I agree that the bilebomb trajectory/range for the gorge seems to be pathetic compared to the earlier fade use of it.
I would suggest (although the suggestions forum is closed, I know) that in the next open beta 2.0X version that the gorge bilebomb be given 150% or 200% it's current muzzle velocity, and see how that helps with farms. Maybe tie how long the gorge holds fire to the muzzle velocity <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
imo, both bilebomb AND even the GL need range boosts
while we're at it, STs need to fire 1.5 times as fast as they currently do imo, a.k.a. 3 attacks per scan instead of 2 (but thats for another thread)
all anti building weps in this game need a definite boost now that OCs and Turrets are VERY VERY STRONG
especially bilebomb.....either give it longer range (aka faster speed) or up the arc trajectory like it used to be back in beta (I think it had a higher arc in beta.....wasn't that one of the changelogs, that the arc got lowered or something? )
None of this lerk/gorge, gorge/onos strategy. You need to go, en masse, and pile in. So your onos dies. Shame. We're talking endgame - you have res to spare. Lerks with adrenaline can Scream and Umbra, so you're all moving at a good speed and with adrenalised umbra you should have faaaar faaaar less bullets to worry about.
First objectives - the TF, RT, IP or the Obs. With the Tf down, the rush is easy. With the obs down, 2 gorges can have a sensory up v fast with adequate distraction provided by everyone else. And when that happens skulks can effectively walk right on top of the tf and blow themselves to kingdom come. Once their RT is down, they either try to build a new one or suffer on with existing points. If you're piling on while they try to build, then you're maximising the starve damage. If the IP is down, they spawn in slower, and that means skulk bombs become devastating. REMEMBER, coordinate which structure gets hit first.
If you cannot skulk bomb IN BASE, then get as close as you can and do peripheral damage. That forces the marines back, and then lerks only have one big mass to aim at. Adrenaline. Spam spam spam. Everyone goes in. Split up if you have to. 3 skulk bombs spread out can annihilate a base of its personnel, meaning the subsequent rush works.
Sometime rines have a very well locked down base, but if you hit and run from various exits and COORDINATE your attacks, the hive goes down faster. Coordinate the whole team at once, and things get easier. Once you dent their population, you can keep pushing and pushing. If you give marines any slack, they'll just dig in harder.
Remember, coordinate efforts, and that no one person nor one species of kharaa will ever crack a base.
I think half the problem is that Onos aren't the game finishers they once were. I think if aliens have 3 hives, and enough res for more than a few Onos they have pretty much won, and it should be possible to quickly trash marine structures.
So, could try improving Onos 3rd hive ability. Maybe make charge do dbl damage verses structures (sort of makes sense that it would do more damage to fixed installations in my mind). Or maybe give Onos a xenocide abilty. They use all those stomach gases to make a huge, building smashing explosion that can destroy nearby turrets, or something.
Or make Onos blow up when they die (stomach gases again). Not as powerful an explosion as above, but still enough to cause a bit more destruction in the marine. This might make Onos/redemeption a bit his popular too.
Yeah, I know S&I is closed for a reason, I'll shut up now.
8 onos maybe a newbie strat, but it will still be effective.
8 carapaced onos will take down any defense I have seen in a pubby game - it is a simple matter of numbers. One onos comes in and cops fire from 12 turrets and 7 marines. And dies.
8 Oni charge in and split the fire by 8. Note also that turrets drop almost instantaneously to charging onos - so that damage will drop off sharply - esp once marines start dying and staying dead since the ENTIRE ALIEN team is focussing their force on it.
That was just to make a point - now consider only 2 oni, and a properly designed and mixed assault squad working as a team - it isn't even a discussion.
Turret farms in normal game course are less of an issue - they have to be less concentrated or the marines will lose the map control and tech race, assuming aliens know what theyre doing. And anyway - if turrets are so damn powerful, why the hell do aliens need to be nerfed? Turrets should win every game...
<!--QuoteBegin--Poofat+Aug 9 2003, 01:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Poofat @ Aug 9 2003, 01:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I had a 3 hour game on tanith, where we were marines, and holed up in our base. Three grenade launchers, Two TFs with turrets, 2 Armories, the resnode, and a crazy load of turrets. We got so much res we finished ALL the upgrades, and then outfitted everyone with heavies. It was hard to drop anything (apparently there is a structure limit, and droppables count as structures?) We didn't get very far though, untill we were overpowered outside the base. Eventually the aliens F4ed. I have a picture, but I can't post it unless there is a way to upload to the forum, because my server is too whimpy.
Unfortunatley, I cannot take credit for this glorious farm. To all those who say the aliens just needed coordination, 3 gls constantly spamming the doors kills everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know what, Poofat, I participated in the exact same style of turtling in ns_veil. 2 armories (like you had, one upper level, one lower), 2 TFs etc. Only difference is we had 5 IPs for quick spawn and 6 (!!) GLs (you could have bought 3 more easily with your 200 RP). Round lasted 3 hours until aliens quit. Otherwice the site was strategically like yours: 2 nice corners so gorges/lerks/fades cant bile/spore/acid, but granades can bounce off and reach the end of the corridors...
Latest addition: And that just about gave me an idea of a good way to fix marine end-game llamatity: make BBs act like granades by allowing them to bounce off walls (give more proportion too so they will actually fly). That way gorges could do the same as GLers with their BBs and negate marine defenses around corners in a stalemate. Anyone likes the idea?
Endgame turret farms... who cares? Honestly. If it's endgame, you control all the resources on the map, have all the hives... you've already won.
But interestingly enough, one of the most effective ways of finishing off these bases is xenocide rushes. For one thing, it annoys the hell out of the marines (as soon as they spawn, some skulk smears them all over the wall), and it does damage to all structures in the blast radius. You just need a few fades\onos outside to contain the marines, and you let the explosive packages of death do their work.
They wanted to fix a problem, so they did it twice. They lowered the cost and upped the accuracy by too much. They should have found a good medium :-\ But whatever, maybe marines won't tf and drag out games after a while.
1)Get carapace if you need it. 2)You are a skulk grenade. So be sure to cook yourself off! In other words, press the fire button BEFORE being in front of the structures. This way you'll blow up just as you arrive close to it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know what, Poofat, I participated in the exact same style of turtling in ns_veil. 2 armories (like you had, one upper level, one lower), 2 TFs etc. Only difference is we had 5 IPs for quick spawn and 6 (!!) GLs (you could have bought 3 more easily with your 200 RP). Round lasted 3 hours until aliens quit. Otherwice the site was strategically like yours: 2 nice corners so gorges/lerks/fades cant bile/spore/acid, but granades can bounce off and reach the end of the corridors... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was very hard to place ANYTHING, and I got the structure limit message several times. I had to spam the welder key just to get one or two to drop. But yes, having 6 GLs would have allowed us to produce more spam 2 left door, 2 right door, 2 sweeping (left, left of rt, right of rt, right). To all the people who say this is possible to overcome, you do not realize how much damage was being projected onto this doorway. 8 cara onos might get in, but the gls would divert all fire at the first one, and the second one would march right on to a crazy load of grenades.
<!--QuoteBegin--Shrike30+Aug 8 2003, 11:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shrike30 @ Aug 8 2003, 11:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fire a trail of umbra into the ground ahead of your squad... it stops 3 out of 4 bullets (or something like that) and helps out a lot with buildings. Mix this in with primal screaming, and they can tear down buildings pretty fast.
The only problem with this is that it STILL doesn't work against a HUGE mass of turrets, and grenade launchers screw it up pretty badly (since all of the aliens are bunched up in the umbra). A single marine with a GL can end an Onos pretty quickly using a GL, and those skulks who were running with it just get chopped.
Bilebombing gorges work pretty well too, if you can get them into cover to fire on the turrets.
However, i think that the real solution involves some sort of turret per area or turret per factory cap, in all honesty. The most turrets i've seen in a room to date (i was a marine, so counting wasn't hard) was 86, with 7 sieges. There comes a point where some sort of limit is necessary, people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Good idea, except your forgetting grenade launchers, HA, the works. Ive tried every angle of getting rid of the turrets and I just can't I had to stop playing at my favorite server because all the marine commanders realize how great turrets are. Its bogus.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> None of this lerk/gorge, gorge/onos strategy. You need to go, en masse, and pile in. So your onos dies. Shame. We're talking endgame - you have res to spare. Lerks with adrenaline can Scream and Umbra, so you're all moving at a good speed and with adrenalised umbra you should have faaaar faaaar less bullets to worry about. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm... I told you about the example where three Onos, two skulks, and a Gorge went in at once. Sure- it wasn't EVERYONE in the game and we didn't have umbra or scream... but in a public server that's as good as you can get. We did jack crap as far as damage goes. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Okay- let's pretend we could have had Lerks screaming and Umbraing and everyone on our side all coordinated. For one thing, we still have a limited amount of time in there. With all the Onos and confusion and such everyone has to attack <u>buildings</u> to get a lasting effect, and on that note we must DESTROY them no matter what. I suppose we could tell half the team to go for the armory, the other half to go for a phase gate.
Perhaps that could work. The big issue is it's far far too hard to set up and IMPOSSIBLE to set up in a pub server. I'm all for games being balanced based on high-level play, but if high-level play has one option to counter a strategy and that option is impossibly difficult to execute then there's a problem. I remember hearing somewhere that aliens aren't supposed to have to coordinate at the Marine's level in the first place.
<b>HERE'S THE PERFECT SOLUTION!!!!</b>
I finally figured it out- it was so obvious. It works in RTSs, and it would work fine here. <b>MAKE RES NODES GIVE OUT LIMITED RESOURCES</b>. Yeah, you heard me. And why not? Part of the problem of turret farms is that since the commander has an undending flow of resources any gains made by the aliens are abolished.
This way I believe a primary node should run out after 30 minutes. Perhaps a secondary mode would last an hour. Is that unreasonable? No. The only problem is that in it's current state NS 2.0 facilitates alien expansions too much. Marines need to be allowed to expand too.
<b>THE OTHER PERFECT SOLUTION</b>
This has already been mentioned- turret farms allowing a limited amount of turrets. How much do turret factories cost anyways?
Either way- why does it fix the problem? It allows for cheap turrets after the initial turret factory investment- promoting building defense at expansions and such. But once you fill out that turret limit, you need to provide another initial investment to create more. Since I don't know the turret factory's cost, I'm not sure how well this would work. But combined with limited resources the choice of where to put a turret factory would be far more strategic.
Again- these are all just random thoughts. I've played a lot of NS recently, and at that since 2.0 release. I still don't consider myself anywhere near an expert. It's obvious what the big problems are when you see them as consistently as I do- much like in Warcraft III version 1.03 where you would see mass casters in every game with Orc. It was clearly a problem. I have no idea if my solutions would work- I'm just throwing them out there as something to think about. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Without actually becoming part of this argument, I thought I make a note about umbra.
1.0x - Umbra blocked 88% of bullets, lasted about 10 seconds, and sprayed around the lerk so the lerk was protected as well as his teammates by doing it
2.0 - Umbra blocked 75% of bullets, lasted about 2 seconds, and you have to aim at the floor where your teammates will be in 3 seconds for it to do any good.
2.01c - Umbra blocks 50% of bullets, lasts about 2 seconds, etc...
In short - Umbra isn't as helpful as it used to be. And a lerk can just barely continuously spam Umbra in 2.0 if they have adren and don't fly.
one word: umbra <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OMG! BILEBOMB! OMG! UMBRA! OMG! ONOS RUSH! OMG! XENO RUNS! OMG! The game should <b>NOT</b> have to be played like this, i mean really.
That marine start is the worst from the alien's point of view, as it's very easy to turtle it. (Lots of room well away from the doors where you can put your important structures.. narrow hallways that make it very difficult for other aliens to approach, etc.) However, there are some solutions.
Step 1: When attacking turret farms, explain to the people going onos that Redeem will do them no good - they'll redeem before they can do anything. Step 2: Plan your attack. This is probably the hardest step on pubs as it requires people be patient. Outside the base, form up so that the onos go in first. Explain to the onos that they're not the attack force, they're just the cover. Behind the onos is the gorge who can healspamming the onos so that, coupled with regeneration, the onos lasts long enough to get all the way into base and out of the way for the main attack force. Your main attack force is fades and skulks. Fades will ideally blink to places where the other structures (like the CC) provide them some cover for the turret fire. Skulks xenocide to hopefully catch a GL. In the far back sits the lerk, to spam umbra and primal scream as much as he can. Step 3: Send in the bait. Someone has to go in and get the GL's firing. The alien team should be getting resources out the wazoo, so don't be terrified to send in a "bait" onos to die or redeem. Step 4: As soon as the second grenade goes off, the rest of the team charges. Hopefully they should get in just as the GL has turned his attention to reload.
The onos' job is to get in and get the hell out of the way so the fades and skulks can hit their points. Use charge to take down turrets if possible, use devour and that super long tongue of the Onos to suck in a heavy armor if possible. True, the onos will probably die and the HA will be back out, but it means he's out of the fight in the meantime. The gorges' job is to get in behind the onos with healspray so the onos can do more damage, but once in start landing bilebombs on the turrets, as they're likely to go down quickest. In that particular map, I find that sometimes you can sneak a gorge in around the res tower giving you extra protection while you bilebomb. Although if he can spot the observatory, by all means try to take it out. Commanders tend not to notice when the obseveratory is gone quite as quickly as they do specific turrets. The skulks' job is to xenocide -- preferably on a guy with a GL, and then return back to the staging area as fast as possible, where they start their upgrades for the next run. The fades' job is to get in behind the sulks and find cover among the marines upgrade structures. Take out a GL if at all possible, otherwise, just try and stay out of turret fire while doing damage. Finally, once they've all come in and the turrets are distracted, the lerk follows up by dropping a set of spores on the IP for anybody who pops back in, and spamming scream and umbra as much as possible for the gorge.
With 8 aliens, if all you manage to take out is 3 turrets, you've cost them some res, so are a little ahead of the game, that's of course assuming they didn't use medpacks or lose anybody or anything else. Of course, your onos cost you alot of res, but that's okay, because your skulk bombs didn't cost you much at all, so just reverse who goes skulk and who goes onos.
On the other end of the scale, too often I see these stalemates and part of the reason they last so long is because the marine team doesn't take active measures to try to push back. GL spamming may protect your base, but really won't get you anywhere. GL spamming followed by a fast strike team of JP/SG can allow the marines to push the aliens back. If a small, fast group of marines can break out of the turtle, there's a possibility of taking a back route to a hive, setting up a phase gate, and opening the game wide up again. Even if they don't make it, it will often distract the aliens long enough for a larger force to expand beyond the base.
I don't look as stalemates as non-fun. I look at them as examples of poor playing on both sides. (And in the heat of action, I'll readily admit I'm one of those not thinking things through well enough)
get REGEN instead of redeam and retreat when your at half health. then regen then attack.. rinse and repeat .Ive never taken redemp once as onos. and regen is only not as good when attacking the last base with rines and turrets guarding it
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Step 3: Send in the bait. Someone has to go in and get the GL's firing. The alien team should be getting resources out the wazoo, so don't be terrified to send in a "bait" onos to die or redeem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
GL spam is continual. I've managed to have grenade spam in one corridor going for 25 minutes consecutively, only stopping when one marine needed to go to the toilet. Soon picked up again though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Step 4: As soon as the second grenade goes off, the rest of the team charges. Hopefully they should get in just as the GL has turned his attention to reload.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never need to reload, if they know that you can stand next to armory and hit use. This way you NEVER have to reload the GL and can keep continually spamming for as long as you like.
I say this again, you have NOT played a professional turret farmer. The turrets aren't the problem here, the GL spam is. You will NEVER EVER get close enough to do a thing to the turrets.
"I say this again, you have NOT played a professional turret farmer. The turrets aren't the problem here, the GL spam is. You will NEVER EVER get close enough to do a thing to the turrets"
I've seen it done. I've also seen the cooperative play on pub servers ESPECIALLY when people get bored of bouncing off farms and decide to work together.
If people don't cooperate, thats not the mods fault. No "one player" nor "one species" will break a farm. Otherwise the game gets real boring real quickly.
GL spam? Onos go first, take the hits, people come in behind. Takes a bit of work but all things do.
On Pub servers, players learn, or they lose. IMHO the answer isn't a broad sweeping change just so uncoordinated attacks actually work.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've seen it done. I've also seen the cooperative play on pub servers ESPECIALLY when people get bored of bouncing off farms and decide to work together.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, you've never seen a professional idiot do this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If people don't cooperate, thats not the mods fault. No "one player" nor "one species" will break a farm. Otherwise the game gets real boring real quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know, but umbra doesn't do anything to GL's, and the GL splash damage will kill ALL lower lifeforms in 1 hit or less.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->GL spam? Onos go first, take the hits,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll just cut you off right here, the onos CAN'T do this because their hitbox is bugged. Grenades actually rarely hit an onos (if ever) so they still go and smash the aliens BEHIND them. Onos rarely get hit by grenades for this odd reason, but it works against the aliens because the lesser lifeforms are all butchered. The onos then either gets butchered by the turrets or shotguns. I think you need to play a GOOD turret farmer/GL spammer. Then you'll see this "If aliens..blah blah" is utter rubbish.
I'm not saying that the TF won't go down, eventually it will, but it will be a couple of hours if it does.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On Pub servers, players learn, or they lose. IMHO the answer isn't a broad sweeping change just so uncoordinated attacks actually work. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uncoordinated attacks aren't a problem, the fact all alien lifeforms but onos are massacred WELL before they get NEAR a turret farm is.
Incidently, grenade damage in 2.01b is 125, makes it easier to TF hole up than in normal 2.0. That is what I spend most of my time playing.
havent had this problem on the servers i play in, mainly because each map lasts 60 mins and then it auto changes, team with most ress ports is declared the winner at the end of the stale mate. As the result all the turret farmers realise all their effort goes to waste as the aliens smply wait it out. And so it does not happen .
Its pretty stupid for an admin not to put a timer rotation on Maps.
on the contrary.. we should look at it from another angle... what is the counter to onos.. other than mass turrets?? if we need to defend hives... res....ANYTHING it must be done with mass turrets.... there is simply no other counter to onos... even electrifying wont kill an onos in time...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> get REGEN instead of redeam and retreat when your at half health. then regen then attack.. rinse and repeat .Ive never taken redemp once as onos. and regen is only not as good when attacking the last base with rines and turrets guarding it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you understand- you don't last long enough to walk in the room, do ANYTHING, then walk out. You walk in, run to the armory, gore it once, and redeem. Sure- without redeem I would have lasted for like 130 health more. Maybe I could have gored the building again. Then I wait 2-5 minutes for 100 more res. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
You've never taken Redemption with Onos? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> I suppose if you don't want to have the most powerful killer constatly and generate 100s of res worth of advantage over the marines then that's just fine.
That people fail to read the posts in a topic is the worst from the sane forum reader's point of view, as it's very easy to annoy them. (Lots of people read the first post and then post the same old stuff that has been discussed before, etc.) However, there are some solutions.
Step 1: Read the bloody topic and replies. Step 2: Plan your post. This is probably the hardest step on boards as it requires people be patient. Once you have read, and comprehended the posts and discussions offered, prepare your counter argument. Step 3: Preview your post and weed out any grammatical and spelling errors. Step 4: After all that, you too can be a productive member of a forum, instead of being redundant.
<!--QuoteBegin--SDJASON+Aug 10 2003, 10:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJASON @ Aug 10 2003, 10:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> on the contrary.. we should look at it from another angle... what is the counter to onos.. other than mass turrets?? if we need to defend hives... res....ANYTHING it must be done with mass turrets.... there is simply no other counter to onos... even electrifying wont kill an onos in time...
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Multiple people shooting at it will take it down. I hear shotguns are good for this. Remember that if the Marine has no extra equipment the Onos is basically just teleporting the Marine back to his base... meanwhile the Onos' 100 res has already been invested.
Does an Onos make up for it's 100 res resource-wise vs. the marines? Not usually. It just has super-teleport-marines-back-to-infantry-portal-power. And it's far from unkillable- except with Redemption. That's another issue. I think Redemption is overpowered, generating a huge resource advantage on the aliens' part and changing several fundamentals of the resource model. But it might be designed like that. I don't know.
"Once again, you've never seen a professional idiot do this."
Idiot's fault, not the mods. If they don't work together, they cant blame the game.
"I know, but umbra doesn't do anything to GL's, and the GL splash damage will kill ALL lower lifeforms in 1 hit or less."
Umbra stops the turrets so that the onos can get past the room entrance and draw attention and GL fire. Stomp stops the GL spam, sometimes enough to get aliens in.
"I'll just cut you off right here, the onos CAN'T do this because their hitbox is bugged."
If you've two onos leading the train (perhaps I should start calling onos plural oni, for clarification) then the grenade more often detonates on the Onos. I realise the hitbox is not perfect but when oni get into a room they tend to attract spam.
"I think you need to play a GOOD turret farmer/GL spammer. Then you'll see this "If aliens..blah blah" is utter rubbish."
I see, so just because I'm not complaining about a 30 minute uncoordinated push into base, that somehow means the players I face aren't good? There's nothing wrong with the calibre of the people I play against, and I find it cheap that someone is implying they're not good in their absence. You don't hear anyone calling you a nub alien just because you can't crack a base, so I'd appreciate it if you don't imply I play nubs.
Yes it takes time to crack a base. If there was some magic strat the broke a base in seconds, the game would be pointless. Marines would be unable to hold any point on the map because you'd just use the exploit to crack their base. At the same time I don't presume to know all the strats. For example, I've not mentioned the idea of leaving the marines alone so that they push out and allow you to cut them off.
I've been on the marine side and seen grenade spam at work - continuous spam. And the onos still get into base, the strategy goes awol and suddenly there's fades and everything pouring in through the door.
"fact all alien lifeforms but onos are massacred WELL before they get NEAR a turret farm is."
Which frankly I've never seen. you need to get in the door to see a real turret farm, turret farms outside of base just get levelled because you've to go out TO them.
"Incidently, grenade damage in 2.01b is 125, makes it easier to TF hole up than in normal 2.0. That is what I spend most of my time playing."
Well IMHO those are still beta patches, so *shrug*.
Use the Onos and gorges, covered my umbra to take out as many Turrets as you can and use fades to by pass them to get into the base and mix things up. It takes timing and team work, but its not impossible.
Most times a Farm seems to happen on the servers I am on, the Comm is ejected and a marine who knows how lame a Farm is, recycles most of them!
Where do you think the Marines get the res to replace their stuff from? Stupid skulks running in and dying. Yes, it IS hard to break a *well made* turretfarm with GL spam but not impossible. It just takes teamwork, resources and patience.
Oh, and it also takes people realising that redemption Onos sucks at finishing the game. In this cas,e a regen Onos will be much more valuable.
Comments
I would suggest (although the suggestions forum is closed, I know) that in the next open beta 2.0X version that the gorge bilebomb be given 150% or 200% it's current muzzle velocity, and see how that helps with farms. Maybe tie how long the gorge holds fire to the muzzle velocity <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
while we're at it, STs need to fire 1.5 times as fast as they currently do imo, a.k.a. 3 attacks per scan instead of 2 (but thats for another thread)
all anti building weps in this game need a definite boost now that OCs and Turrets are VERY VERY STRONG
especially bilebomb.....either give it longer range (aka faster speed) or up the arc trajectory like it used to be back in beta (I think it had a higher arc in beta.....wasn't that one of the changelogs, that the arc got lowered or something? )
Cooperation.
None of this lerk/gorge, gorge/onos strategy. You need to go, en masse, and pile in. So your onos dies. Shame. We're talking endgame - you have res to spare. Lerks with adrenaline can Scream and Umbra, so you're all moving at a good speed and with adrenalised umbra you should have faaaar faaaar less bullets to worry about.
First objectives - the TF, RT, IP or the Obs. With the Tf down, the rush is easy. With the obs down, 2 gorges can have a sensory up v fast with adequate distraction provided by everyone else. And when that happens skulks can effectively walk right on top of the tf and blow themselves to kingdom come. Once their RT is down, they either try to build a new one or suffer on with existing points. If you're piling on while they try to build, then you're maximising the starve damage. If the IP is down, they spawn in slower, and that means skulk bombs become devastating. REMEMBER, coordinate which structure gets hit first.
If you cannot skulk bomb IN BASE, then get as close as you can and do peripheral damage. That forces the marines back, and then lerks only have one big mass to aim at. Adrenaline. Spam spam spam. Everyone goes in. Split up if you have to. 3 skulk bombs spread out can annihilate a base of its personnel, meaning the subsequent rush works.
Sometime rines have a very well locked down base, but if you hit and run from various exits and COORDINATE your attacks, the hive goes down faster. Coordinate the whole team at once, and things get easier. Once you dent their population, you can keep pushing and pushing. If you give marines any slack, they'll just dig in harder.
Remember, coordinate efforts, and that no one person nor one species of kharaa will ever crack a base.
So, could try improving Onos 3rd hive ability. Maybe make charge do dbl damage verses structures (sort of makes sense that it would do more damage to fixed installations in my mind). Or maybe give Onos a xenocide abilty. They use all those stomach gases to make a huge, building smashing explosion that can destroy nearby turrets, or something.
Or make Onos blow up when they die (stomach gases again). Not as powerful an explosion as above, but still enough to cause a bit more destruction in the marine. This might make Onos/redemeption a bit his popular too.
Yeah, I know S&I is closed for a reason, I'll shut up now.
8 onos maybe a newbie strat, but it will still be effective.
8 carapaced onos will take down any defense I have seen in a pubby game - it is a simple matter of numbers. One onos comes in and cops fire from 12 turrets and 7 marines. And dies.
8 Oni charge in and split the fire by 8. Note also that turrets drop almost instantaneously to charging onos - so that damage will drop off sharply - esp once marines start dying and staying dead since the ENTIRE ALIEN team is focussing their force on it.
That was just to make a point - now consider only 2 oni, and a properly designed and mixed assault squad working as a team - it isn't even a discussion.
Turret farms in normal game course are less of an issue - they have to be less concentrated or the marines will lose the map control and tech race, assuming aliens know what theyre doing. And anyway - if turrets are so damn powerful, why the hell do aliens need to be nerfed? Turrets should win every game...
Unfortunatley, I cannot take credit for this glorious farm. To all those who say the aliens just needed coordination, 3 gls constantly spamming the doors kills everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what, Poofat, I participated in the exact same style of turtling in ns_veil. 2 armories (like you had, one upper level, one lower), 2 TFs etc. Only difference is we had 5 IPs for quick spawn and 6 (!!) GLs (you could have bought 3 more easily with your 200 RP). Round lasted 3 hours until aliens quit. Otherwice the site was strategically like yours: 2 nice corners so gorges/lerks/fades cant bile/spore/acid, but granades can bounce off and reach the end of the corridors...
Latest addition: And that just about gave me an idea of a good way to fix marine end-game llamatity: make BBs act like granades by allowing them to bounce off walls (give more proportion too so they will actually fly). That way gorges could do the same as GLers with their BBs and negate marine defenses around corners in a stalemate. Anyone likes the idea?
But interestingly enough, one of the most effective ways of finishing off these bases is xenocide rushes. For one thing, it annoys the hell out of the marines (as soon as they spawn, some skulk smears them all over the wall), and it does damage to all structures in the blast radius. You just need a few fades\onos outside to contain the marines, and you let the explosive packages of death do their work.
( i think these types of threads about turrets should stop now ) we get the points that its anoying and all, but we cant do nofin bout it.
They wanted to fix a problem, so they did it twice. They lowered the cost and upped the accuracy by too much. They should have found a good medium :-\ But whatever, maybe marines won't tf and drag out games after a while.
1)Get carapace if you need it.
2)You are a skulk grenade. So be sure to cook yourself off! In other words, press the fire button BEFORE being in front of the structures. This way you'll blow up just as you arrive close to it.
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It was very hard to place ANYTHING, and I got the structure limit message several times. I had to spam the welder key just to get one or two to drop. But yes, having 6 GLs would have allowed us to produce more spam 2 left door, 2 right door, 2 sweeping (left, left of rt, right of rt, right). To all the people who say this is possible to overcome, you do not realize how much damage was being projected onto this doorway. 8 cara onos might get in, but the gls would divert all fire at the first one, and the second one would march right on to a crazy load of grenades.
The only problem with this is that it STILL doesn't work against a HUGE mass of turrets, and grenade launchers screw it up pretty badly (since all of the aliens are bunched up in the umbra). A single marine with a GL can end an Onos pretty quickly using a GL, and those skulks who were running with it just get chopped.
Bilebombing gorges work pretty well too, if you can get them into cover to fire on the turrets.
However, i think that the real solution involves some sort of turret per area or turret per factory cap, in all honesty. The most turrets i've seen in a room to date (i was a marine, so counting wasn't hard) was 86, with 7 sieges. There comes a point where some sort of limit is necessary, people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good idea, except your forgetting grenade launchers, HA, the works. Ive tried every angle of getting rid of the turrets and I just can't I had to stop playing at my favorite server because all the marine commanders realize how great turrets are. Its bogus.
None of this lerk/gorge, gorge/onos strategy. You need to go, en masse, and pile in. So your onos dies. Shame. We're talking endgame - you have res to spare. Lerks with adrenaline can Scream and Umbra, so you're all moving at a good speed and with adrenalised umbra you should have faaaar faaaar less bullets to worry about.
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Hmm... I told you about the example where three Onos, two skulks, and a Gorge went in at once. Sure- it wasn't EVERYONE in the game and we didn't have umbra or scream... but in a public server that's as good as you can get. We did jack crap as far as damage goes. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Okay- let's pretend we could have had Lerks screaming and Umbraing and everyone on our side all coordinated. For one thing, we still have a limited amount of time in there. With all the Onos and confusion and such everyone has to attack <u>buildings</u> to get a lasting effect, and on that note we must DESTROY them no matter what. I suppose we could tell half the team to go for the armory, the other half to go for a phase gate.
Perhaps that could work. The big issue is it's far far too hard to set up and IMPOSSIBLE to set up in a pub server. I'm all for games being balanced based on high-level play, but if high-level play has one option to counter a strategy and that option is impossibly difficult to execute then there's a problem. I remember hearing somewhere that aliens aren't supposed to have to coordinate at the Marine's level in the first place.
<b>HERE'S THE PERFECT SOLUTION!!!!</b>
I finally figured it out- it was so obvious. It works in RTSs, and it would work fine here. <b>MAKE RES NODES GIVE OUT LIMITED RESOURCES</b>. Yeah, you heard me. And why not? Part of the problem of turret farms is that since the commander has an undending flow of resources any gains made by the aliens are abolished.
This way I believe a primary node should run out after 30 minutes. Perhaps a secondary mode would last an hour. Is that unreasonable? No. The only problem is that in it's current state NS 2.0 facilitates alien expansions too much. Marines need to be allowed to expand too.
<b>THE OTHER PERFECT SOLUTION</b>
This has already been mentioned- turret farms allowing a limited amount of turrets. How much do turret factories cost anyways?
Either way- why does it fix the problem? It allows for cheap turrets after the initial turret factory investment- promoting building defense at expansions and such. But once you fill out that turret limit, you need to provide another initial investment to create more. Since I don't know the turret factory's cost, I'm not sure how well this would work. But combined with limited resources the choice of where to put a turret factory would be far more strategic.
Again- these are all just random thoughts. I've played a lot of NS recently, and at that since 2.0 release. I still don't consider myself anywhere near an expert. It's obvious what the big problems are when you see them as consistently as I do- much like in Warcraft III version 1.03 where you would see mass casters in every game with Orc. It was clearly a problem. I have no idea if my solutions would work- I'm just throwing them out there as something to think about. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
-JohnnySmash
1.0x - Umbra blocked 88% of bullets, lasted about 10 seconds, and sprayed around the lerk so the lerk was protected as well as his teammates by doing it
2.0 - Umbra blocked 75% of bullets, lasted about 2 seconds, and you have to aim at the floor where your teammates will be in 3 seconds for it to do any good.
2.01c - Umbra blocks 50% of bullets, lasts about 2 seconds, etc...
In short - Umbra isn't as helpful as it used to be. And a lerk can just barely continuously spam Umbra in 2.0 if they have adren and don't fly.
one word: umbra <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG! BILEBOMB! OMG! UMBRA! OMG! ONOS RUSH! OMG! XENO RUNS! OMG! The game should <b>NOT</b> have to be played like this, i mean really.
Step 1: When attacking turret farms, explain to the people going onos that Redeem will do them no good - they'll redeem before they can do anything.
Step 2: Plan your attack. This is probably the hardest step on pubs as it requires people be patient.
Outside the base, form up so that the onos go in first. Explain to the onos that they're not the attack force, they're just the cover. Behind the onos is the gorge who can healspamming the onos so that, coupled with regeneration, the onos lasts long enough to get all the way into base and out of the way for the main attack force. Your main attack force is fades and skulks. Fades will ideally blink to places where the other structures (like the CC) provide them some cover for the turret fire. Skulks xenocide to hopefully catch a GL. In the far back sits the lerk, to spam umbra and primal scream as much as he can.
Step 3: Send in the bait. Someone has to go in and get the GL's firing. The alien team should be getting resources out the wazoo, so don't be terrified to send in a "bait" onos to die or redeem.
Step 4: As soon as the second grenade goes off, the rest of the team charges. Hopefully they should get in just as the GL has turned his attention to reload.
The onos' job is to get in and get the hell out of the way so the fades and skulks can hit their points. Use charge to take down turrets if possible, use devour and that super long tongue of the Onos to suck in a heavy armor if possible. True, the onos will probably die and the HA will be back out, but it means he's out of the fight in the meantime.
The gorges' job is to get in behind the onos with healspray so the onos can do more damage, but once in start landing bilebombs on the turrets, as they're likely to go down quickest. In that particular map, I find that sometimes you can sneak a gorge in around the res tower giving you extra protection while you bilebomb. Although if he can spot the observatory, by all means try to take it out. Commanders tend not to notice when the obseveratory is gone quite as quickly as they do specific turrets.
The skulks' job is to xenocide -- preferably on a guy with a GL, and then return back to the staging area as fast as possible, where they start their upgrades for the next run.
The fades' job is to get in behind the sulks and find cover among the marines upgrade structures. Take out a GL if at all possible, otherwise, just try and stay out of turret fire while doing damage.
Finally, once they've all come in and the turrets are distracted, the lerk follows up by dropping a set of spores on the IP for anybody who pops back in, and spamming scream and umbra as much as possible for the gorge.
With 8 aliens, if all you manage to take out is 3 turrets, you've cost them some res, so are a little ahead of the game, that's of course assuming they didn't use medpacks or lose anybody or anything else. Of course, your onos cost you alot of res, but that's okay, because your skulk bombs didn't cost you much at all, so just reverse who goes skulk and who goes onos.
On the other end of the scale, too often I see these stalemates and part of the reason they last so long is because the marine team doesn't take active measures to try to push back. GL spamming may protect your base, but really won't get you anywhere. GL spamming followed by a fast strike team of JP/SG can allow the marines to push the aliens back. If a small, fast group of marines can break out of the turtle, there's a possibility of taking a back route to a hive, setting up a phase gate, and opening the game wide up again. Even if they don't make it, it will often distract the aliens long enough for a larger force to expand beyond the base.
I don't look as stalemates as non-fun. I look at them as examples of poor playing on both sides. (And in the heat of action, I'll readily admit I'm one of those not thinking things through well enough)
.Ive never taken redemp once as onos. and regen is only not as good when attacking the last base with rines and turrets guarding it
GL spam is continual. I've managed to have grenade spam in one corridor going for 25 minutes consecutively, only stopping when one marine needed to go to the toilet. Soon picked up again though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Step 4: As soon as the second grenade goes off, the rest of the team charges. Hopefully they should get in just as the GL has turned his attention to reload.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never need to reload, if they know that you can stand next to armory and hit use. This way you NEVER have to reload the GL and can keep continually spamming for as long as you like.
I say this again, you have NOT played a professional turret farmer. The turrets aren't the problem here, the GL spam is. You will NEVER EVER get close enough to do a thing to the turrets.
I've seen it done. I've also seen the cooperative play on pub servers ESPECIALLY when people get bored of bouncing off farms and decide to work together.
If people don't cooperate, thats not the mods fault. No "one player" nor "one species" will break a farm. Otherwise the game gets real boring real quickly.
GL spam? Onos go first, take the hits, people come in behind. Takes a bit of work but all things do.
On Pub servers, players learn, or they lose. IMHO the answer isn't a broad sweeping change just so uncoordinated attacks actually work.
Once again, you've never seen a professional idiot do this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If people don't cooperate, thats not the mods fault. No "one player" nor "one species" will break a farm. Otherwise the game gets real boring real quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know, but umbra doesn't do anything to GL's, and the GL splash damage will kill ALL lower lifeforms in 1 hit or less.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->GL spam? Onos go first, take the hits,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll just cut you off right here, the onos CAN'T do this because their hitbox is bugged. Grenades actually rarely hit an onos (if ever) so they still go and smash the aliens BEHIND them. Onos rarely get hit by grenades for this odd reason, but it works against the aliens because the lesser lifeforms are all butchered. The onos then either gets butchered by the turrets or shotguns. I think you need to play a GOOD turret farmer/GL spammer. Then you'll see this "If aliens..blah blah" is utter rubbish.
I'm not saying that the TF won't go down, eventually it will, but it will be a couple of hours if it does.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On Pub servers, players learn, or they lose. IMHO the answer isn't a broad sweeping change just so uncoordinated attacks actually work. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uncoordinated attacks aren't a problem, the fact all alien lifeforms but onos are massacred WELL before they get NEAR a turret farm is.
Incidently, grenade damage in 2.01b is 125, makes it easier to TF hole up than in normal 2.0. That is what I spend most of my time playing.
Its pretty stupid for an admin not to put a timer rotation on Maps.
Farming = boring.
~Jason
get REGEN instead of redeam and retreat when your at half health. then regen then attack.. rinse and repeat
.Ive never taken redemp once as onos. and regen is only not as good when attacking the last base with rines and turrets guarding it
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I don't think you understand- you don't last long enough to walk in the room, do ANYTHING, then walk out. You walk in, run to the armory, gore it once, and redeem. Sure- without redeem I would have lasted for like 130 health more. Maybe I could have gored the building again. Then I wait 2-5 minutes for 100 more res. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
You've never taken Redemption with Onos? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> I suppose if you don't want to have the most powerful killer constatly and generate 100s of res worth of advantage over the marines then that's just fine.
-JohnnySmash
Step 1: Read the bloody topic and replies.
Step 2: Plan your post. This is probably the hardest step on boards as it requires people be patient.
Once you have read, and comprehended the posts and discussions offered, prepare your counter argument.
Step 3: Preview your post and weed out any grammatical and spelling errors.
Step 4: After all that, you too can be a productive member of a forum, instead of being redundant.
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Multiple people shooting at it will take it down. I hear shotguns are good for this. Remember that if the Marine has no extra equipment the Onos is basically just teleporting the Marine back to his base... meanwhile the Onos' 100 res has already been invested.
Does an Onos make up for it's 100 res resource-wise vs. the marines? Not usually. It just has super-teleport-marines-back-to-infantry-portal-power. And it's far from unkillable- except with Redemption. That's another issue. I think Redemption is overpowered, generating a huge resource advantage on the aliens' part and changing several fundamentals of the resource model. But it might be designed like that. I don't know.
-JohnnySmash
Idiot's fault, not the mods. If they don't work together, they cant blame the game.
"I know, but umbra doesn't do anything to GL's, and the GL splash damage will kill ALL lower lifeforms in 1 hit or less."
Umbra stops the turrets so that the onos can get past the room entrance and draw attention and GL fire. Stomp stops the GL spam, sometimes enough to get aliens in.
"I'll just cut you off right here, the onos CAN'T do this because their hitbox is bugged."
If you've two onos leading the train (perhaps I should start calling onos plural oni, for clarification) then the grenade more often detonates on the Onos. I realise the hitbox is not perfect but when oni get into a room they tend to attract spam.
"I think you need to play a GOOD turret farmer/GL spammer. Then you'll see this "If aliens..blah blah" is utter rubbish."
I see, so just because I'm not complaining about a 30 minute uncoordinated push into base, that somehow means the players I face aren't good? There's nothing wrong with the calibre of the people I play against, and I find it cheap that someone is implying they're not good in their absence. You don't hear anyone calling you a nub alien just because you can't crack a base, so I'd appreciate it if you don't imply I play nubs.
Yes it takes time to crack a base. If there was some magic strat the broke a base in seconds, the game would be pointless. Marines would be unable to hold any point on the map because you'd just use the exploit to crack their base. At the same time I don't presume to know all the strats. For example, I've not mentioned the idea of leaving the marines alone so that they push out and allow you to cut them off.
I've been on the marine side and seen grenade spam at work - continuous spam. And the onos still get into base, the strategy goes awol and suddenly there's fades and everything pouring in through the door.
"fact all alien lifeforms but onos are massacred WELL before they get NEAR a turret farm is."
Which frankly I've never seen. you need to get in the door to see a real turret farm, turret farms outside of base just get levelled because you've to go out TO them.
"Incidently, grenade damage in 2.01b is 125, makes it easier to TF hole up than in normal 2.0. That is what I spend most of my time playing."
Well IMHO those are still beta patches, so *shrug*.
Most times a Farm seems to happen on the servers I am on, the Comm is ejected and a marine who knows how lame a Farm is, recycles most of them!
Run in and die one by one.
Where do you think the Marines get the res to replace their stuff from? Stupid skulks running in and dying. Yes, it IS hard to break a *well made* turretfarm with GL spam but not impossible. It just takes teamwork, resources and patience.
Oh, and it also takes people realising that redemption Onos sucks at finishing the game. In this cas,e a regen Onos will be much more valuable.