Look at it this way. Marines spawn now ready to fly out the door except for some ammo sup, and thats often what they do, fly out the door. I like the bundle idea more than the straight class system. Make the basic spawn marine practically useless but give some almost free bundle classes right at the beginning. Make it so that everyone wants to team up with different bundle teammates because it naturally feels stronger to do so. TF is the great example, the classes compliment so well with each other that even on pub games you dont have to FORCE anyone to play anything.
Marines need to be more tool/tech orientated with more little toys. It should be a diverse firepower team similar to a TF team. As it is now we basically see 2 types of marines, LMG and HMG marines. Make the team more diverse and you make it more interdependant.
I am guessing in the clan scene, the game is fairly well balanced at this point. It's the pub scene where the game is horribly unbalanced. Moreso in this version, then any previous one, the marines need time to work out a solid gameplan, and then go execute it. I feel in some cases, it's the map-layout that hurts the marines. The map (the name excapes me presently) where hte node close to marine start needs to be welded to get into, that map is horribly unbalanced in the alien's favor, to many nodes close to the hives, to few near the marines start. Onto particular suggestions...
1) more hp's for the obs. it is now THE most important structure past the ip's, and it is also the weakest, strengthen it, and give more "scanpower" to it or lower the "mana cost" of scans from current value's... 2) Adjust the resource model, so the aliens and marines begin with the same amount of res. On a 20 player server, the aliens begin with 250 res, marines begin with 105 (?) Since both groups now get resources equally (assuming same # of rt's), you hurt the marines by starting them with less res. 10 aliens can get 4 rt's, and lvl 3 upgrade in the first minute of the game without any penalty in time for them getting hive #2, marines still have 1 rt and maybe a couple of better guns in that same timeframe, that is just wrong. This wasnt an issue really in earlier versions as the res model was different. I am not sure which way you would want to adjust it, I think marines slightly up, aliens slightly down. Aliens now do not have to rely on 1 person to get them their upgrades/rt's/hives, the marines still have to..
I did not know that <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
I agree, 30 res is a ridiculously large amount for an upgrade that really isn't that nice.
And it also takes....what....a minute to research?
Edit: Nice thinking there Sing....
I'd like to add onto your thought there...
Close Combat Soldier-has a shotgun and cannot carry pistol like Long range, but he also has a katana <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Eh Guys where is the balance for the aliens if there is a troop of 4-5 Heavy´s with hmg GL or Shoty. The aliens dont have a Chance to come close. So where is the Balnace here ?. Heh Mods close this balance Thread they dont know what they are talking about.
The counter to squads of heavies is an onos with redemption. Even WITH a shotgun, it's near impossible to kill an onos with redemption. All you have to do is eat a heavy armor and there...one less heavy to worry about.
I think marine tech needs a little reworking. They are meant to be stronger in squads, right? Yet the only "stat booster" ability a grunt gets is a welder - the only advantage that you have as a squad is that you have more guns to bear. On the other hand, Kharaa (supposedly the team of individuals) get umbra, healspray, primal scream and stomp.
Also, the marines' tech is limited. Whereas Kharaa have five classes (each with a different function), marines have LA, JP and HA. In other words, "Standard Class", "Light Scout Class" and "Tank Class". Not really much diversity there. In addition, JP just isn't viable anymore. I'm finding that unless the marine team can tech up to HA quickly, they won't stand a chance, not even with armour and weapons upgrades.
I want to see electrc RTs improved. A couple of skulks with gorge support take it out in no time; I find that the elec RT usually doesn't live long enough to work off the extra cost. It's more efficient to set up a minor turret farm.
I don't want to see the Kharaa change all that much, they're more or less perfect. It's just the marines that are a little lacking.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Raist666+Aug 6 2003, 03:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Raist666 @ Aug 6 2003, 03:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Haha. In the New Version you could not redem an Marine with you to the Hive. Then you have an Invincible Heavy Train that no Alien could destroy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You have to realize that, to defeat a strategy that requires a lot of teamwork, you have to use teamwork yourself. An skilled Onos supported by a Lerk and several Gorges is very effective against heavy armor trains.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Hmm. Amazing how people don't see the previous 'balance discussion' threads, and the fact that they've been getting <span style='color:red'>*Locked.*</span>
Isn't it funny how history repeats itself, when we don't pay attention to it?
(Additionally, 2.01 is currently in the BETA stage. It is not the final patch, and a number of the changes in 2.01a may very well be removed in its next incarnation, as they apparently did not properly address the actual problems in 'competition-level' play, simply weakening the early-game aliens; which, again, was apparently not the unbalancing factor.
Reiteration: 2.01 is NOT complete. It is still in testing, which means the changes are in-flux.)
Comments
Look at it this way. Marines spawn now ready to fly out the door except for some ammo sup, and thats often what they do, fly out the door. I like the bundle idea more than the straight class system. Make the basic spawn marine practically useless but give some almost free bundle classes right at the beginning. Make it so that everyone wants to team up with different bundle teammates because it naturally feels stronger to do so. TF is the great example, the classes compliment so well with each other that even on pub games you dont have to FORCE anyone to play anything.
Marines need to be more tool/tech orientated with more little toys. It should be a diverse firepower team similar to a TF team. As it is now we basically see 2 types of marines, LMG and HMG marines. Make the team more diverse and you make it more interdependant.
1) more hp's for the obs. it is now THE most important structure past the ip's, and it is also the weakest, strengthen it, and give more "scanpower" to it or lower the "mana cost" of scans from current value's...
2) Adjust the resource model, so the aliens and marines begin with the same amount of res. On a 20 player server, the aliens begin with 250 res, marines begin with 105 (?) Since both groups now get resources equally (assuming same # of rt's), you hurt the marines by starting them with less res. 10 aliens can get 4 rt's, and lvl 3 upgrade in the first minute of the game without any penalty in time for them getting hive #2, marines still have 1 rt and maybe a couple of better guns in that same timeframe, that is just wrong. This wasnt an issue really in earlier versions as the res model was different. I am not sure which way you would want to adjust it, I think marines slightly up, aliens slightly down. Aliens now do not have to rely on 1 person to get them their upgrades/rt's/hives, the marines still have to..
I did not know that <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
I agree, 30 res is a ridiculously large amount for an upgrade that really isn't that nice.
And it also takes....what....a minute to research?
Edit: Nice thinking there Sing....
I'd like to add onto your thought there...
Close Combat Soldier-has a shotgun and cannot carry pistol like Long range, but he also has a katana <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ehh....just for fun.
Heavy Train that no Alien could destroy.
Also, the marines' tech is limited. Whereas Kharaa have five classes (each with a different function), marines have LA, JP and HA. In other words, "Standard Class", "Light Scout Class" and "Tank Class". Not really much diversity there. In addition, JP just isn't viable anymore. I'm finding that unless the marine team can tech up to HA quickly, they won't stand a chance, not even with armour and weapons upgrades.
I want to see electrc RTs improved. A couple of skulks with gorge support take it out in no time; I find that the elec RT usually doesn't live long enough to work off the extra cost. It's more efficient to set up a minor turret farm.
I don't want to see the Kharaa change all that much, they're more or less perfect. It's just the marines that are a little lacking.
Heavy Train that no Alien could destroy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to realize that, to defeat a strategy that requires a lot of teamwork, you have to use teamwork yourself. An skilled Onos supported by a Lerk and several Gorges is very effective against heavy armor trains.
Isn't it funny how history repeats itself, when we don't pay attention to it?
(Additionally, 2.01 is currently in the BETA stage. It is not the final patch, and a number of the changes in 2.01a may very well be removed in its next incarnation, as they apparently did not properly address the actual problems in 'competition-level' play, simply weakening the early-game aliens; which, again, was apparently not the unbalancing factor.
Reiteration: 2.01 is NOT complete. It is still in testing, which means the changes are in-flux.)