/structures your assaulting).

I try to play marines as often as I do aliens and as far as I can tell, while annoying at times yes, redemption is about the only thing aliens have going for them, just as HA is about all marines have going for them late in game. If the marines just stick in a group with hmg/shottys the onos won't even get close enough to do anything before being redeemed (or killed since shottys can kill redemption equiped aliens easily), and it's the comm's job to scanner sweep ahead so that his marines don't get ambushed by cloaked aliens. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'>

NumbersNotFound · August 2003

I'd almost propose a 10 second "freeze time" at hive once redeemed to prevent such rapid succession of the onos, or even the onos returning to the hive as an egg which has to evolve again.

At current state it's slightly too hard to kill an onos, and when you get close to the hive itself it can be a monsterous task to get rid of them.

Of course, i wouldn't implement a solution (if one is needed) until more playing is done for AT LEAST two more weeks.

Spazmatic · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>just as HA is about all marines have going for them late in game</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Bah. While I agree that oni redemption is fine (I imagine tactics just need further adaptation), this isn't true. HA is simply oni bait. Be what they don't expect, switch it up, combined arms with jetpacks and heavies, and lots of other fun stuff.

USCMLieutenant_Ripley · August 2003

With all due respect, you have just reiterated the problem without explaining why it was not changed. The onos should have died 20 times??? Any power that gives you 20 times the staying power (as an onos!?) for the cost of 2 is obviously broken. If it was only 2 or 3 times, that would equate to balance. As you state, it's more like 20. Broken.

MrHamolka · August 2003

the fact that it being played by skillful players who probly ran hardcore and strictly followed strats only shows that pub is just going to end in headache...you arnt going to have a server full of skillful players all the time. the res was a small but eventful change....it wouldnt increase the headache of 100 res for onos it would only make each attack more important rather than a continous assault...it would inforce more teamwork within the aliens. whish we all know is needed

MrHamolka · August 2003

also about the onos dying 20 times...thats 2,000 res in comparison...also the 60-80 res one onos does....so if there are 3 onos's who redemption 20 times...should i do the math?...and what about marines late in the game? marines have no chance of surviving late in the game due to the fact that resources are scarce, sensory all over the place...an onos will eat you once you leave the base....marines wont make it out but they can fend them off for a long time, thats about it.

[e] which only means the game taking longer[/e]

Spazmatic · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>have no chance of surviving late in the game due to the fact that resources are scarce, sensory all over the place...an onos will eat you once you leave the base....marines wont make it out but they can fend them off for a long time, thats about it.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

That's not true. Jetpacks should be scouting, you should be scanning and wiping out sensories as you go too. Also, oni who aren't cloaked shouldn't get anywhere NEAR your guys. It's only a few shotgun blasts to redemption an onos, and hmgs help out there too. You won't be killing a lot, but neither will they, and remember, no one wants to fight a strategic war on their own soil (except Saddam).

andyaml · August 2003

One word: Shotguns. One good hit does a ton of damage, so a squad full of them could get an Onos away in about 5 shots or so. And, since the Shotgun does damage in one concentrated blast, there's a good chance it'll be dead when it gets back to the hive. The Redemption Onos lacks staying power, so your main goal is to get it away before it can do any damage.

And if your group gets paralyzed from a stomp, then you need to spead out more, because you shouldn't be so close together.

Teioh · August 2003

When the counter to one normal player is a team full of skilled, veteran players, you know something is not quite right.

MrHamolka · August 2003

when your down to 1 res node lets see how many times you send out a scout to die among the oc's that arnt visible until scanned. the first scout you send isnt going to make much of a difference. and thats starting to go off topic....you seem to think im saying to take redemption all away..im saying to handicap it...you guys just want to focus on it being totally removed...a handicap is needed...and if redemption has a percentage of working than its just going to **** people off (i.e. BS BS BS, I HATE TAHT, WHY ME) a better solution is for it to cost an approx. 10 res for each time...it limits the endless assault of onos's. it seems to me like you guys rather have the onos's prolonging the game. or just have a deathmatch type sequence when you play with aliens...thats basicly what it is....spawn, die, spawn, die, spawn, die...with no real consequences...or forcing team play.

andyaml · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Aug 4 2003, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> When the counter to one normal player is a team full of skilled, veteran players, you know something is not quite right.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
This isn't really true. Since a player invested 100 resources in the Onos, then they deserve the extra power they're getting, correct? Obviously, if you want to beat the Onos, you're going to have to invest in some stopping power of your own, unless you can get a big group of vanilla marines together.

Basically, what it boils down to is that you're spending resources to make sure that their big resource "purchase" goes to waste.

Epidemic · August 2003

I can see a lock coming <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'>
And redemption works more likely 4 times out of 5. Any HMG HA train with one GL guy can easily take the onos out, if they have 2 hives..

Tonzak · August 2003

Cheez! wrote:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In short, this version of ns was playtested by skilled players for a very long time.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

One playtester said this was not true at all, and unless he's lying, informed balance complaints seem very reasonable.

GREENEGGSANDHAM wrote:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>the current version you're seeing was the result of some very drastic and sudden changes made during the last week of testing. we literally had 4 days to get it to work and most of that time was spent finding bugs and getting it to work, we didn't have time to test balance issues and we've all observed the (** text removed because it talked about balance **). this isn't something no one noticed for 4 months its something we didn't have any time to test. just wait for 2.01, most of these issues should be dealt with then.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Pepe_Muffassa · August 2003

I was eaten once by a redemption onos - and he was killed right as he redemmed - and I popped out at their undefended hive. I signalled the comm who build a phaze gate - and that one redemption onos cost 150 res for the aliens (100 onos, 35 hive, 15 res node), so being eaten is not all bad <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Super_Sloth · August 2003

I agree it's frustrating to battle Redemption Onos, I don't know about having it cost resources tho, another alternative is to just give it a percentage chance of working, such as with one DC you have a 25% chance of being redeemed, 2 DC's = 50%, and 3 DC's = 75%. Or even 30, 60, 90%.

When Marines are doing their usual end-game defensive game the resources tend to be too scarce to really equip enough shotgunners, or everyone has an HMG. (You'd think 3 HMG's mowing down one Onos could kill it before it redeemed, go figure).

With a percentage chance an Onos would cause more then enough damage to make up for his occasional death. Half the time when an Onos is killed I hear "Good thing I was there long enough to get 100 res again".

Perhaps another option would be after you Redeem it takes a certain number of minutes before your Redemption is ready again, which isn't necessarily a bad idea considering most of the time would be taken up running back towards the marine base.

S3phir0th · August 2003

redemption brings u back to a hive when your health is down to a certain percentage, and because the onos has such alot of health, it is almost impossible to kill it before it redeems (shotty or gl work tho <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'> )

which is why redemp skulk is so bad due to the percentage needed for redeeming being so low the skulk dies <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> > <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'>

*or just knife the buggers <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> *

Super_Sloth · August 2003

I know how redemption works, I was simply meaning it having a chance of working, everytime you get to that level of HP where it redeems you it'll only work randomly. Most of the time it will Redeem you, but there's always that off chance that you'll keel over in the Marine's base and let them BBQ you corpse as payback for devouring them.

MrHamolka · August 2003

the time wait is another alternative...but it seems to me like they failed to concider the devouring and redemption combo. i think it would help balance(omw he said the b word) things more if running in mindlessly had a price to pay...it seems way too much of an advantage to get next to dying then getting taken out of battle without any consequence or "penalty".

Monkeybonk · August 2003

In beta: You cannot redempt when someone's in your belly.

Jaml · August 2003

Redemption/digest onos arent overpowered since theres plenty of things you can do:

1.) Never go in squads of less than 4 HA. This is the most important point. Onos are very large, hallways very narrow so only 1 onos can charge you at a time and it will surely redeem before getting to you.

2.) If your a HMG/lmg guy then fire short bursts into narrow passages before you enter them. Since the onos is so huge you will hit it for sure if its there (and in narrow hallways theres always an onos) and make it decloak. Till the onos realizes whats going on it has already redeemt.

3.) Always have a GL in your assault squad. They are onos killers and do so much damage even redemptio onos can be killed easily. And while the hmg/lmg is great for scanning long passages as stated in point 2 a gl lobbed at a corner or intersection can decloak a onos that could hide behind the corner. Just use your brain and shoot a grenade ahead of your team at corners to be sure to not get surprised by onos.

4.) If your a comm scan scan and then scan some more. Especially if your squad moves into a large room since that is not covered by point 2 and 3. In 2.0 its essential to scan and having 2-3 obs. assigned to groups 1-3 for easy selection makes it much less complicated.

So dont complain about the onos just learn to play as a team and use your brain.

SkitZoFrenic · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In beta: You cannot redempt when someone's in your belly. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Oh...no wonder...thats <span style='color:orange'>*blip*
And <i>that's</i> swear filter dodging. I'm sure you can get your point across cleaner without it.</span>

cheesehound · August 2003

Eeeh, redemption onos are fine, although I think we'd see a lot more people use things besides that instead of just charging repeatedly and redempting all the time with a marine in their belly if they simply dropped the marine whe redeemed. It's like you're killin' 'em anyhow.

MrHamolka · August 2003

so what you guys are saying you like the repeated assault of the onos...instead of inforcing caution when they redempt so that they use teamwork instead of trying to be the one man(or onos) team. (which is cs style)

LambdaProject · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Redemption onos is the only way to counter marines late in the game</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Riiight, maybe for a single onos but not for a team of aliens. Think about it 1 onos vs 6-9 marines isn't supposed to win. Try getting more of your team in there and you'll see that redemption isn't the only thing.

MrHamolka · August 2003

im a bit slow at times but if the onos redemptions 20 times and is given a random 1-3 res for each kill and kill's about 3 each time shouldnt we assume that the large some of res to become onos is accumulated quicker than you think? not to mention since he's not dying that his res flow is never ceased.

Defense Chambers

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